NOAA, Spain Announce Cooperative Arrangement

mariner

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Apr 4, 2005
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VOC,

Michael Turner, wh is the source of information on the web site you quote, is a nice chap, but like many others, he accepts the official Hakluyt account of Drake's voyage as if it were written in stone. This account places Drake's anchorage in the region of San Francisco, but it is very easy to demonstrate that it is unreliable, and was falsified in a number of places for political reasons. This was because the Queen and Drake wanted to keep secret from arch-rivals Spain the fact that Drake had been searching for the Pacific entrance to the fabled North West Passage. In fact, Drake believed that he had found the start of the Passage, and immediately he got back to England, he began to organize a return trip to the Pacific. He was promising investors 7 times their investment, and saying that he would make the trip in less than one year because he had found a short way back. I am pretty certain that what he did was to sail into the Juan de Fuca Strait that separates Vancouver Island from the US-Canadian mainland, and went reached Georgia Sound, before giving up the search, because he could not find the next stage of the Passage. This is because it did not exist in that area, of course. He spent teh summer at Whale Cove, on the Oregon Coast, repairing the Golden Hind, and when he went back to England with most of the treasure he had captured from the Spanish, he left behind the small Spanish ship that he had captured off Costa Rica, along with a crew opf about two dozen, so that they could winter on the Oregon Coast, and then resume the exploration of the Passage early in the spring.

When Drake got back to England, a great veil of secrecy was thrown around his voyage. All his logs and charts were confiscated by the Queen and never seen again, his crew were sworn to secrecy about tehir movements, under pain of death, and no accounts of the voyage were allowed to be published for about ten years. When the official account was published in 1589, the Queen was still not willing to reveal details of Drake's search for the Northwest Passage, so the account was falsified. The most northerly latitude quoted was 42 degrees, and his anchorage as 38 degrees.

However, in teh British Library, there are two hand-written accounts of the voyage saying that Drake went as far as 48 degrees searching for the Passage, but being unable to find it, returned to 44 degrees, which is on the Oreggon coast, where he repaired his ship. These accounts were not published in Drake's time, so were not subject to the same Royal censorship as the Hakluyt account. Hakluyt worked for the Queen's devious Secretary of State, Sir Francis Walsingham, who was responsible for relations with Spain. Part of the reason for the secrecy was also to protect the crew that Drake had left behind, though I think they were long dead by then. I think I know where the wreck of their ship is, and sets of skeletons were found there eighty years ago.

There is evidence that Drake wanted to publish his own account of the voyage in 1592, but the Queen would not allow it, so the secret died with Drake and the Queen.

I published this theory in the magazine of the Royal Geographical Society way back in July 1981, and a few years ago, a guy called Sam Bawlf, who was a business associate of my brother, published a book called "The Secret Voyage of Sir Francis Drake" in which he extensively plagiarized my research and findings. (The b*****d)

I am only now getting round to putting my research onto a web-site.

Incidentally, Drake did the same thing about his discovery that the Atlantic and Pacific met below the southern tip of South America. If you read Hakluyt's account, you would not know this. At that time, it was generally believed that the south bank of the Magellan Strait was the start of a large Antarctic continent. Finding that there was an alternative sea route south of the Strait was far too important a discovery to share with Spain.

Hands up anybody who thinks that a Government would never put out a false account of an important discovery!

As I said in a previous post, I will provide details of the web site in about a week's time. Meanwhile, don't believe everything you read.

Mariner
 

old man

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Mariner, Can't wait to see the web site. Sounds like you did an extensive amount of Research across the Pond.
I think you should write a factual account of Drakes experiences and put them in book form. I'd buy a copy.
 

mariner

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Apr 4, 2005
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Old Man,

I'm looking for a publisher for a book I have outlined featuring shipwrecks associated with Drake, Thomas Cavendish and Hernan Cortes.

Because Bawlf plagiarized quite a lot of my findings about Drake "discovering" Western Canada and perhaps SE Alaska, I thought I needed to draw on a wider canvas than just Drake.

As one literary agent said to me: "Bawlf has taken the wind out of your SALES", which I thought was amusing.

In all the things that really matter, in life, however, I am the luckiest man alive. My son in Singapore tells me that a third grandchild is imminent.

Mariner
 

old man

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Mariner, Congratulations on the new family member. I used to live in Singapore a long time ago when I was working as a Diver in the region. I envy your son. I met a lot of nice people over there.
 

Darren in NC

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mariner said:
Because Bawlf plagiarized quite a lot of my findings...

I assume you've spoken with him. What was his response?

I am the luckiest man alive. My son in Singapore tells me that a third grandchild is imminent.

Congratulations! :icon_thumright:
 

VOC

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Thanks for that Mariner.

Very interesting reply, look forward to your web site, the Drake story is full of myths and legends in the UK as he was a national hero for many years.

I think he must have had a great "spin doctor" or marketing team at the time as fact and fiction has definitely got mixed up over the years.
 

mariner

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Darren,

Sam was a professional politician before he becme an instant expert on Drake, so he just lies bare faced about stealing my work, and claims that he always gives me credit where due, but that's all baloney. In the book, Sam does try to draw some conclusions of his own, but because he never did the basic research, and therefore does not really understand the subject, these are ridiculous. For example, he spends lots of time in the book detailing how names on the maps of Ortelius were derived all from Drake's voyage, but anybody with a knowledge of west coast history knows that these were all named by Cabrillo in his 1542-43 expedition.

Worse thing is that Sam starts his acknowledgements by thanking me for re-stimulating (!) his interest in Drake. He's a pariah in British Columbia Historical circles and he keeps a very low profile, staying home and counting the money that my research generated for him. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!

Thanks for the congrats. My wife is now intently studying airline schedules for the best way to combine flights to England and Singapore so she can visit the grandkids.

I need to find a big cache of gold quickly!! Any ideas? ;D

Mariner.



VOC,

The Queen's plot to disguise Drake's true movements had big long-term consequences for the USA. In the 1800s when negotiations took place to divide up the old Oregon territory, which consisted of all the land west of the Rockies lying between Spanish California and Russian Alaska, discovery and official acts of possession played a surprisingly important part. By that time, Spain had given up all claims to territory in the North West, and British rights north of the Juan de Fuca Strait were well established through Cook, Meares and others, but America's claim to the area depended almost entirely on the fact that Robert Gray had found the Columbia River and claimed that area for the USA in 1792. The British negotiators several times brought up Drake's claiming of the land at New Albion, as he had named it, but the US delegates always dismissed this because Hakluyt placed his anchorage near San Francisco. They argued that any claims Drake might have had were superceded by the Spanish occupation of California. Had it been known then that Drake's act of possession had taken place in Oregon, that act might well have taken precedence over Gray's claim, and the whole area might have become British. The US territory would have been limited to the land east of the Rockies. No sea to shining sea, and Canadian health benefits for the people of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and parts of Wyoming and Montana. Sometimes life's big decisions swing on a very small pivot.

Mariner
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY

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Congratulations, Mariner :thumbsup:
Looking forward to your web site. I have read Drake by Stephen Coote and was surprised to learn that in his early years he learn't to sail and sailed with
the Spanish.
He used to sell slaves to the Spanish, they should have paid him what he asked !
Cheers, Ossy
 

mariner

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Apr 4, 2005
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Ossy,

I have read Coote's book, and wondered why he bothered to write it. Little is known about Drake's early life. He moved from Devon at an early stage and learned to sail around the coast of Kent, near London. I would be surprised if he sailed with the Spanish, but who knows? It would not be surprising if he was involved in slavery in his early days, but he later developed some interesting relationships with Black and Indigenous Communities.

On the basis of "my enemies' enemies are my friends", he developed close friendship with the Cimeronnes, the community of free black people in mainland Panama, who had mostly escaped slavery under the Spanish, and they helped him, for example, to raid the gold mule train that was crossing the Isthmus.

He became particularly friendly with one of their leaders, Diego, and he stayed with Drake for many years as a kind of manservant. He is often said to have been Drake's slave, but I don't think that was their relationship. He accompanied Drake on his voyage around the world, but was wounded off the coast of Chile, when Drake's party was attacked by the local inhabitants. Drake said that this was because they mistook him for a Spaniard. Whenever Drake came across black people who were Spanish slaves, he made a point of freeing them. This happened on several occasions during his famous voyage.

Drake also made a point of establishing good relations with the local Indians at New Albion, and in the East Indies.

I'm not saying that Drake was a Saint, and I think that his motivation was to build up a network of allies against Spain, but his behaviour was in interesting comparison with some other explorers of that time, such as Martin Frobisher.

Of course, I think it is almost certain that the Indians who were so friendly towards Drake at New Albion paid a terrible price after he left in terms of being ravaged by European diseases such as smallpox, measles and TB.

Ossie, I am sure you don't think I am Spanish-bashing with these comments about Spanish slaves. It's just the way things were in those days.

Mariner
 

Panfilo

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Feb 20, 2007
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Mariner, very interesting all your research about Drake and I would commend your decision on writing a book, it would appear you have very extensive knowledge that has not been published and many people would benefit from sharing it.
You are referring to the “negros cimarrón” whose descendants now live here in the Darien region between Panama and Colombia.
Panfilo
 

mariner

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Apr 4, 2005
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Panfilo,

You are correct. I misspelt the name of the Cimaronnes.

Thanks for the comments.

Mariner

____________________________________________

To get back to shipwrecks:

I believe that the small Spanish ship that Drake captured and left behind on the American coast is buried under a tidal mudflat near the mouth of the Salmon River, just north of Lincoln City, Oregon. It is right at the end of Three Rox Road.

I think it is about ten feet down and the mud is heavily impregnated by salt. I think I know its exact location, and had a caesium magnetometer survey carried out, which revealed a smattering of ferrous material there, and then tried to have a ground penetrating radar survey carried out, which would have revealed the presence of any non-ferrous metals. However, the gpr could only penetrate three foot because of the salt and other minerals.

I believe that when part of Drake's crew agreed to stay behind and try again to explore the Northwest Passage, they would have insisted on getting there and then their share of the plunder, and that Drake would probably have given them part of the 26 tons of silver that he took from the Cacafuego. I think that the local Indians probably killed the partial crew as European diseases started to take their toll. They probably stripped the ship of its iron, to make tools or weapons, but I don't think that bars of silver would have been of any interest or value to them, so any silver might well be there, and I would like to see if I can detect it remotely.

The mudflat is exposed for two or three hours at very low tides, and you can walk over the wreck site, even if it is a bit sloppy. I had thought of getting hold of a PI detector, but am not sure if it will penetrate the salt-impregnated mud, and not sure if it will detect non-ferrous materials. I don't know much about other sub-bottom profiling technology.

If I could establish that there were silver bars there, I would try to recover one somehow (with agreement of the State) as that would almost certainly identify the ship. There is no way that this ship will ever be able to be recovered for profit, and it would be very costly to even attempt because of the tides, but it would be so important historically that something might be able to be done.

Any ideas on how to detect possible non-ferrous metals in this situation?

Mariner
 

MORE AND BEYOND OSSY

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Mariner, I am also very interested In Francis Drake, and can't wait for your web site, and especially your book.
I have only read Coote's book, and that is where my information comes from.
It is sad to read how the slaves were treated like cattle, Drake was very smart and used this to his advantage.
I hope you will sign a copy of your book for me.
Cheers, Ossy
 

Ghengis415

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You guys know more about this San Agustin wreck than most locals here in San Francisco Bay Area! Other than locals who grew up in Pt Reyes area, very few people here in CA know one of the oldest known shipwrecks on the us west coast lies just off the beach, buried in 30+ feet of sand. I haven't seen this story covered in any of the locals newspapers since the late '90s. Its my understanding that, after litigating to prevent private excavation efforts on the site in the '80s, the NPS (National Park Service) made one failed effort to locate the wreck in the late '96-'98, but they have not been back out on the water in over ten years now. Budgetary restraints and a more recent (and sometimes mindless) NPS western region "cookie-cutter" policy template geared towards leaving NPS managed natural resources pristine make it highly unlikely this wreck will ever be recovered - this really bothers me. If NPS isn't going to do anything with it, they should let public/private trust(s) be formed to recover the wreck in an environmentally responsible way. I think the hull is down there and would provide an unbelievable historical resource.
 

FISHEYE

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NOAA’s mission is to understand and predict changes in the Earth's environment, from the depths of the ocean to the surface of the sun, and to conserve and manage our coastal and marine resources.


NOAA needs to stick with what it knows best and to stay out of the shipwreck biz.They are just like gov traitors conspiring with spain.
 

cuzcosquirrel

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I will be out on that beach tomorrow morning looking for porcelin. I have only been out there a couple of times this year so far due to the weather and school. The sand is really high this year because of the storms and has pushed out the end of the beach about 100 yards. There is another additional sand island out in the middle of the channel where the breakers usually come in over the rocks.
 

Escudoman

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Cornelius is dead on. My father has been to the site and investigated it. Being raised on the Ca coast and diving since he was a kid the locals knew what was going on. Marx gave it his best shot and it has no more treasure value than the beeswax wreck of Ore. Plenty of archeological value though. There are other Manilla wrecks though on the Pacific coast that do have treasure value. NOAA needs to but out. Ca will never issue permits.
Gerrison "Scurvydog"
 

mariner

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Escudoman,

Welcome to the forum.

So what other Manila Galleon wrecks are there on the Pacific Coast, other than the Beeswax ship at Nehalem? (and not that the San Agustin was a Manila Galleon)

Mariner

:coffee2:
 

cuzcosquirrel

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Here is part of an adviso letter sent to Manila from Spain.



By decrees of his Majesty, of January 11, 1593, and of July 9 and 5, 1595, the trade of the Western Indias with China and the Filipinas Islands
is prohibited. It is only permitted therein that the citizens of the Filipinas may trade with Nueva Espana; and that two ships, each of no more than three hundred toneladas, shall sail from Nueva Espana every year, in which may be sent 250,000 pesos of Tepuzque [6] in coin,
and which may carry back the proceeds thereof in merchandise, which, under fixed penalties, shall not exceed another 250,000 pesos--that
is, in all, 500,000 pesos.

Notwithstanding these prohibitions, and although the same is also commanded by other decrees to be strictly observed, two million reals are usually taken out of the Indias for the Filipinas, according to advices from the viceroy of Nueva Espana, and from Senor Don Bernardino de Avellaneda.

Second Point: To whom it is permitted to trade and traffic in the Filipinas Islands.

By the aforesaid decree, it is permitted solely to the citizens of the said islands, for the space of six years. This license is not to
be renewed, and trade and commerce is unqualifiedly prohibited to any other person whatsoever of the Western Indias, under the penalty of
confiscation of his merchandise.

Nevertheless, under cover of commissions, the citizens of both Piru and Nueva Espana engage in trade, and they send their money in the ships going from Nueva Espana--some registered, and some secretly.

Third Point: That Chinese merchandise be not brought to Piru.

By the same decree it is ordered that the merchandise brought to Nueva Espana from the Filipinas be not taken to Piru and Tierra Firme; and that the goods which had already been brought be disposed of within four years. By another decree of the same date, like commands were given; and that the merchandise brought to Nueva Espana be either consumed there or sent to Espana.

But nevertheless, this merchandise is taken to Piru under pretense of being that of Castilla. Hence arise many difficulties, and the commerce
of Espana with Piru and Tierra Firme is ceasing, and merchandise from Espana is not sent to Piru. If this be not checked within a few years, it is agreed by all that the trade of Espana in merchandise with Tierra Firme, Piru, and Nueva Espana will cease.



This shows some of the stuff I was talking about, with there being a great concern that Peru was monopolizing the galleon trade network at this time. The Phillipine Islands, volume 12.

Here is a little more showing two ships from Peru and what they did about it:



That ships be bought on his Majesty's account; and those which have already been bought. Until the new ships shall be built, the viceroy has supplied the line with ships in place of those which were lost. He commanded one to be bought from the mariscal Gabriel de Ribera. That and the "Santa Potenciana" were conveyed [to the islands] by Don Pedro de Acuna; and also two ships from Piru were in his convoy, moderately laden with freight. Grace was granted, in the name of his Majesty, for some permissions for carrying money and a quantity of freight. This was given as to private persons, but not that the ships should be navigated on their account or under their administration, or that they should exercise any more authority than that of a passenger. This did not deprive the city of Manila of any of the six hundred toneladas which could be shipped, but merely utilized the surplus space of the ship, thereby doing no damage to the citizens of Manila.

Sire:

On the fourth of the present month there left this port the ship "Nuestra Se ora de la Antigua," one of the two from Peru that I brought in the convoy last year, with the reinforcements of troops, arms, and military supplies which came to these islands. On the morning of the next day the other ship, called the "San Alifonso," left; and in the afternoon arrived the advices and despatches from General Andres Hurtado de Mendoca, who has in charge the armed fleet which your Majesty ordered to be sent to Maluco, and from Captain Juan Xuares Gallinato, who conducted the reinforcements sent by me.




And in an appeal to openly open shipping to Peru from the Phillipines:


Further, they declare that the kingdom of Peru has greatly increased, during the last twenty years, in its Spanish population, both in
Spaniards born there, and in those who have gone thither from Espana, so that there are at least three times as many people. All these
people live very luxuriously. All wear silk, and of the most fine and costly quality. The gala dresses and clothes of the women are
so many and so excessive, that in no other kingdom of the world are found such; so that if four merchant-vessels went to Peru annually,
all the cloth goods would be sold, as well as everything else of the cargo. Because vessels go there only at long intervals, the people make
use of goods from Nueva Espa a and China. However, in the case of the Chinese goods, they are worn only by the very poor, and the negroes
and mulattoes (both male and female), sambahigos, [9] many Indians, and half-breeds, and this in great number. The silks of China are much
used also in the churches of the Indians, which are thus adorned and made decent; while before, because of inability to buy the silks of
Espana, the churches were very bare. As long as goods come in greater abundance, the kingdom will feel less anxiety, and the cheaper will
be the goods. The increase to the royal exchequer will be greater, since the import duties and customs increase in proportion to the
merchandise; and this increase cannot take place, if the fleets are laid up for the winter, for by this delay the merchant-vessels cannot
be despatched annually--on which, and upon their money not lying idle, depend the profits of the merchants.

Therefore the merchants of Peru declare that commerce should be opened.

And at the very least, the five hundred thousand ducados should be granted, so that the merchandise taken to Mexico from China can
be purchased in Mexico. Collecting in Peru the customs on these Chinese goods purchased in Mexico, seven per cent would be levied
thereon, which plus the five per cent paid in Mexico, makes twelve percent. The kingdom would feel greatly aggrieved if they were deprived
entirely of this commerce. And if Mexico continues to have trade with China, a considerable quantity of Chinese goods will, however many
precautions will be taken, be hidden in the Mexican ships for Peru; while but very little of it will be seized, and his Majesty will
lose almost four hundred thousand ducados, because the goods do not enter publicly. Therefore it would be advisable that this license be
granted perpetually, with the above limitation.






I think I finally found the San Pedro. It sailed back to Mexico in 1595 from Cebu. It had also made the trip in 1594 from Cebu to Acapulco. So the San Pedro appears to have been a China and cinnamon trade ship on the short Cebu to Acapulco line. The ship lost in 1597 may have been the San Pedro. I thought the name was different, but at least one source states this. Cermeno would have naturally in this case traded ships and returned on a regular Manila-Acapulco trade galleon.
 

Nov 8, 2004
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Ladies, Gentlemen I had an opportunity to read some old documents from the 1930's in which the writer tells of a Manilla Galleon sinking in the bay of Banderas, Costa Rica ? The remains were supposedly discovered while surveying the bay with the ship Cotopaxi.

Does anyone have any information on this?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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