tayopa, legend or reality ...?

[the blindbowman]

now ask your self if the tayopa stone and mud room was made of tailings and the fort was made with tailings and some of the gold shine threw the walls , is that what kino saw ...?

the legend may have had a logical reason ...



"You have not mentioned how you got those figures - did you go into the shaft and get measurements, or are making an educated guess-estimate,

i looked in the shaft and judge it frist hand by what i saw , thats why i said the discription waltz gave was very close..i would say within a 1/2ft in any dirrection ...

 

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[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Joe I don't think we are confusing the two - for the record, in lode mining "tailings" are processed ore materials from which the valuable mineral(s) have been removed as best they could, "waste" rock is the overburden or "country rock" that has little or no valuable mineral but still has to be removed in order to facilitate mining the ore body. In placer mining, even though the "ore" is not a solid rock, after the gravels have been processed the remaining material is commonly referred to as "tailings". In both cases, they are good to excellent clues to the presence of a mine near by - but not necessarily close by; for we know that good quality ore was often hauled to a processing mill to be crushed and treated. Finding waste rock alone also would not be a good clue to a mine, as this is what you would find in any prospect pit or tunnel working, and is what we find dotting around the Superstitions in various places where the early Dutch-hunters believed the Lost Dutchman to be. Sorry for the delay there, no I didn't need to look any of that up - mi dinner was reddy!

Cactusjumper said:

Here is a picture of the "waste" from the "dump" that most likely came from the LDM

That is quite a statement Joe, which probably ought to be addressed in the LDM threads but I do have to ask, why you say this material most likely came from the LDM?

Blindbowman wrote:

i think they used the waste and tailings to build the fort

That is a rather surprising point - I would expect that freshly-dug rock would not make the best material to build a fortification from, as it would "stand out" from the surrounding countryside. However if it were readily available and there was a need for a defensive structure, it makes sense. I do not recall you ever mentioning the presence of a FORT before though amigo, I must have missed it. How far away from the shaft or vault would you estimate the fort to be? (A guess-estimate is fine)

I have another question (yep I just never seem to run out of them questions! ) but let me ask you, Blindbowman, a hypothetical one:

What would it mean to you, if what you discovered proved to be ONE of the fabulous lost sites that you have mentioned, but NOT any of the others? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

bb,

"i looked in the shaft and judge it frist hand by what i saw , thats why i said the discription waltz gave was very close..i would say within a 1/2ft in any dirrection ..."

Will you be posting a picture of the shaft?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

My first assumption would be......that you know your rocks.

"That is quite a statement Joe, which probably ought to be addressed in the LDM threads but I do have to ask, why you say this material most likely came from the LDM?"

The arguments pro and con can be found at the site posted below. The thread is a bit lengthy because of a proliferation of B.S. that often is injected into a serious topic, in an effort to derail it.

You can read the posts and judge the merits of either side for yourself.

Take care,

Joe

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/pb/viewtopic.php?t=1122

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias Joe, I will take advantage of the suggestion. Just another observation - but I know that my little heart would do an extra THUMP or three if I were to find ore that looks like that, and yes you DO know how to get an old treasure hunter's ticker going! (Without even resorting to any naked ladies! ) I have not forgotten that very interesting ore photo you posted in el Naranjal - boy howdy would I ever flip if I found a vein like that!

One more thing - would you say that any of that ore vein might still be there, perhaps not quite exposed to the surface? Thank you in advance,

Ed T wrote:

I am inclined to go with Real on this one...

Me too amigo, but I do have to admit that when I first learned of our mutual friend's discoveries, I had the usual serious doubts - you know how often someone makes claims of having found lost mines only to find that they found AN old mine, but not a famous lost one; so I really put Jose' to the test with a battery of questions that would tire out most folks. I became convinced of what he found after numerous conversations, and HOPE to be able to get to visit his mines one day - even if it means riding (shudders..) a MULE! Not to give you a swelled head amigo Ed - but I think you also have found something VERY interesting!

Blindbowman I know about a stone fort in the Superstitions, which is why I asked about the distance; was this fort or "fort" located high on a ridge, or down in a canyon? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[the blindbowman]

the fort is stated in the peralta lost vein story of the sombrero mine ...

"What would it mean to you, if what you discovered proved to be ONE of the fabulous lost sites that you have mentioned, but NOT any of the others? "

the best out come would be to see a few people walk away knowing solveing a legend is a matter skill and hard work , to prove my father was right and the mine could be found by the right preson if he had the skills and self drive to see the out come ...

what is victory with out others to share it with ...i think the true reward is not in finding the mine or proveing what it is .. the true reward here would be to find the church records ,change history and define the truth from the unknown ...

i would like to see you and CJ danceing around the camp fire like kids still beleive dreams can come true . why everything is moveing fast and smiles and rewards are endless let me set still and watch the smiles on your faces , let me know my life has not been wasted for greed or foolishness ..

let it mean something after my eyes close for the last time . let me walk into the world i vist o often knowing those behind me will miss the blindbowman . and a great man once walked the trail with them as one of them ..


let me free the spirits and clear the evil from this land of beauty in the hope that respect and honer can refill a secerd place .. let me at lest try and know i have done my best ...

let me take my rightfull place where great hawks fly free threw the winds of thunder ....

life is our reward . let it mean something . to us and those around us ..

what dose a man wish for that remebers many lifes ...?

let me remind the world what great shaman are ...the power to see beyond the reality we live in now . a dream walker , a seer .... beyond these words that define us ...


none of the treasure of gold means anything to me . greed can not hold or own this shaman nothing ever will ...freedom is to know there is something beyond your self and this reality

if my only reward is time it self so be it ...

 

[the blindbowman]

its high up on a mt.

good night

 

[cactusjumper]

For the life of me, I can't figure out why this vision flashed before my eyes after reading post #214:

Burma Shave......Burma Shave........Burma Shave.

I can't sleep. Each time I close my eyes those words keep appearing. Can anyone tell me what it means

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman - the stone fort on a mountain - without telling the exact location, could you say whether it is east of Weaver's Needle or west of it? (I am trying to figure out if the one I know of is the very same one you are talking about) by the way amigo, ever dabble in poetry?

<begin rant>
You know, you have touched on one of my pet 'peeves' - we treasure hunters are so often accused of being nothing but "greedy" well I sure wish that I could get some of those accusers to come along on a treasure hunt - I would bet a silver dollar to a donut that what ever GREED might have been in their blood would evaporate quicker than pee on a hot stone in Death Valley in June after the first day's hiking! If that didn't do it, after some nice fat blisters erupt on their feet, and some of the local insect life decides to have lunch at your expense (that bug dope only lasts just so long, especially if you are sweating) followed by a few good days of trying to crack earth up into chunks with a pick and hammer, and I am positive that no GREED would remain within them. Did I forget to mention the nasty sunburn, the shall we say, "primitive" toilet facilities, the chance of getting stung by scorpions, attacked by bees or mountain lions, or snake bite? (In the north country we could avoid the scorpions and snakes, but substitute huge bears, wolves, wolverines, etc a fair trade IMHO)

Actually I have another similar pet peeve, un-related, you know how SO many rich and famous folks immediately want to run out west and buy up a huge ranch, paying six to ten times the actual value and driving up real estate prices state-wide? I only wish that they would take two weeks and come on out, and TRY IT - I can bet that any romantic ideas of working on horseback, trying to handle cattle and sheep that are 100% wild animals who will try to hurt you, (hey those COWS are often much more dangerous than the bulls - especially when you try to touch one of their babies!) - eating the mixture of dirt and dry manure dust that comes up in clouds when you try to drive a herd, (not to mention what this does to your backside, hours of riding that leather has a peculiar effect the first few times that is best left un-described ) getting your hands ripped to shreds by barbed wire - especially when you get a break while you are trying to fix it, and I would again bet that silver dollar against the proverbial donut that they would NOT want to be buying up big ranches out west for Hollywood prices! Grr! Oh well they just hire dumb guys like me to do that sort of crappy work.... ) <end rant>

Ed - your hunch is probably correct - but remember most copper mines also carry GOLD values, and I would never sneer at a copper mine, not with copper prices running up near $4 a POUND nowadays! I look forward to hearing more!

Cactusjumper wrote:

,<snip>Each time I close my eyes those words keep appearing. Can anyone tell me what it means

By any chance do you have a bit of psychic ability amigo?

Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Ed - you mentioned 13 mines, may I ask which state of Mexico they are in, or mostly in if they are on a border? (Now I have to go look up another Mexican legendary lost mine group this reminds me of... )
Oroblanco

 

[Jeffro]

Just for giggles, may I remind you folks that the Dutchman and the Peraltas have been associated by writers since 1914-1930? The association has continued ever since. Where Tayopa falls in is anybodies guess.

After seeing folks debate this for many years now, it's my opinion that the Dutchman is nothing more than a high grade pocket, worked out and done many years ago. They dot the landscape all over southern Oregon and Northern CA, some of which have produced more gold with digs less than 10 or 20 feet deep!

Why all the hooplah over this one, I'll never know. Perhaps its because people are seeking a vein that keeps going?

Someone woulda found it by now. It's been looked after for going on a hundred years now. Every inch of the Sups has been trod over many times.

If you wanna hit a good one, spend some time pocket hunting in known pocket areas. Chances are slim, but better than finding the Dutchman.

 

[the blindbowman]

Oro..." if i told ya , i would have to kill ya ! ...LOL "

Cj often members of your father take that place ...dont worry it will drive you nuts for a few weeks and then vanish as fast as it started ..lol ...


Ed i totally agree 100% in most cases a small pocket deposite like the Sombrero mine and note i am only calling it the sombrero for sake of focusing on the topic and not all the debate that goes with the other names of the mines wich one word of them comes out of your mouth and the world throws everything but the kitchen sink at you ....lol

i can only tell you that i beleive the true mine may be as much as 20 times the size the dutchman thaught it was ....the only mine i have seen that even comes close is the 16 to 1 mine .. but with one thing diffrent . the vein is like no other vein i have ever seen it looks to be the width of a road or more and at times as thich as 1 yard deep , the main ore vein is about 2ft thich ..the vein looks to be about 400 ft long and only about 7 ft of the vein has been worked at all .but i know for a fact this vein runs at lest 1200 ft .....and i beleive i see this vein surface again a 1/4 mile from the area of the 1200 ft mark ...so the over all vein could run as much as 2/3 of a mile long ...

i figerd about 600 cubic pre 10ft by 20ft wide of vein and the vein looks to me to be about 3960 ft long ,thats 237600 cubic at about 36.6 cubic pre metric ton 6491.8 metric tons of ore ...just a rough guess IMHO


so you must be right, there is nothing speacal about this deposite ...LOL other then the fact my calculate was to lemited to calculate the number of onces in that amont and it could very well exceed the 147.6 million onces in fort knots , then you would be right ,there is nothing speaical about this mine ...

 

[the blindbowman]

i can only say if it comes down to who can aford the best laywers,... i would win ...

 

[Jeffro]

Oro..." if i told ya , i would have to kill ya ! ...LOL "

Cj often members of your father take that place ...dont worry it will drive you nuts for a few weeks and then vanish as fast as it started ..lol ...


Ed i totally agree 100% in most cases a small pocket deposite like the Sombrero mine and note i am only calling it the sombrero for sake of focusing on the topic and not all the debate that goes with the other names of the mines wich one word of them comes out of your mouth and the world throws everything but the kitchen sink at you ....lol

i can only tell you that i beleive the true mine may be as much as 20 times the size the dutchman thaught it was ....the only mine i have seen that even comes close is the 16 to 1 mine .. but with one thing diffrent . the vein is like no other vein i have ever seen it looks to be the width of a road or more and at times as thich as 1 yard deep , the main ore vein is about 2ft thich ..the vein looks to be about 400 ft long and only about 7 ft of the vein has been worked at all .but i know for a fact this vein runs at lest 1200 ft .....and i beleive i see this vein surface again a 1/4 mile from the area of the 1200 ft mark ...so the over all vein could run as much as 2/3 of a mile long ...

i figerd about 600 cubic pre 10ft by 20ft wide of vein and the vein looks to me to be about 3960 ft long ,thats 237600 cubic at about 36.6 cubic pre metric ton 6491.8 metric tons of ore ...just a rough guess IMHO


so you must be right, there is nothing speacal about this deposite ...LOL other then the fact my calculate was to lemited to calculate the number of onces in that amont and it could very well exceed the 147.6 million onces in fort knots , then you would be right ,there is nothing speaical about this mine ...

Interesting that this highly visible vein has never been spotted by all the people stomping all over the area for a hundred years. Downright freaky that you're the only one who has laid eyes on it. What're the odds?

 

[Oroblanco]

Jeffro wrote:

Someone woulda found it by now

I respectfully disagree with this statement amigo, that his assuming that a perfect and complete search has been made, which is not the case. There are examples of lost places much larger than a small "rat-hole" type of mine, such as entire cities, which went un-discovered for centuries, even with farmers literally plowing up the site annually.

Jeffro also wrote:

Interesting that this highly visible vein has never been spotted by all the people stomping all over the area for a hundred years

Who claims that the LDM ore vein is highly visible? Did I miss that? (It happens! ) Jacob Waltz said that the mine was tough to find, even when you know where it is - hardly what I would describe as "highly visible". Then too a large percentage of the folks who have gone stomping around those beautiful hills would not know an ore vein if they sat on it, so many of them are relying upon "clues" to locate the mine, without expending any energy to learn anything about geology or prospecting that might help them to know at least what they are looking at. I put the term "clues" in quotes because I am fairly convinced that those "clues" are not worth the ink it takes to write them down, in fact I would say that they are far more likely to be MIS-leading. With the LDM, only the ore is ever going to prove it once and for all.

Ed T wrote:

I told you I was playing outside of Durango...So I guess it would be in the state of Durango, unless it runs into Chihuahua, or Sinaloa...

I am really not quite sure Oro...Though it is pretty close to a small pueblo named Ide...

Okay amigo you don't have to get any more specific than that. I was thinking of the Minas Prietas lost mines, but can't find my own books on it and a Google found zilch - anyone have the info on Minas Prietas handy? I am curious if that did not have a group of 13 mines, including copper? I seem to recall something about the Brits claiming to have found it and working it around the turn of the century, or what they believed was a part of it.

Blindbowman wrote:

Oro..." if i told ya , i would have to kill ya ! ...LOL "

Then I would be better off NOT knowing it seems! One of those incidents where ignorance is healthy? (If ignorance were really "bliss" as the saying goes, I ought to be ecstatic! )

Blindbowman also wrote:

i can only tell you that i beleive the true mine may be as much as 20 times the size the dutchman thaught it was

If you think about it, that would not make sense - if the Dutchman was there digging and working, it seems more likely that he would have found extensive workings if that were the case - doesn't it?

Blindbowman also wrote:

so you must be right, there is nothing speacal about this deposite ...LOL other then the fact my calculate was to lemited to calculate the number of onces in that amont and it could very well exceed the 147.6 million onces in fort knots , then you would be right ,there is nothing speaical about this mine

Who said there was nothing special about the mine? Blindbowman mi amigo you seem to deal with a lot of absolutes, when perhaps the case is not absolute? Let me explain - for instance, when you have a set of clues that seems to fit with what you have found, you feel comfortable going ahead and saying that what you found IS the site associated with those clues, when I would sooner say that I believe it COULD be the site, which leaves a little room "just in case" some more evidence should turn up to prove that idea wrong. I don't recall saying that "there is nothing special about this mine" in any post. I think I said that it is POSSIBLE that it might not be anything remarkable, don't you see a difference in that statement? Cubfan mentioned your habit of a rather cavalier use of the term "fact" which seems to me to be an example of this tendency towards absolutes, when it could be more appropriate to use cautious, conservative words. I can give you a direct example too - for some years ago Mrs Oro and I went on a determined search for a less-famous lost mine in California, known popularly as the "lost Arch". There are several versions of the story to this lost mine, one of which involves a man-made arch connecting a two-room cabin, the other involving a natural arch that is close to the mine. Well we did find a very old gold mine, along with the remains of a two-room cabin, with NO trace of a man-made arch, but DID have a natural stone arch quite close to the mine. The gold was pretty good and we turned a fair profit, but sure didn't get rich - so if I had the habit of saying things in absolutes, like it appears you do, I would go ahead and claim that we have found the Lost Arch mine - however I cannot prove this to be the Lost Arch beyond all doubt, even though I am fairly convinced it is - I say that we found what we BELIEVE could be the Lost Arch mine. Do you get what I am driving at? Just a noticeable difference in the way we say things here.

Got to get back to work, just wanted to see how the discussion was progressing, will be back later...
Oroblanco

 

[Jeffro]

i can only tell you that i beleive the true mine may be as much as 20 times the size the dutchman thaught it was ....the only mine i have seen that even comes close is the 16 to 1 mine .. but with one thing diffrent . the vein is like no other vein i have ever seen it looks to be the width of a road or more and at times as thich as 1 yard deep , the main ore vein is about 2ft thich ..the vein looks to be about 400 ft long and only about 7 ft of the vein has been worked at all .but i know for a fact this vein runs at lest 1200 ft .....and i beleive i see this vein surface again a 1/4 mile from the area of the 1200 ft mark ...so the over all vein could run as much as 2/3 of a mile long ...

i figerd about 600 cubic pre 10ft by 20ft wide of vein and the vein looks to me to be about 3960 ft long ,thats 237600 cubic at about 36.6 cubic pre metric ton 6491.8 metric tons of ore ...just a rough guess IMHO

Quote
Interesting that this highly visible vein has never been spotted by all the people stomping all over the area for a hundred years

Who claims that the LDM ore vein is highly visible? Did I miss that? (It happens! ) Jacob Waltz said that the mine was tough to find, even when you know where it is - hardly what I would describe as "highly visible". Then too a large percentage of the folks who have gone stomping around those beautiful hills would not know an ore vein if they sat on it, so many of them are relying upon "clues" to locate the mine, without expending any energy to learn anything about geology or prospecting that might help them to know at least what they are looking at. I put the term "clues" in quotes because I am fairly convinced that those "clues" are not worth the ink it takes to write them down, in fact I would say that they are far more likely to be MIS-leading. With the LDM, only the ore is ever going to prove it once and for all.

BB did. He claims it's 2/3 of a mile long and as wide as a road. He also claims to have spotted sections a 1/4 mile away.

I'm just saying that with all the people stomping around there for a hundred years, it seems highly unlikely nobody spotted it until Bowman.

 

[cactusjumper]

Jeffro,

You are correct......Sir. Said he saw it and took pictures, as I recall.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[the blindbowman]

where did i say it was visable ...?

 

[Jeffro]

i can only tell you that i beleive the true mine may be as much as 20 times the size the dutchman thaught it was ....the only mine i have seen that even comes close is the 16 to 1 mine .. but with one thing diffrent . the vein is like no other vein i have ever seen it looks to be the width of a road or more and at times as thich as 1 yard deep , the main ore vein is about 2ft thich ..the vein looks to be about 400 ft long and only about 7 ft of the vein has been worked at all .but i know for a fact this vein runs at lest 1200 ft .....and i beleive i see this vein surface again a 1/4 mile from the area of the 1200 ft mark ...so the over all vein could run as much as 2/3 of a mile long ...

i figerd about 600 cubic pre 10ft by 20ft wide of vein and the vein looks to me to be about 3960 ft long ,thats 237600 cubic at about 36.6 cubic pre metric ton 6491.8 metric tons of ore ...just a rough guess IMHO

Right here-

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, you posted -->

perhaps our mutual friend Real de Tayopa can describe the 'average' type of rock at Tayopa?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hydro thermal intrusion of extensive, deep, essentially vertical, Basalt faulting.

Don Jose de La Mancha