Odysseys Recovery some of my Observations
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  1. #1

    May 2005
    517
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    Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    This is not a bash Odyssey thread but I hope an objective discussion regarding this find and recovery of the coins and I assume other artifacts from the “Black Swan” wreck
    I mean the “Merchant Royal”.

    Any tenderfoots without credentials posting should be taken with a pinch of salt.

    So will Odyssey get to keep the goods.

    I wonder if they will as they have not been very forthcoming with information and have it seems been Clandestinely working this wreck for some time. Remember that Odyssey is a public quoted company and is accountable to their shareholders and the SEC. I see a great deal of trouble for them the way they have handled this.

    Now we can assume the wreck is the Merchant Royal from the information we have from Odyssey and the general history available on that particular ship. If it is not the Merchant Royal then the thread is non-consequential and new one should be started “which ship is it”.

    So who owns what. The majority of the readers of this thread will be from the US and you all know about ownership of wrecks in and around your coast and the problems arising.

    The coins were in part the property of the Spanish government (without going into where they got them from). Did they ever give up their claim to them?

    If Spain make a claim how will this affect the HMS Sussex project for Odyssey.

    The UK government may elect to extend its waters (unlikely but possible)

    What about the owners of the Merchant Royal and the cargo from the earlier trading expedition still on board?

    The Captain had an interest on board, so his grand children still have an interest.

    The crew had interest so do their heirs.

    What do we know about the status of Odyssey’s ownership of the sunken ship? They have to prove they now own it legally.

    Note they insist on calling it a “colonial period” wreck. Surely it is from the “Stuart period” (just being picky)

    There are a number of discrepancies emerging in the ‘official’ accounts which suggests not all is as it seems. In particular it appears the Odyssey are very well aware of the ship’s identity, but are officially pretending that they don’t know. This crucially prevents any ownership claims being made. And yet before the ownership has been established by a court process, “Odyssey” is pulling out the finds from the wreck as fast as they can (in fact there is evidence that suggests they were taking stuff from the wreck before they got the wreck arrest order). The point of this is that IF it should be established that somebody OTHER than “Odyssey” still has ownership rights, the actual owners may decide, in the interests of preserving the site and not to allow further exploitation of their property. They could also say to Odyssey we did not ask you to find and recover our property why did you do it. From this point of view the haste and secrecy with which Odyssey are currently getting the stuff out is unseemly.

    The Tampa wreck arrest order would apply to a wreck whose identity is unknown, the minute the identity is established, the situation changes, which is why (one may suspect) they are humming and ha-ing about saying which ship it is. This gives them of course more time to get the loot out, in the way they, and not its owner choose. The location of the find (based on the claim filed in Florida) has now been given as “within a five-mile radius of 49°25′N 6°0′ W / 49.417, -6”

    Odyssey moved the coins and other artifacts "the coins were brought into the United States with a valid export license granted by the country from which they were exported, and imported legally pursuant to US law" (http://shipwreck.net/ pr135.html).

    Anyone following the doings of the US antiquities market will find nothing remarkable in the latter part of that comment, but from WHICH country were these artifacts exported, and who issued this “valid export license”?

    Which country is in fact empowered to issue an export license at all for several TONNES of archaeological finds (older than 300 years) of undetermined ownership and origin?

    Odyssey don’t even want to admit through which country’s ports the artifacts were transferred from boat to cargo jet (though it has been suggested Gibraltar).

    It would be very interesting to know what was in those export papers and who signed them. It is going to be a crucial part of their claim.

    Odyssey say they are concerned of the politically correct concept that this exploitation has been carried out by “the correct archaeological protocols”, but have not give what they might be. Quote: “We have treated this site with kid gloves and the archaeological work done by our team out there is unsurpassed," Odyssey CEO John Morris said. "We are thoroughly documenting and recording the site, which we believe will have immense historical significance."

    The initial accounts suggested all the finds (over 500,000 of them) had been recovered in a month, other accounts let slip that in fact some finds were taken off the wreck (and apparently were already in the States SO were there TWO export licenses?) BEFORE they got the Tampa ruling. Whatever the timescale however, how long does it take two archaeologists to record underwater the precise find spots of 500,000 small finds, let alone any structural remains of the ship, cannon etc.

    Now would be a good time to for Odyssey to reveal now quite HOW they got these finds out of the site, and recorded their find spots, to demonstrate to the world and their SHAREHOLDERS just what standards of exploration are being applied here. And under who’s laws are they working under. If not I see these recovered artifacts being locked up in court for many years to come, which would be a shame.

    As I said at the beginning I am not bashing Odyssey just observing just some of the problems and question that they will have to solve before this pans out.



    A quick one for Jeff K, what did they find in the rare book department in Cambridge University Library?

  2. #2
    us
    Apr 2004
    Tesoro Sand Shark, Homebuilt pulse loop
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    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    Odyssey has a reputation for working out all the legal claim issues prior to going public with their wrecks. It does seem that this may be an enigma for them. As to to whether shareholders "have a right to know" all the details, I disagree. General info should suffice and details given on a need-to-know basis - including legal issues. The great companies ignore shareholders, and simply stick to the best practices that will increase value. Trying to win popularity contests in the short term is usually detrimental to the company AND shareholders.

    My two cents is that the best treasure hunting companies will have two key characteristics. 1) It will be a privately held company and 2) it will stick to the wrecks in int'l waters. Those two alone solve two of the most daunting obstacles - public information and government involvement.

  3. #3
    us
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    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    Well said Darren, do you know of any privately held treasure hunting companies??

    I have to think we are not giving Odyssey enough credit, they did not get where they are by being stupid or neglecting responsibilities. They handled the Republic in a manner in which worked for them, and I suspect they will do the same with the Merchant Royal. All any of us can do is speculate at this time, none of us will know how this turns out for at least a few years.

    ANY company finding a wreck of this magnitude would display a fair amount of secrecy...unless they WERE stupid, so I'm not letting that end of it affect my thoughts, it's expected. As for Spain, they do this everytime a major find is made, it's just Spain being Spain. Take those two factors out (as you logically should) and it's just another big shipwreck find with the same hurdles to overcome as all the ones that came before it, and all the ones that will follow.

    Jas

  4. #4
    us
    Feb 2004
    lake mary florida
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    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    when an if odyssey decides to sell off the treasure and coins,then you will know what wreck it is.if thier certs say unknown wreck then they wont get much for thier coins,only thier worth in weight.
    Millions of dollars of Spanish treasure await those who would dare brave the eye of the hurricane.

  5. #5
    us
    Mar 2006
    Florida
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    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    Cablava... I have no idea what they found in the rare book dept. Would you care to fill us in? I think everybody should give Odyssey the benefit of the doubt at this time. They have some of the best maritime attorneys in the business, so I think they know what they're doing.

  6. #6
    Charter Member
    us
    Pirate of the Ays

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    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    I'm with you Jeff, Odyssey has been getting bashed for some time now, and they are still doing well. Even with this news from Spain the stock is still up 0.25 per share in this mornings trading. For months people have been keeping an eye on there every move in Spanish waters, and to pull up that kind of haul, they had to be parked over the wreck for some time.
    Odyssey has a good reputation and a half way decent track record, and for all the chatter about doing this last recovery on the sly and insinuating some illeagle activity is just hog wash. It's all about greed on Spains part, I'm sure the State of Florida is trying to think of a way to get 20% out of them. Gregg, just tell them you found it all on the beach!

    Tom

  7. #7
    us
    Underwater Heritage Rescue Diver

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    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    17 tons of beach finds...I like it Tom!

  8. #8
    VOC
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    Apr 2006
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    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    They did what they said they would do,

    Two expensive ships searching a massive search area for one/two wrecks that have been looked for by at least three other organisations.

    It has taken them a long time and a lot of cash to locate this wreck and they have done a great job doing it.

    I wish them all the best, as many Treasure Hunting companies have run off with the investors money without actually seriously looking for anything.

    Of course they have to be secret about their finds, and have to do all they can to protect the ownership of their finds, as by law they should do all they can within the various national laws to protect and grow their investors investment.

    The government paid Archaeologist are allready *****ing, but in reality they will never ever get the funding to search and recover for these deep water wrecks, so its good to see private companies and investors taking the lead in bringing these lost objects back into public circulation.

    Well done and hope you all get rich out of it both Oddesy and the Investors.

    You took the Risk you deserve the Reward, and lets hope that all the Jealous bystanders and armchair critics watch you do it all again on the Sussex.

  9. #9
    es
    Apr 2005
    Sardinera, Mona Island
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    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    Everybody quite regarding Odyssey?

    Amona
    "Live your Adventure"

  10. #10
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    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    Everybody except SPAIN!

  11. #11

    Oct 2006
    Coastal, NC
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    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    Spain is forgetting the fact that their coinage was the predominant medium of exchange for centuries back in the day. Who else was minting coinage at such a large scale. The US as we know it today was still in its early formation stages and did not have a universally accepted medium of exchange until long after the Civil War. Spanish coinage is likely to be found on many wrecks of many nationalities up to the 20th century, on seagoing vessels from many nations, engaged in commerce of every kind.

    Spain was a country that produced very little, and lived by purchasing goods to suit their needs from other countries while they sat back and worried with the troubles of shipping their new found wealth back from lands and resources they took from the native inhabitants, and figuring out ways of profiting from goods shipped to the new world. Pretty much the same as they as they are attempting to do today with the help of some crafty US legal help.

    Should an honest to God warship engaged in a war be off limits and a considered a sacred grave site such as the USS Arizona, the Bismark, the Yamamoto, I believe so. Should every shipwreck found in any ocean carrying a Spanish coin, I think not. The bulk of the vessels being found are nothing but privateers of a different label, they were not engaged in some courageous battle. They died senselessly in an act of commerce at the hands of a greedy nation engaged in greedous act. Many vessels from many seafaring nations will be discovered as time goes forward, how many will be carrying Spanish coinage, how many more law suits will be brought forth before this non-sense gets the treatment it deserves?

    For the record, I am not an OMR shareholder. I do however applaud the efforts of OMR in their endeavors. It is not an easy feat to pull off such a deep water recovery and I wish to congratulate the crew for a job well done, and their leadership for having the fortitude to pursue the goal, and see it to its completion.

    The burdon of proof needs to be placed on the claimant in this case, let Spain do the archival research, the endless long days of surveying, searching, and documentation. And the spending of untold fortunes, and lives to pursue the goal. Their current posture in this avenue is serving nothing but to drive people to not file rightfull, legal claims but further drives home the position of privateering. Whats next the Moon and Mars, they saw it first
    www.coastalmarinesalvage.com

  12. #12

    May 2006
    1,520
    2 times

    Re: Odyssey's Recovery some of my Observations

    Quote Originally Posted by NC Brad
    Spain is forgetting the fact that their coinage was the predominant medium of exchange for centuries back in the day. Who else was minting coinage at such a large scale. The US as we know it today was still in its early formation stages and did not have a universally accepted medium of exchange until long after the Civil War. Spanish coinage is likely to be found on many wrecks of many nationalities up to the 20th century, on seagoing vessels from many nations, engaged in commerce of every kind.

    Spain was a country that produced very little, and lived by purchasing goods to suit their needs from other countries while they sat back and worried with the troubles of shipping their new found wealth back from lands and resources they took from the native inhabitants, and figuring out ways of profiting from goods shipped to the new world. Pretty much the same as they as they are attempting to do today with the help of some crafty US legal help.

    Should an honest to God warship engaged in a war be off limits and a considered a sacred grave site such as the USS Arizona, the Bismark, the Yamamoto, I believe so. Should every shipwreck found in any ocean carrying a Spanish coin, I think not. The bulk of the vessels being found are nothing but privateers of a different label, they were not engaged in some courageous battle. They died senselessly in an act of commerce at the hands of a greedy nation engaged in greedous act. Many vessels from many seafaring nations will be discovered as time goes forward, how many will be carrying Spanish coinage, how many more law suits will be brought forth before this non-sense gets the treatment it deserves?

    For the record, I am not an OMR shareholder. I do however applaud the efforts of OMR in their endeavors. It is not an easy feat to pull off such a deep water recovery and I wish to congratulate the crew for a job well done, and their leadership for having the fortitude to pursue the goal, and see it to its completion.

    The burdon of proof needs to be placed on the claimant in this case, let Spain do the archival research, the endless long days of surveying, searching, and documentation. And the spending of untold fortunes, and lives to pursue the goal. Their current posture in this avenue is serving nothing but to drive people to not file rightfull, legal claims but further drives home the position of privateering. Whats next the Moon and Mars, they saw it first
    I think that it should be brought forward about SPAIN and the Discovery of SPANISH FUNNY MONEY that was discovered recently in St. Augustine.
    Spain sent this FUNNY MONEY to America knowing that the money was not worth very much. Did they care? HELL NO-all they knew was that they could screw the Colonials and get away with it. This FUNNY MONEY was designed to to be passed as the REAL thing.
    No one has the slightest idea how much of this Spanish fake money was passed.
    Pay backs are great.
    Peg Leg

 

 

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