Bahamian salvage vessel

[Dell Winders]

The Bahamas is an independent nation of proud and wonderful people and will run their country as they see fit without catering to egotistical political correctness others allow to run their own lives and wish to impose their way on others.

If Spain, decides it wants to claim the treasure of any of it's ships wrecked in the Bahamas, let them apply for a "Recovery" permit and abide by Bahamian laws, and interests, just like everyone else, without criticism.

I would say to Alexandre, and Spain, what, or how it is done in the Bahamas, is none of your damn business. Butt out! Dell

 

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[signumops]

Contested or approved by whom, exactly?

 

[Alexandre]

Contested or approved by whom, exactly?

If a Portuguese ship is being recovered somewhere in the planet - like in Mozambique - we will contest.

If it is being archaeologically studied - like in Namibia - we will aplaud.

 

[signumops]

Who is "we" exactly? Who are you representing here? Do you hold some sort of official office in Portugal? I don't believe that anybody here at T-net was aware of your office.

 

[Alexandre]

Who is "we" exactly? Who are you representing here? Do you hold some sort of official office in Portugal? I don't believe that anybody here at T-net was aware of your office.

I represent myself here.

Besides that I am a college teacher in Maritime Archaeology, a researcher with an archaeological academical Institute, an expert in underwater archaeology for ICOMOS and the only member related to underwater archaeology with a seating on the Permanent Forum for the Sea Affairs of the Portuguese Ministry of Defense.

 

[Dell Winders]

What about Portuguese pirate ships found in Florida, or Bahamian waters? Will they be contested? Dell

 

[ScubaFinder]

Typical - When will any of you "academical" types figure it out. If someone RESPONSIBLE doesn't recover the shipwreck artifacts, someone UNETHICAL will. Go to the Dominican Republic....they don't have to run mag surveys there....they just wait for a local diver or spear fisherman to start selling artifacts to tourists. Then they threaten him with prison if he doesn't show them where he got the coins. He shows them, and they either have Indiana U. or one of the many responsible treasure salvage companies go in and document the site and remove the artifacts to stop the looting.

The Bahamians understand this also...how many unscrupulous individuals have they caught just in the last year pillaging wrecks in their waters? Several that I know of, and probably several more that we don't know about. Legally permitted Treasure Hunters are NOT the plunderers, they are recovering the artifacts so they can be properly conserved, studied, photographed, and documented. Sure some of the artifacts get sold, but what would you guys prefer, fishermen raping wrecks and quietly selling to tourists, or Treasure hunters recording what data they can, turning everything over to archaeologists, and THEN selling to collectors?

Jason

 

[Alexandre]

I would say to Alexandre, and Spain, what, or how it is done in the Bahamas, is none of your damn business. Butt out! Dell

Hey Dell... it's free speech. If the Bahamas want to do whatever they like to their wrecks, they are free to do it.

But, I am also free to criticize it and speak whatever goes through my mind. Unless of course, you are a communist, all against free speech...

 

[Salvor6]

Alexandre, did Portugal contest the shipwrecks that Arquenatus salvaged in Mozambique?

 

[Alexandre]

Yes. We protested with the Mozambican Government. But, as with Dominica and Spain, they are in their territorial waters.

The only thing we can do is wait for article 16 of the Convention to enter into force in our Portuguese law

Article 16 – Measures relating to nationals and vessels

States Parties shall take all practicable measures to ensure that their nationals and vessels flying their flag do not engage in any activity directed at underwater cultural heritage in a manner not in conformity with this Convention.

and then bring these nationals to Justice. Problem is that the majority of them are German nationals..

 

[bahamamike]

But seriously Alexandre, recovery and archaeology, is just a matter of semantics.

This is my opinion and does not reflect the position of The Bahamas Government.

But The Bahamas is a sovereign country and can set our own laws to do what we feel is right for our country. Also The Bahamas is a country that has not signed on to the underwater convention and will probably not for a while. The UHC is too restrictive. What does UNESCO propose, we just let the shipwrecks/heritage in Bahamian waters continue to be destroyed by natural events (not to include the illegal plundering). Plus, UHC is a non-binding convention, so if a country signed on, they could still allow salvage if the country, felt it was in its best interest. What about all of these students who are getting graduate degrees in Nautical/Marine Archaeology, what short of jobs are they expected to get. There is a limited amount of academic, and even less CRM work in Nautical Archaeology. Working with private recovery/salvage firms is sometimes their only chance of employment in their fields.

 

[aquanut]

But seriously Alexandre, recovery and archaeology, is just a matter of semantics.

This is my opinion and does not reflect the position of The Bahamas Government.

But The Bahamas is a sovereign country and can set our own laws to do what we feel is right for our country. Also The Bahamas is a country that has not signed on to the underwater convention and will probably not for a while. The UHC is too restrictive. What does UNESCO propose, we just let the shipwrecks/heritage in Bahamian waters continue to be destroyed by natural events (not to include the illegal plundering). Plus, UHC is a non-binding convention, so if a country signed on, they could still allow salvage if the country, felt it was in its best interest. What about all of these students who are getting graduate degrees in Nautical/Marine Archaeology, what short of jobs are they expected to get. There is a limited amount of academic, and even less CRM work in Nautical Archaeology. Working with private recovery/salvage firms is sometimes their only chance of employment in their fields.

A reasonable man here.

 

[Hangingfor8]

What the Bahamas are doing is a great thing.

 

[Alexandre]

What about all of these students who are getting graduate degrees in Nautical/Marine Archaeology, what short of jobs are they expected to get. There is a limited amount of academic, and even less CRM work in Nautical Archaeology. Working with private recovery/salvage firms is sometimes their only chance of employment in their fields.

Mike, my country has signed the Convention and all my students are getting their hands full of projects.

As for them working for a TH firm, they are strongly advised not to do it. The archaeologists involved with treasure hunters, antiquities dealers are, generally, drummed out of academic archaeology because their work tends to be shoddy and they cut corners. Everyone in the field knows that no quality academic researcher will ever use their reports, because they simply cannot be trusted. It all boils down to deontological ethics, who has them and who hasn’t them.


(of course, it is not necessary for an archaeologist to join a TH firms in order to be a bad archaeologist - I know a few of those, people that excavate and dont publish).

As for Bahamas, lets see how the experience goes. Let's hope its better than that of Cape Verde.

 

[VOC]

Alexandre wrote: The archaeologists involved with treasure hunters, antiquities dealers are, generally, drummed out of academic archaeology because their work tends to be shoddy and they cut corners. Everyone in the field knows that no quality academic researcher will ever use their reports, because they simply cannot be trusted.

What an arrogant and pathetic stance,

I know you are relatively young, but you have definitely one hell of a lot to learn about archaeology and academic archaeologist !

 

[bahamamike]

WELL SAID JASON!!!!!!!!!!!

Typical - When will any of you "academical" types figure it out. If someone RESPONSIBLE doesn't recover the shipwreck artifacts, someone UNETHICAL will. Go to the Dominican Republic....they don't have to run mag surveys there....they just wait for a local diver or spear fisherman to start selling artifacts to tourists. Then they threaten him with prison if he doesn't show them where he got the coins. He shows them, and they either have Indiana U. or one of the many responsible treasure salvage companies go in and document the site and remove the artifacts to stop the looting.

The Bahamians understand this also...how many unscrupulous individuals have they caught just in the last year pillaging wrecks in their waters? Several that I know of, and probably several more that we don't know about. Legally permitted Treasure Hunters are NOT the plunderers, they are recovering the artifacts so they can be properly conserved, studied, photographed, and documented. Sure some of the artifacts get sold, but what would you guys prefer, fishermen raping wrecks and quietly selling to tourists, or Treasure hunters recording what data they can, turning everything over to archaeologists, and THEN selling to collectors?

Jason

 

[bahamamike]

Alexandre wrote: The archaeologists involved with treasure hunters, antiquities dealers are, generally, drummed out of academic archaeology because their work tends to be shoddy and they cut corners. Everyone in the field knows that no quality academic researcher will ever use their reports, because they simply cannot be trusted.

What an arrogant and pathetic stance,

I know you are relatively young, but you have definitely one hell of a lot to learn about archaeology and academic archaeologist !

Not all archaeologist who work with TH produce shoddy work and cut corners. Some do, but not all. But your stance here, has shown what is my biggest problem with most academic archaeologists. I am curious what my reception will be at the next regional meetings for UCH in the Caribbean.

 

[sphillips]

Really, somebody help me out here. Of the thousands of shipwrecks around the world from so many countries, throughout so many centuries, how many shipwrecks do archaeolgists have to survey to understand how people of any given era lived and died, why they crossed the oceans, how they built their ships, why they carried bronze cannon in lieu of iron, the tools they used, the shoes they wore, the dinnerware they used. How many artifacts do they need for their museums and universities to get a glimpse in to the history of these people. Am I missing something here?

Love this forum, lots of good discussions and opinions.

 

[ScubaFinder]

This all goes back to the same old problem. I was just discussing this the other day with an archaeologist, and many see the problem, but few do anything to solve it. Many of us Treasure Hunters lash out at ALL archaeologists, and judge them all by the lowest common denominator. Many Archaeologists also lump all treasure hunters into the old cliche of wreck dynamiting grave robbers with gold coins in their eyes and no regard for history or preservation.

Then there are the few of us who can see the truth. Most archaeologists are not bad guys, of the 20 or so that I have met and worked with, I only have real issues with one of them. He fits the cliche's many of us judge ALL archaeologists by. On the other hand, of the several hundred treasure hunters that I know well, less than 4 or 5 of them would actually destroy a historical wreck site just to get at the shiny stuff. Those 4 or 5 are not my associates or my close friends, and they will never be my associates or friends. The truth is, I care as much about History and preservation as any archaeologist. The only point I disagree with some archaeologists on is that when you find several hundred thousand coins, there is no logical excuse for keeping them all in a vault somewhere. People love history, and enjoy owning a piece of it. When a guy has a piece of 8 around his neck, he gets asked about it. This means that the story of that wreck gets told, people are interested and amazed to learn that there is a wrecked galleon right on their own shore.

We can hide history in archaeological journals and secured vaults, or we can put it out there in plain sight so everyone can see and enjoy it. When a ship wrecks on your coast, it becomes as much a part of YOUR heritage as it is a part of its country of origins heritage. The first European residents of Florida were victims of a shipwreck...how can you say that the history and patrimony of that ship belongs solely to its country of origin?

Jason

 

[CanadianTrout]

My humble opinion....----> Here in lies the problem

...... and many see the problem, but few do anything to solve it. Many of us Treasure Hunters lash out at ALL archaeologists, and judge them all by the lowest common denominator. Many Archaeologists also lump all treasure hunters into the old cliche of wreck dynamiting grave robbers with gold coins in their eyes and no regard for history or preservation.

(Just one of MANY quotes I could put here and really get behind on)

This has been one amazing thread. I applaud bahamamike for his endevours.