Scuttled Nazi treasure submarine

[Bobadilla]

HOLA Bobadilla: My friend still hasn't answered me yet. He is often traveling, patience. I may go to see him if he doesn't answer soon.

Tropical Tramp

Hello Tropical Tramp,

Thanks for trying to get some info for me about your sub, I really appreciate it. Of course, I will wait for your further information when you get it.

Regards
Lobo

 

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[Bobadilla]

Hello Diving Doc,

You did not surprised me with your post, Doc, you shocked me!!!! You just revealed that you spoke to famous adventure writer and diver Jack Higgins and even more, that you know the location of this German sub!! I consider you real expert in maritime history but I did not know that you keep such a card in your slave, man!!!! It is just logical that now I will have couple of questions for you about this favourite topic of mine. I would really appreciate if you would be so kind and answer me at least some of them.
1) How do you know that it is XXI type?
2) Did you dive on her?
3) In which depth is the sub?
4) Is there any apparent damage hole in the sub?
5) What was the cause of the sinking according to your opinion?
6) Is there any hatch open?

I only hope, Doc, that you will not leave me to wait for a long time before you answer me..... Thanks!!!

Regards
Lobo

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello Doc,

So it seems now that there are two sunken (or scuttled) German war submarines in the Caribbean. One is in Bahama channel and second one is close to the USVI. Am I right or wrong?

By the way, I am not sure if you received my broad explanation about my sources regarding sunken German submarines in the Caribbean, I posted it also to HHI Forum but from today it is not possible to open the main page of HHI. What's going on? Can you confirm me, please, if you read my posts?

Regards,
Lobo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Morning Bobadilla: sorry for the delay, but my friend is in southern Mexico on businsss. He is expected back in the first part of December. Patience, it has been there since WW-2.

Tropical Tramp

 

[wolfpaw518]

The History Channel had a story on U-Boats a couple of years back, part of there research was at a U-boat history center, i believe in Berlin. I was surprised to hear the amount if U-boat information that survived the war, they new every boat, and every crewmen that served on each one, and where every one was.

Obviously there were errors, one being the U-boat found off the east coast that was reportedly sunk in the Med.

Just a thought...
neil

 

[ScubaFinder]

I caught that show also Neil, but as I recall there was a segment by a few old submariners claiming that the Germans falsified much of the information. One man claimed he and another German sub had been in a battle off the east coast of the U.S., the other sub was destroyed, and they escaped. When he returned to Germany, the other sub was listed as being sunk "on the other side of the world" were his words I believe, is this the same show you saw?

Remember that the Germans did a LOT of this type thing in their propaganda, case in point....they produced almost twice as many aircraft as they list as being destroyed by enemy action....where did the rest of them go The U.S. and Brit pilots shot them down...that's where they went, but towards the end, the war was all about public opinion in Germany. Those submarine documents may well be correct, but keep the above in mind when researching them. I am a huge aviation buff, and there are countless examples of German documentation being changed to make the war look like it was going better than it was. Just something to think about. Good luck in your search.

Jason

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI, if this Sub WAS on an espeonage mission, it certainly would never be posted as such in normal files. I have no doubt that there are files on thus particular Sub and it's mission, but


Tropical Tramp

 

[Peg Leg]

The S.S. was involved in everything that Germany was involved in even after the war.
Just like the KGB was and is still involved today.
If you are serious about what the subs were doing then I suggest that you make a little trip to South America AND go from there but if you are really serious check with ISREAL-They have all the information you will even need.
Peg leg

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello,

I could not be permanently on internet for couple of last days so now I read with interest your posts about my favourite topic. You all are right from some angle.

Germans really changed certain information about their subs missions on purpose. For example the dead of their sub idol Gunter Pruen was silenced for 66 days before Minister of Prapaganda Goebbles together with Hitler allowed it to be published openly. Other sub hero, Werner Hartenstein, captain of U-156, was on certain secret missions in the Caribbean for almost half a year. Officially he was looking for tanker convoys but it was not true.

There are secret archives, like in each war country, USA, England, Russia, France, also in Nazi Germany were these types of archives about ¨special¨missions of their submarines. On purpose these subs were listed to be somwhere else, just in case... You have one bright example, U-977 surrounded in Mar del Plata.

Speaking about going to Latin America to find the information about true missions of some particular German submarines, it was excatly what I did 15 years ago. I spent several times couple of months in southern Chile and I was trying to penetrate to Bahia St. Matias as well.

Well, my opinion still is that couple of Gemran submarines loaded with stolen treasures are sunk or scuttled in the Caribbean. From November 1943 till May 1945 they were sent one by one or in couples on these routes. Not all of them reached the final port....

Regards
Lobo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Cornelius, so was I, but on the opposite end of the world hehe However there were exceptions, as you should know. The crews were taught to not ask questions of higher authority, just to obey, plus most had an aversion to being shot for disobedience. Most of them never were privy to sailing orders or areas to be searched.. So if a high ranking Officer showed up with the proper orders, they were carried out..


Tropical Tramp

 

[Bobadilla]

Cornelius,

I am sorry but Tropical Tramp is absolutely right. Ordinary German submarine crew members had to shut up even if they saw somnething out of the place to be loaded on the board of the submarine. Sometimes (it has been historically confirmed several times, it is not a story of some dying German survival...) only captain of the sub knew the cargo and destination and was allowed to tell it ONLY to his officials when they were on high seas, not before. Unfortunately you are very wrong in this point.

I NEVER wrote that Kriegsmarine had a possibility to steal some treasures. Kriegsmarine, the same as other parts of German Army had to obey the orders form High Command. If they were told that they had to carry some cargo and transport it somewhere, they NEVER asked a word and just followed the orders. You should know it better how the German soldiers were in the Second World War and if they were allowed to rise their voises and dissagree with something.....

Regarding your information that the mayority of treasures were returned after the War, you are wrong again. The mayority of stolen treasures from European countries were tranbsported to Latin America countries, to the USA (yes, you read right) during the last two years of the WW II and good part of it still lies burried but definitely not in Bavaria as you think. You have got very wrong information.

I can not understand your evident absolute refuse of the facts. According to your general posting I consider you to be very qualified expert in general and in particular in Duch shipwrecks but nobody can have deep information and knowledge about everything at the same time. Do not take it like mentoring from me but I spent huge amount of money, time (almost 20 years) and effort to find the truth about German war treasures and submarine journeys to Latin America with gold, diamonds and jewelry on the board. I do not know any exact position of some sunken German sub in Caribbean with treasures on board, I am only convinced that they exist and what I can repeat you is that I do have some knowledge about this topic based on serious historical research, interview with eye witnesses, archive documents and investigation in field.

Regards
Lobo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen, I sense a bit of difference, unfortunately I tend to Bodillo in that some were carrying $$ for other missions such as my possible espionage one.

In Asia, Many ships of all types were pressed into service at the beginning of ww-2 to try to remove valuables from countries that were about to be conquered by the Japanese. The obvious pending fall of Germany fits into the same pattern, it is not too radical to suppose that the same thing happened.

How and why did top living officials of the third Reich, end up in Argentina and none were exactly paupers?

Tropical Tramp

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

Hello Joe, I am not a World war two vet. My foster father was a world war two marine who was on guadalcanal, iwo jima and tarawa. He once told me that what cured him of souvenir hunting was when he found a jap tank and lying on top of it was a german luger. He jumped on the tank and grabbed the luger and the barrel swung around and hit him in the lower back and knocked him flying. He got up boiling mad and assaulted the tank with hand grenades. He said afterwards it was obvious that he was just killing dead men all over again but it made him leery of souvenirs and shortly after that many souvenirs and dead bodies got booby trapped by the japanese. exanimo, siegfried schlagrule

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

Hey Bobadilla, Instead of chasing around the world after nazi submarines howcome you don't dive in the lake where all the crates got dumped? I worked with a german guy who went missing after saying he wanted to work that site. Maybe the nazis didn't want him getting their loot or maybe he found some loot and lit out. don't know. regards, siegfried schlagrule

 

[Bobadilla]

Cornelius,

I do not understand why you try to offend me just because I do not agree with your opinion. I have thought that this Forum serves for the people to exchange their opinions about different topics of interest. If somebody does not agree with you, you go mad. It si not for the first time as I can read your posts. It is not the way, man, I am sorry. Why did you write that "...you are someone that knows all and do not want to listen me...." I listen you, my friend, and definitely I do not know all and everything. You have one opinion, I have just different one regarding this topic. I posted clearly, that I do not know any exact location of German "treasure sub", I just believ that they exist. I also tried to explain you that I am not just watching James Bond movies but that I devoted lot of my time in the past to serious research. I am not only sitting in libraries and at home, I am quite often in the field. That´s all.

By the way, when German submarine crew members saw some strange crates being loaded to their subs or when they saw some strange civil personal on board, it certainly lighted a candle in their brain, as you wrote. And what? What could they do about it? Nothing. Speculate, obey the orders and shut up.

Lobo

 

[Bobadilla]

Hello Siegfried,

Thanks for your opinion and posts. Regarding lakes you mentioned, you probably mean Toplitz Lake and Black Lake (Cerne jezero) in the southern Bohemia. I visited both of them. Diving is strictly forbidden in both places because in both lakes there were divers dead during diving expeditions. I was born in Czech republic so I tried to get permit to go diving into the Black Lake where some German military cases with fake money were recovered in the past, but it was strictly refused. There is false bottom made from old trunks in 40 meters of water and one diver died there. The problem was that his air supply hose was cut by knife. It was never solved who did it. There were three other divers with him. Other diver died there two years later and after that lake was closed for diving. There are eye witnesses that saw German war trucks unloading lot of cases in April 1945, loading them on the boat and throwing into the water there.

Regards
Lobo

 

[mariner]

Lobo,

I have found this thread very interesting, and consider it a real possibility that a limited number of such treasure-laden submarines exist. However, if you find one, how are you going to go about getting permission to recover it? They are sovereign vessels, so are you going to argue that they were on non-military duty and so not exempt from the Convention on Salvage, or do you plan on simply opening them up and removing the treasure? If the latter, then the value of the artifacts will plunge, because context is everything in determining market value over and above intrinsic value.

Mariner

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

If found just empty of cargo and then report or just never report it. If in shallow water could pump it dry and refloat then drag it where you want it. Be a great theme restaurant like that soviet nuclear sub down in florida. I heard the owner of that one paid over $5 million to buy and unknown amount to turn into restaurant. exanimo, siegfried schlagrule

 

[Peg Leg]

Bobailla
I have found in my 70 years on this earth that the frist thing you think of is correct. It is only when you start to disect your thoughts and actually lose track of what the mind said to begin with.
Man can lie to everything but himself.
Follow your orginal thoughts and do not be swayed by others. Opinons can be good and they can also lead you atray-if you let them govern your thinking.
I approch everything I do with an open mind and ask tons of questions but I do not forget my orginal thinking.
Hope this makes some sense.
Peg Leg

 

[gollum]

Cornelius,

I am not prone to flights of fancy, but if you reread some of your posts to Bobadilla, they do seem somewhat rude (at least, if they were directed at me, I would take offense, and I have a pretty thick skin).

While the Kriegsmarine may not have taken any treasure, many KM Officials got their share. Just like the Luftwaffe didn't really confiscate anything, but it's Commander (Hermann Goering) was the single largest holder of stolen war loot. He also used his authority to comandeer trains and motor vehicles to transport his loot, and troops of men to help hide it. Why is it so hard to believe that other commanders would have done the same?

I wanted to chime in here a little. As this is not my main area of interest, I don't know many of the details of the German U-Forces at the end of the war.

Even though Bremen was where the last of the German UBoats escaped, they still served as escape vessels for many high ranking Nazis. With the express (or implied) consent of Pope Pius XII, Catholic Priests assited some Nazis in escaping their impending doom. They helped them get through Italy, to other locations in Spain, Southern Italy, and Africa for further legs of the trip South America and the Middle East. Some of these Nazis were put on submarines for the trips.


Just My two cents.

best,

Mike