Florida Treasure Salvage boat boarded at sea, treasure confiscated

[AUVnav]

From UNESCO:

8 April 2015/ UNESCOPRESS

At the request of Panama, UNESCO will send a mission to examine the state of conservation of the San José, a Spanish galleon that sank in the archipelago of Las Perlas in the 17th century. A commercial company, Investigaciones Marinas del Istmo (IMDI), has been under contract to salvage the shipwreck since 2003.

The States Parties to UNESCO's Convention on the Protection of Underwater Cultural Heritage meeting in Paris on 28 and 28 today decided to accept the request of the National Institute of Culture of Panama and send experts to the site of the wreck during the first two weeks of July. The mission will be organized by the Scientific and Technical Body of the Convention.

In cooperation with Panamanian experts, the mission will assess work carried out by Investigaciones Marinas del Istmo, to identify, salvage and sell objects found in wreck of the San José. The experts will also establish a management plan for the preservation of the shipwreck and its contents.

Panama in 2003 ratified the Convention on the Protection of the Underwater Cultural Heritage, which aims to safeguard underwater heritage and counter the looting and commercialization of shipwrecks. The Convention also aims to support international research and cooperation.

Twelve experts of international renown make up the Scientific and Technical Advisory body of the Convention. They provide support on scientific and technical issues to the Meeting of States parties to the Convention.

The Spanish galleon San José was built in 1611 and foundered on 17 June 1631 on its way from the Peruvian port of Callao to Panama carrying a large cargo of gold and silver.



Portal de la Cultura de América Latina y el Caribe

Nothing against IMDI, but after all the work that has been done over the years on the San Jose, I find not a single scientific paper on the wrecksite...perhaps someone can provide some examples?

 

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[Au_Dreamers]

"Nothing in the law of admiralty suggests that Spain has abandoned its dead by respecting their final resting place at sea."

Ok this is no Errol Flynn movie...

read this exactly as written.... THE SEA IS the final resting place!

ok now if you've read that exactly as written we can move forward and expand upon it.

In most cases of wooden shipwrecks there is no "ship". There may be pieces of structural remains but there is no intact ship like the Vasa.... and holding the dead bodies of people that were on board.

I challenge anyone to show me the final resting place of the dead in the approximately 26,250,000 sq ft of the Douglas beach wreck site of the 1715 fleet.

If memory serves me correctly, in the longest continuously running shipwreck salvage effort in the history of mankind, no human remains have been found in the water on the wrecks of the "1715 Fleet" in the modern times of the 57+ years.

With the flotation, tide, current and number of shipwrecks of Spanish nationality over the past hundreds of years ALL the world's Oceans and Seas would be considered closed as "grave sites" with the above logic.

No shipping, no commercial fishing, no cruises, no recreational boating....

Look at the so called "Mercedes" damage done by commercial fishing nets...as well as others.

 

[aquanut]

From UNESCO:



Nothing against IMDI, but after all the work that has been done over the years on the San Jose, I find not a single scientific paper on the wrecksite...perhaps someone can provide some examples?

Did you look here?
National Institute of Culture of Panama

 

[AUVnav]

Look at the so called "Mercedes" damage done by commercial fishing nets...as well as others.

There was no documented damage due to fishing at the Mercedes site. There may have been attempts to show the site was 'in peril', but few subscribed to that argument.

Aquanut..I see no documents available anywhere for the San Jose. I would think that IMDI would have published something by now, but cannot find anything, which is why I am asking.

 

[aquanut]

There was no documented damage due to fishing at the Mercedes site. There may have been attempts to show the site was 'in peril', but few subscribed to that argument.

Aquanut..I see no documents available anywhere for the San Jose. I would think that IMDI would have published something by now, but cannot find anything, which is why I am asking.

Maybe Dan Porter can shed some light on your search.

 

[AUVnav]

Thanks.

I think there should be some concern that the same will happen in the US. While the US is not a signatory, the government has agreed to use the principles of the accord.

Goold stated he was going to contact the State of Florida on Spain's behalf...it could easily go the UNESCO route as well..

 

[Slingshot]

Pirates are still with us, except they camouflage themselves in suits and ties and carry briefcases to haul away their loot.

 

[Darren in NC]

It is really sad how things in Panama turned out; however, threatening to steal artifacts isn't going to do anything but cause our industry to lose respect. -Eric Schmitt

I respect you, Eric. I respect Dan Porter and spoke with him a few years ago about his projects down there. But the truth is that, from the outside, our industry never had respect to begin with. We have always been viewed as crazy kooks with gold fever. Mel Fisher was no exception. While we were viewed this way in times past, at least we were left alone. Our risks were our own. Now we no longer have that option. Either we must jump through ridiculous hoops from bureaucrats and/or, if we do find something significant, those same bureaucratic hands will gladly rewrite the rules to take all your hard work away. You are seeing it right in front of your eyes, and yet you still drink their kool-aid. I say to hell with them all. I am a free man, and will never allow anyone to impede the initiative I've taken to better my life.

I was born in the wrong era. I should have been standing by my great-grandfather (many "greats" ago) who fought in the Revolutionary War. He didn't exercise his right to free speech to defeat the British. He shot them...with guns.

As long as you have those who want to have selfish control over you, there will always be those who resist when it doesn't benefit all involved. I am such a man. I respect your decision to differ and go the gov't route. Forgive me if I don't follow.

 

[AUVnav]

Then you are nothing but a petty thief....

 

[ivan salis]

ah read the "fine print" of the contract * Panama keeps 35 % AND ANY ITEM of "significant historical importance" recovered ..AND THEY DECIDED THAT ANY GOLD OR SILVER MONEY FOUND IS "HISTORICALLY IMPORTANT"--SO THE SALVORS CAN KEEP ONLY 65 % OF THE BROKEN POTS AND BRIC A BRAC FOUND .. ITEMS OF ANY REAL FISCAL VALUE --GOLD COINS AND SILVER COINS , ECT -- ARE ALL PANAMA'S "HISTORICALLY HERITAGE" ...(OR SPAINS)

THE LEGAL "SPLIT" HAD BEEN MADE WITH THE COUNTRY ...THE COINS INVOLVED RECORDED.. THE COINS WERE LEGALLY OWED BY THE COMPANY ...THE PART ABOUT THE COMPANY MUST NOTIFY THE COUNTRY WHEN THE "THE TREASURE" IS TO BE EXPORTED IS TO PREVENT ANY SMUGGLING OF UNRECORDED TREASURE * BUT IT ALSO ALLOWS A GREEDY COUNTRY TO "GRAB' THE TRESURE AT THE LAST MINUTE UNDER THE GUISE OF SOME "WRONG DOING" BY THE COMPANY --(A ALL TO COMMON FLIM FLAM PULLED BY 3RD WORLD COUNTRIES * IN THESE TYPE OF CONTRACTS) -- MANY TIMES THESE CONTRACTS LEGALLY "REQUIRE" THAT ANY TRESURE RECOVERED STAY IN A BANK WITHIN THE COUNTRY UNTILTHE ENTIRE "CONTRACT" IS FINISHED --THUS ALL THE TRESURE IS STORED THERE UNTIL THE BITTER END WHEN YOU ARE DONE --ONCE YOU HAVE RECOVERED EVERYTHING AND LEGALLY GIVEN THEM THEIR SHARE AND ARE GETTING READY TO LEAVE WITH YOUR SHARE --THATS WHEN THEY SWOOP IN --GRABBING IT ALL ...CLAIMING SOME SORT OF "WRONG DOING" BY YOU AS A PRETEXT FOR DOING SO..

SO SADLY EVEN AFTER DOING ALL THE LEGAL WORK AND DOING THINGS CORRECTLY -- THEY HAVE TO IN EFFECT "SNEAK OUT THEIR OWN COINS " KINDA HARD WHEN I'M SURE THE BANK MANAGER * HAD THE GOVT FOLKS ON "SPEED DAIL" FOR WHEN YOU COME TO GET THE COINS AS WELL AS MOST LIKELY ACOUPLE OF "GOVT" GUYS ON PERMANT LOOKOUT DETAIL AS WELL..AT THE BANK

 

[ivan salis]

govt (politicans) goal in life is to keep the "working class" working at hard labor which they then tax making money to pay for their "do nothing" easy lives .. to that end they do not want "everyday" folks --"looking for treasure"...since they can not tax ..folks looking for treasure ( since treasure hunters are not making money "looking" for treasure, but rather spending it) only once its found do treasure hunters "make" any money --but the politicans then want to steal the "treasure" out from under those that found it ( greedy lazy suckers that politicans by nature are) ... so poliicans make "rules" that bar the way for common man types to find and obtain "treasures" to keep mr common man at hard labor where they can easily tax his work for their benefit as they work him to death ---that's GRUBBERMINT -- FOR YA -- greedy grabby govt

 

[Darren in NC]

Then you are nothing but a petty thief....

Not everyone can be an honorable slave like yourself. I'll enjoy my freedom while being called a petty thief, but I prefer the term "pirate," if you please. Excuse me, while I go pour tea into the Boston Harbor.

 

[ivan salis]

EVER SEE WHAT OCCURS WHEN YOU HIT SAY 100 MILLION IN A STATE LOTTO? --- the govt run lotto?--- if you want your money now -- the state discounts the amount you get by 40 % to 60 million and then the feds tax it at 38%...(22.8 MILLION) and they withhold THE 22.8 BEFORE YOU GET PAID YOUR FINAL 38.2 MILLION (less than 40% of the 100 million) ....( but if your willing to take it over 20 years you get "the full amount" of 100 million at a rate of 5 mil per year (basically they keep the 100 mil --and give you 5 % interest yearly -- which the govt then taxes at 38 % (so kiss 1.9 of the 5 million goodbye per year ) -- so you get 3.1 mil per year for 20 years (62 million-- that's 38 % taxed and they keep the original 100 million and you basically only get 5 % interest per year ) and that's only if you do not get hit with state and local income taxes as well... so either way --the govt will get at minimum of at least 40% of your lucky day win , and depending upon where you live , with state and local incomes they will get more of your "win" than you will in the end .. ah govt ..their here to help (themselves to your money)

so if you "win" 100 million in the state run lotto and dare to actually want YOUR MONEY NOW ..(hey you gave them that dollar to play the lotto "right now" didn't you?)-- the outcome will be a 60 % govt / $40% you split ...with you getting 40 % (or less ) in the end and only if you are willing to take your money "their way" (over a 20 year time frame ) can you get a 60% cut of "your money"..

 

[G.I.B.]

Then you are nothing but a petty thief....

I respect Darren for saying what he believes in.

Today's society has fostered a culture of speaking only what is acceptable to the outward masses of passive compliance with the new norm.

Having said that, what's the difference between a pirate and a politician?

One takes it with labor.

The other takes it with paperwork.

I don't see a whole lot of difference, other than one is killing trees and one is not.

 

[Darren in NC]

Thanks, GIB. Pirate politicians have been around for some time. Ask Tom Gurr. The state of Florida decided, since his wreck was just outside of the three mile mark, they would reinterpret the three mile mark from a reef offshore rather than the coast. They ruined his life.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/64141-who-real-pirate-here.html

Ron Molinari tried to follow up on Gurr's wreck later, but the state constantly gave him more bureaucracy to keep up with.

The Agony and Ecstasy of Treasure Hunting Today | KeysNews.com

 

[Jason in Enid]

Thanks, GIB. Pirate politicians have been around for some time. Ask Tom Gurr. The state of Florida decided, since his wreck was just outside of the three mile mark, they would reinterpret the three mile mark from a reef offshore rather than the coast. They ruined his life.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/shipwrecks/64141-who-real-pirate-here.html

Ron Molinari tried to follow up on Gurr's wreck later, but the state constantly gave him more bureaucracy to keep up with.

The Agony and Ecstasy of Treasure Hunting Today | KeysNews.com

Yep, suuuure is smart to keep playing by THEIR rules. LOL

 

[ivan salis]

mel fisher had to go to court with the state of florida and the fed govt when he hit his atocha find * --both the state of florida and fed govts tried to screw him by "redefining" what their terrority waters were so that they could get a chunk if not all of mel's wreck ..thankfully mel had good lawyers and a "honest" judge that ruled by law and was not swayed not by political pressure ... both govts have a bad track record of trying to screw treasure hunters out of what they find and of state and fed archies "road blocking" them from obtaining salvage permits to harvest stuff to sell to make a "profiet" ...oh sure you can get all the "explore and research" --( lookie lou) permits you want (so long as any data you collect the state gets a copy of --so in effect your doing "free research for them")....but when it comes time to get the only permit that actually pays the bills, the one that allows actual bringing stuff off the bottom for sale to the public ---so sorry Charlie no can do.. so too bad ,so sad for you..

a few years ago --I personally "undercover" attended a "archie fest" type event in St. Augustine , while there I heard both florida and georgia state archies "crowing" about how they had "blocked" all new work salvage permits for another year * -- I guess the florida state archies failed to read the judges orders to the state at the end of the mel fisher trial -- that they were to "set up" a permitting process by which permits WERE to be issued ..(not to block them from being issued as the archies were clearly doing and seeking to do on purpose ).

those that know me also know that awhile back in ponte verda * the state of florida wanted to "re do" the rules on salvage ...one rule would have required that you have a "project archie" from a certain state "approved" group to be able to get a "salvage permit" ...but the catch was that "certain group" had a by law which prohibited any member of it from working for any "for profeit" group --any member that took on work for a "for profiet group" was kicked out upon doing so -- so it would be impossible for a "for profiet group" to get a "approved project archie" to apply for a salvage permit -- thus only non profiet groups could get a salvage permit --(in effect this catch 22 would put "for profiet" salvors out of business ) --thankfuly --I caught this and brought it up during the public comment time -- I said you are making by law a "impossible" standard to meet --these salvage people WILL be forced to sue the state , and you will lose the suit and I the florida taxpayer will have to foot the bill-- I am offically protesting this on the record , ---(they pulled it from the bill *)

 

[Jolly Mon]

Your post is out of context to my response. NOTE

The thread is about Spains claims to shipwrecks in the US and Florida...

ALSO NOTE that Odyssey brought the Mercedes recovery into the US, whereas in rem adjudication applied. Hence, SMCA could have been applicable, as the Court case showed, Odyssey TRIED unsuccessfully with the SMCA 'non-commercial' attempt.

AS noted with the Cory determination in the Juno, the ruling was clear, "and where the nations involved all agree that title to the shipwrecks remains with the original owner."

A foreign embassy in the US is sovereign, and certainly includes non- military and commercial activity.




You should READ the rest of the post. Comprehension, well...

The only thing out of context is that you are a gas station attendant who tries to pass himself off as a nautical archaeologist...LOL.

SCMA could NEVER have been relevant to the Odyssey case in terms of ownership of the vessel or any recovered artifacts.

The courts looked at legislative intent in SMCA to determine whether or not Mercedes qualified as a military vessel even though she was manifestly on a mission that was primarily commercial. That is all.

But of course you did not know that...as your post clearly shows.

As far as "Seahunt vs. Unidentifed", even though Spain sought desperately to establish it as precedent in the Odyssey case, the court refused to bite.

Your contention that SMCA is "moot" in regards to potential Spanish shipwrecks in US waters is simply absurd.

 

[aquanut]

Not everyone can be an honorable slave like yourself. I'll enjoy my freedom while being called a petty thief, but I prefer the term "pirate," if you please. Excuse me, while I go pour tea into the Boston Harbor.

I'm with you Darren. Excuse me, while I go pour another Rum and Coke and plan my next treasure hunt!

 

[Au_Dreamers]

The thread is about Spains claims to shipwrecks in the US and Florida...

You should READ the rest of the post. Comprehension, well...

Actually the thread OP is about an American vessel being boarded while returning to American waters and artifacts from Panama from the San Jose wreck being confiscated by American Homeland Security!

refer to your own quote for the irony in your insult....