accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

[ivan salis]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

but it still gives you a rough starting point

 

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[Cappy Z.]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

It is my understanding that the salvage boats can't get closer to the beach for salvaging when the water is only 6-8 feet deep. I find it astonishing that someone hasn't figured out a way to dredge the areas right near the shoreline. There must be a lot of treasure near shore under the sand. My two cents.

 

[itmaiden]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Did he make a "wreckage map " ? Surely there are some wreck maps out there in somebody's archives from then. By the time Spain or anyone else got there on later trips for salvage = the seas and the Indians, as well as the survivors would have used the wood for fuel etc. Everybody's been working with those "rough" starting points.

I would think they would be in the records of the House of Aragon.

itmaiden

but it still gives you a rough starting point

 

[armchairQB30]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Has anyone on here ever taken all of this information and tried some computer modeling?

Educated guessing sometimes works.

 

[itmaiden]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

I've been wondering this myself. Fishers did make maps of wreckage as part of the archaeological work they had to do, but I doubt anyone has previously done an overlay of possible hurricane movement in relation to wreckage found. (They probably are now).

I've been trying to visuallize these wrecks based on Fishers online data and other information I have read, or discovered myself. The angle the Hurricane came in at is crucial to all of this. Some think it came from dead East, old stories say the winds were blowing NW. My personal opinion is that is was blowing NW. I am working on the angle based on my own research and any online data.

If I knew a good computer guru I could trust we could work on this together.

Hint, I do think it was a wide angle in relation to the coast which may account for the difference in opinion as far as approaching direction.

itmaiden

Has anyone on here ever taken all of this information and tried some computer modeling?

Educated guessing sometimes works.

 

[itmaiden]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Down.

Which direction did the tons of Gold end up at?

Dell

 

[Sorroque]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

signumops

I have a niece. She has a maiden name of some old French Tampa Bay pirates. Bagget, as in, Baggess. Shrimp Boat "Rebbeca Lee", her fathers floundered vessel on Cape Canaveral.
She has a 2 year degree in computer technology. + 2 year degree in photography, + a Masters Degree in meteorology. A RON JON Surf Shop Surfing Instructor! I am so proud of her.
She is playing New mother at this time, but she may have some skills you are interested in or know someone who does have the skills you are looking for.
About the direction of the hurricane so possibility of where another ship went down according to your theory in model.
Me. I think it was across the state like Charlie. But Jeanne came threw that area like the way you figure.
I found the symbol, avatar, during Gordon. That pesky storm that stalled off the coast for 3 whole months in 1994 into 1995.
[email protected]

 

[GOHO]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!


From all my work on 1715 fleet for the past 17 years i have found that the ships all came ashore in a similar crescent or "U" shaped pattern. The ships were blown down from the north then east then south east then west..... I have lots of data to back this up. In order for this pattern to happen the hurricane had to have come in from the east or south east.... which is the direction that most Atlantic storms hit us in....

Most of the upper structure ended up near the beach and travelled north for many miles.... The "Gold" travelled with it spilling little pieces as it traveled...

 

[itmaiden]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

SE going NW

Much of the debris I have seen confirms pretty much what you are saying here at least for the upper part of the fleet. But the wild card is wave direction which can be varied in hurricane winds because there are smaller wind currents inside the larger ones which can blow in other directions. I was fascinated by the remnants of a tornado that came across Arkansas. I should have made that plural. The 2 tornados had already lost their form by the time they crossed Western Arkansas going to Eastern Arkansas, but the main one was quite large and did incredible destruction before it arrived on the opposite side of the state. I stood outside and was awestruck by the unusual and strange wind patterns. There were the outer swirling winds which were by this time at a much lower and gentler speed. As it moved counterclockwise East, other winds within were blowing down, up southward and back up again,as well as winds blowing in other directions. The most fascinating one I saw I call a "starburst". It was like a mini-explosion of wind and it blew out in all directions like when fireworks go off. The effect other winds within a hurricane have on waves and in combination with obstacles such as reefs provide varience.

But the main pattern of Hurricane movement does make a good model as a starting point for tracking the debris. Now add weight and ship condition/construction in as a factor. The Flagship purportedly headed East into the wind, and we do not know how many other ships may have been doing the same. I suspect this decision is what resulted in the account of the Flagship tearing apart into shreds. Counterforce such as this would be extremely damaging.

This is a good subject, and provides us all with much thought and more calculated work to do in locating the wreckage.

itmaiden

From all my work on 1715 fleet for the past 17 years i have found that the ships all came ashore in a similar crescent or "U" shaped pattern. The ships were blown down from the north then east then south east then west..... I have lots of data to back this up. In order for this pattern to happen the hurricane had to have come in from the east or south east.... which is the direction that most Atlantic storms hit us in....

Most of the upper structure ended up near the beach and travelled north for many miles.... The "Gold" travelled with it spilling little pieces as it traveled...

 

[GOHO]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

I believe once they realized that the ships distruction was eminent they grounded the vessels to try and save as much as possible. The only ship that did not break into pieces was Lima's because i believe he was in the eye of the storm..

 

[billinstuart]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

I have read accounts that have documented a massive storm crossing the southern Bahamas a day or so before the fleet wrecked. These storms often follow the warm water of the gulf stream and intensify. The leading edge of the storm has winds from the east, and below the eye, from the west. All hurricanes (northern hemisphere) spin counterclockwise, just the opposite of what you would expect.

 

[GOHO]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

It all depends where you are in reference to the storm... A storm like Jean (2004) that came in from the east the leading edge at Sebastian was NNE.... I was on the beach as the storm came in!!! as the storm moved inland the winds became more E then SE then S.... once the storm passed the winds were out of the west....

The strongest winds were out of the east as the eye passed south of Sebastian.... I think this storm was real close to what happened in 1715..... If the storm had moved N then the Griffon would have known that a storm had passed and wipped out the fleet.... so it must have moved east to west because the Griffon didn't even know a storm had hit...

I found a large anchor on Cabin wreck a few years ago out in about 40+' of water... the anchor is dug in with one fluke and the shank is pointed 190 degrees toward a small ballast pile in 30' of water due east of Cabin main pile... The anchor shank is 9' long with a large ring and the 1 fluke that was facing up is now gone.... I believe this was a last chance effort to hold the ship from the reefs but once they realized they were doomed they let the ship come in to shore. The direction the anchor is pointed tells me what direction the ship blew down on.....

 

[itmaiden]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Interesting that the anchor was still wedged in. Thanks for sharing !

itmaiden

I found a large anchor on Cabin wreck a few years ago out in about 40+' of water... the anchor is dug in with one fluke and the shank is pointed 190 degrees toward a small ballast pile in 30' of water due east of Cabin main pile... The anchor shank is 9' long with a large ring and the 1 fluke that was facing up is now gone.... I believe this was a last chance effort to hold the ship from the reefs but once they realized they were doomed they let the ship come in to shore. The direction the anchor is pointed tells me what direction the ship blew down on.....

 

[billinstuart]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

The eye will be on a line 90 degrees to the direction of the wind...North wind (FROM the north), the eye is due east. This agrees with your assessment, Goho.

Let's speculate on this a little further. The winds from the east from the storm form huge waves and a modest increase in sea level in our east coast area. Once the eye passes, the waves diminish, and the winds from the west are partly broken by the barrier island. The point being..the impact from the storm is greater at the beginning than the end, even if the winds at the end were stronger. The ships were already wrecked, thus were unlikely to be blown offshore.

Thoughts?

 

[ivan salis]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

I'm glad to see this thread is stirring up peoples thoughts and freindly debate

 

[mad4wrecks]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Over the past 40 years, various salvors have figured out where much of the 1715 wreckage came to rest. There is much more treasure and artifacts to be found however. (And a few entire missing ships)

What is obvious is that we need to stop looking in the same places that have been hit continuously for 40 years. That is why Taffi Fisher is changing some of the rules in 2010.

Trying to recreate the hurricane helps...but only if we know where each ship was in relation to others when the storm hit and how a particular type of ship might react in hurricane force winds.

What GOHO mentioned is correct......after the ships ground onto the reefs and the upper decks came ashore, much wreckage was carried north for many miles, dropping bits and pieces along the way.

He also has the right idea, keep magging away and checking the hits, and punching holes in new areas that have never been worked. It takes time, but eventually someone is going to discover something interesting.

 

[signumops]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Goldminer49 quoted a passage to me from Mila's hurricane book for an event in 1715. While Spanish authorities in Havana and elsewhere said nothing about it, seems there was a storm that passed across Hispaniola at the appropriate time, northbound. Now, not much was said, if anything, in Freeport, about this event, but, I have constructed a graphic model (I love playing with my crayons!) that takes the storm north from Hispaniola and round-house punches the Florida coast after grazing the northnern Bahama bank. This would be in keeping with Bill Moore's contention that the storm was 'south' trending. Its an unusual circumstance that might be recalled from Katrina who passed across the peninsula farther south in a similar south-trending arc before curving north toward the Mississippi delta.



GOHO states that his observations of the 1715 wrecks would indicate a U shaped dispersal. This would seem to hold true for the Cabin wreck and for the Nieves (Douglas Beach if you prefer to argue the real identity) if you look at the mapping produced by Carl Clausen and Lou Ullian in "Pieces Of Eight". I don't have much experience with the Nieves, but I do have some with the Cabin wreck site, so, just for chuckles, I have some pretty decent rectified comparisons that support GOHO's observations... to a point. The next illustration is an aerial of the Cabin site shot in 1967, a year before I actually got to work there. The photo is important because the buildings, as they are located in this photo, can be used to inverse the bearing shots that State inspectors made while working on the Real 8 boats.



The next illustration is a rectified scan of the Clausen-Ullian map published in 1966. I would have to think that most of this material was evident to the eye without excavation, per se, for the most part. This was before anybody else actually got to dig there (well, yes, there was a hard-hatter from Fort Pierce that took his shot early on, and who knows what McKee may have done there, but, I stand un-corrected at the moment). The rectification was done using the previous photo along with some other DEP setback monumentation with all of the samples cast in State Plane coordinates, NAD83, Zone 901, Survey Feet.



I've overlaid the Clausen-Ullian map with transparency on the photo to support the fidelity of the map in this next illustration. U shaped might be better described as a 'checkmark'. Don't laugh: this discrimination may lead to a pot of gold!



The Fishers provide their contractors with data in the form of plots for each of the sites under their control. These plots are generally on E size paper, in color, with a key and sexigesimal degree grid overlay. They are invaluable. But, one must remember that some of the data may be questionable... after all, the State quit providing data-recorders many years ago, and there are any number of reasons why contractors may fail to accurately report their fixes. None-the-less, these plots provide us with some invigorating evidence which both supports the U shape dispersal theory, along with evidence that there may be more to consider. If you have never seen one of these plots, here's one for the Cabin wreck that I scanned and rectified to match my mapping software so that I can put our blowers where nobody has previously dug (supposedly). The pink circles represent holes dug that produced nothing. The blue holes represent holes that produced silver. There are numerous other items that are color coded, and there are alpha-numeric markers in the circles which you can not see at this scale. Obviously there was silver found all over the place. The grids each represent a square of about 64 feet on a side with each tick measuring about 6.4 feet. The average circle symbol is about 18 feet across at this scale.



I took the Fisher chart and laid it over the Clausen-Ullian map to produce the next semi-transparent illustration.



Previously, I wrote that I thought the storm was very large and I still think that it re-organized over the Bahamas and really built a huge circulation. In my first illustration the eyewall is about 112 miles in diameter. As the center of circulation approached the fleet, as seen in the next illustration, the northern-most vessels were driven ashore in a shorter period of time, while the souther-most members of the fleet were probably driven to shore on a more exaggerated tangency than those toward the north. It would be hard to illustrate this without resorting to animation. Its important to remember that the winds in the forward-right quadrant of the storm are the firecest (I messed up my explanation of this in my previous post... I was thinking of a north-bound storm at the time, not one on the path I illustrate here).



Moving at 5 miles an hour, it would take about 24 hours to pass the area of Vero as seen in the next illustration. Therefore, if Echeverz was really at the Popa, which I think was probably in the area of south Vero Beach, he would experience a 'second storm' a day after being wrecked. If a ship was below the east-west plane of the storm, it has more of a tendancy, in this model of being swamped further from shore. What does this mean for the vessel supposedly lost below the present-day Hutchinson Island power plant ?



The rear action of the eye-wall is definitely the one of interest! The rear eye-wall did what the forward eye-wall did not do... it spread wreckage back out into water that could support the reduced weight of the shattered timbers, floating bodies, boxes, hull parcels and baggage. This means that we can continue to find more treasure in subsequent explorations. That's why this whole study is worthwhile.

 

[Salvor6]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

Great work Terry and I think you are on to something. I have something to add. In 1986 Spyglass Publications came out with a chart called "Old Shipwrecks of Florida's S.E. Coast" and it has computer generated spread patterns of the 1715 fleet. Here is a scan of the cabin wreck. You will notice it matches your spread pattern exactly!

 

[Sorroque]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

There is an Ancient Egyptian tool. I cannot recall what the name of it is. Maybe someone is familiar with it. It goes like this;
There are 2 dials and a peepwindow on the spin dial. It sits on a tripod. 4" tall.
There are 40 Egyptian calendar Years. Say you were born mid October 1960. That would make you a Calendar 13. Dial a year and month to find the calendar year.
Okay, then you find The years that came on calender 13 and notice the identical, or similar, type weather patterns. Just like the year you were born.
What I am saying is August 1st. 1715 has calendar year number, between 1-40.
Since hurricane records have been kept and sweep through now all the calendar years, there maybe this similarity and to modern day!
Pretty cool instruments. I know they exist and have seen one in The Man Myth and Magic Encyclopedia. My father owns one, but I do not know where he put it.
I have talked to Egyptians of modern times including Hieroglyphic experts of Egypt. They did not know the machine.
There are only 24 volumes to man myth and magic. Cocoa Beach Public Library has the set. It may take awhile.
Update:01/04/10: At Library now. Have #1 in hand. Dial not in "Aztec" section either. So, back to good old dad. He has it in a storage unit . This could take really long to get because he is on Java. He has the key to it..
Update:12/30/2009 My father wrote in emailfrom other side of world,Retired Satellite Communications Sr. Specialist:

"Do you know what it is called? Maybe "A Perpetual Calendar" BUT remember . . . it is valid only for the Gregorian Calendar years, not for years when the old Julian Calendar were used. If you need more info on that, Google "Julian Calendar" and "Gregorian Calendar". Lots of interesting info there.
Archaeologists, treasure Divers, and 1715 Plate Fleet enthusiasts are trying to piece together the weather pattern of 08/01/1715. Is that 08 Jan or Aug 01? Probably the latter when a hurricane sank one of the Spanish treasure ships.
What calendar year would that be? Don't understand the question -- 1715 was 1715 Gregorian. Then from there we could match the weather pattern similarities and maybe figure which direction it came from. Weather is like women's behavior - rarely predictable and behavior today can never be used as a logical determinate of what it was previously (except "unpredictable)."
Sorroque,'Perhaps his Best man Burt Bostram,professor of Astronomy has something. Arizona State University'.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: accounting for the 1715 fleet vessels by their own " offical records"

there are patterns to things that we as humans do not seem to connect or get due to our short life spans * say halleys comet for exsample ( how long did it take mankind to "notice" it and time its passing cycle ?)----- with its orbit or cycle being 76 years --a person would say need to be say 5 and see it again at say 81 to remember it having occured before and then recotd the "prediction" that it would occur again in 76 years --often there are patterns that due to their long time lengths --might not have been "noticed" by mankind since they span more than a normal lifetime. but a careful study of the past may reveal --unknown knowledge