Nuestra senora de la concepcion

[DougRecovery]

Hey guys (gals),
Ive been away for a while and not had the chance to regularly check up on the forum and i see now a lot has changed, but hopefully its still the warm friendly informative environment i left behind.
Anyway back to topic, i like a few people i guess really enjoy reading clive cussler novels and i recently started reading one which contained the "Nuestra senora de la concepcion", i was intrigued about this vessel and thought id do a bit of "Googling" to see if i could come up with more information but now im confused!! see one website say's "Drake" did capture her and another said she foundered off of the Dominican republic. Does anyone know anything about her? surely as a pirate the logical thing to do would be to capture the intended vessel or at the very least sink her.

 

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[old man]

Doug,

The Spanish often used the same name for ships over a period of time. History tells us that in fact Sir William Phips first salvaged the Concepcion off the coast of the Dominican Republic in the 1600's.

Burt Webber Jr. located the ship in the late 1970's and salvaged most of what was left.

Tracey Bowden, now holds the permit for the site and continues to salvage artifacts from the site.

 

[ivan salis]

same name but differant ship--very common and madding practice of the spanish ---the common "reuse" of the same name ---in differant eras and places ---worse of all---sometimes there were ships with the same name (or very close names) in the same area at the same time or even in the same fleet!!!---drives spanish archive hunters crazy

 

[rgecy]

There were many ships with the name Concepcion. I have found reference to at least 6 known to have sank and I am sure there are more.

Doug is referring to two separate vessels. One, the N.S. de la Concepcion that sank in 1641 on Silver Shoals and was salvaged by Sir William Phips in 1687 and of course later by Burt Webber in 1978; and Two, the N.S. de la Concepcion that was captured and looted by Drake in 1579. Of which he later dumped 40 tons of her silver into what is known as Drakes Bay.

Robert

 

[ivan salis]

I do believe that you are quite correct about the two hes talking about ----just was stating * just like you did* the spanish "reused" that name many times ---it shows up at differant times and places,---- but its not just "that" name sadly there are many other cases of same name / differant ship and even worse---in a couple cases ships with the same name or quite close ones in the same fleet!!!---- which may have sank at the same time & general area--- take the san miguel / sr san miguel---this is just such a case.---1715 fleet---often hard to tell if its the same ship (one) say recorded in the records with & without the sr used or two "whole" differant ships---can be very tricky "nailing down" stuff like that. plus if differant ships which san miguel was carrying what? oh boy what a pain--- Ivan

 

[DougRecovery]

Thank's guys.
I was referring initially to the vessel captured by Sir Drake. I had no idea that the spanish named so many of their ships with the same name.
I assume they recovered the silver from Drakes bay?!

 

[old man]

No Doug they didn't. At least one person on this forum doesn't think it's in the "Drake's Bay" way up north. I believe that he thinks it was found in a different Country. That Country made their Drakes Bay a National Park and erected a Bronze Sign that states, " This is where Sir Francis Drake dumped 45 tons of Silver". By the way, that person is me.

 

[DougRecovery]

I'll be i never knew that!! - I suppose it would be more practical to dump it on land (would make retrievel a lot easier)

 

[old man]

Doug,

I didn't say it was dumped on land. The Country that put the plaque on the Island is in Ecuador. Isla de La Plata. The plaque goes onto say that the 45 tons of silver was dumped in the water in a cove off the coast of the Island. I did locate silver bars there. Whether or not Drake dumped them there, is up for debate. I can only go by what the research that I used had to say and what the plaque on the Island states.

 

[ivan salis]

=isle de la plata---the island of plate---as in bars of silver --- hummmm...wonder how it got that name? names can sometimes tell you things.---its a well know fact that folks in the old days often refered to places by "famous" events that occur there or near by -Ivan

 

[DougRecovery]

Old man,
Sorry i misread your reply (doing to many things at once) - its still really interesting!! am i wrong in believing that the reason Drake dropped the silver (assuming it was drake) is because the "Hinde" was already grossly overloaded and would never of made the voyage back to plymouth?

 

[old man]

Doug,

From everything that I've read. Drake captured at least 2 other Spanish ships with treasure, right before capturing this one. He was heavily over laden with treasure and dumped the silver to keep it out of Spanish Hands and also because he had no room for it on his Ship.

 

[Rustys Mate]

http://www.mcn.org/2/oseeler/smoke.htm

this about the naming of Drake's Bay

 

[Plus ultra]

hey old man,
I read somewhere that the ship captured by Drake was called the 'Cagafuega' or 'Cacafuego'. Both names were used, one means 'Spitsfire' the other literally 'Shitsfire,' apparently in reference to the number of guns she carried.

When did you find the bars off of Isla Plata?

It is a fascinating story.

plusultra

 

[Plus ultra]

i know its crude but it was called s h i t s fire

 

[old man]

A few years ago. I received a non-ferrous reading about the size of a quarter of a football field and went down and uncovered a silver bar. Found out it was a National Park and was told that it would be hard to get a permit. I've been saving the money to give it a try, but now I'm going to wait until a new President is in power.I hear the current one is anti-American.

 

[Bill]

Drake called the Concepcion "Cacafuego" because she never fired a shot. After the capture, he sailed to Cano Island to replenish his water and take on turtle meat. His ship was so overloaded with silver that he decided to divide up as much of the coin as he could, and jettison the bars. Taking a copper galley bowl, each man was given sixteen bowls full of coin. About 45 tons of bars were then thrown overboard on the south side of Cano island. In the 1930's a salvage attempt was made using a dragline, some of the bars were recovered until the dragline broke. I understand that a southamerican company had applied for a lease, but I don't know any details.

 

[Plus ultra]

Thanks for that very informative post Bill, how does that info correlate with your experience old man

Yes it seems the new President of Ecuador is pretty left of center, from the sounds of it he leans all the way to Venezuela.

That and the National Park or Sanctuary would be formidable obstacles to overcome.

old man did you ever trace the markings of your silver bar to see if it matched any manifest info, or are the manifests buried in a dusty archive

plusultra

 

[old man]

Plus Ultra, The first evidence that I found to correspond to the salvage in the 1930's, was about 50 feet of drag line going into the sand. That's where I located the Silver. Markings on the bars,sorry I reburied the bar so that I wouldn't run into any trouble with the Government, if I ever did apply for a salvage permit.

 

[mariner]

It's amazing how all this nonsense about Drake dumping tons of treasure along the American west coast keeps being regurgitated. Why on earth would he have dumped a fortune on the other side of the world, and what evidence is there that he lacked the capacity to take it home? He captured one ship while at the Island of Cano, which he took with him, and another almost immediately after, which he let go. If he needed the capacity, he could have taken this second ship with him.

It is clear from the evidence, not just from English sources but from several Spanish witnesses, that Drake went to the Isle of Cano off the Costa Rica coast immediately after capturing the Cacafuego. He was already north of the equator when he captured the silver, and continued north. The Island off Ecuador is many miles to the south.

Anybody care to quote me a reliable document that says anything else ?

That is not to say that there is not silver in the cove on the Isle de Plata off Ecuador. I have always believed old man's story about seeing the bar and leaving it there. It just has nothing to do with Drake.

Mariner