Unidentifed button stamped No. 1 Possibly Rev War.

[jacobgosling]

Hi,

For your consideration. I purchased this oddity from a seller who found it amongst a small lot of dug items he acquired at the Gettysburg Civil War Show.

The metal appears to be a copper or brass alloy. On the reverse, the remnant of a boss or burr base which appears to have once secured an Omega-type wire eye.
I have never seen anything like this. American-made Buttons of the Revolutionary War period are usually one piece with a drilled shank, so I am skeptical this could be state militia or Continental.

The button certainly appears to predate the Civil War Period. The decorative scrolled '1' is reminiscence of an American Circa War of 1812 type.

Any ideas?

P.S. As a collector who has purchased all my items, I am writhing and twisting with envy of the guys (and gals?) who go out in the trenches and get to experience the excitement of rescuing history. Someday I'll be out there! Like Kurt Franz, the detectorist who found that extraordinarily mint condition Revolutionary War period USA button on the bottom of a lake. If it was me who found it, I'd probably have a stroke or heart attack.

Regards,

JG

 

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[Wildcat1750]

Someone here can surely help you out...Nice button!

 

[CRUSADER]

Tagging post.
I've not seen one like it, so will watch & learn.

 

[smokeythecat]

I have handled hundreds of 18th century and thousands of 19th century buttons. I'd lean toward mid to late 19th century, as it matches nothing either is the metal or style from the Rev War.

 

[jacobgosling]

Hi,


I must respectfully challenge the idea that this could be a "mid to late-19th century" button. (what are you kidding?). The architecture of the shank would preclude that possibility. Although I can present no proof of what this button is, there is NOTHING to rule out the possibility that this button is American and dates to the period of the American Revolution. I have a large collection of British, French and American Revolutionary War Period buttons and have not seen anything like it. Which is why I decided to create a thread entitled "Unidentified button stamped No. 1 Possibly Rev War." here on TN.

I suspect this button will defy identification unless another example with historical provenance presents itself. Perhaps this will remain the greatest and most intriguing button mystery in the history of Treasurenet.com. Or not...lol

Kind regards,

JG (NJ)

STATISTICS OF MYSTERY BUTTON

Button type: flat disc (planchet)
Button shape: round
Button material: copper alloy; possibly pewter element
Button colour: golden ochre brown
Button eye: not applicable
Button shank style: Version 1) cone with wire eye 2) wire shank set into a boss (knob-like mass) of metal (*Pewter, perhaps with some silver alloyed)
Button back stamp: none
Decorative technique: Indeterminate. Stamped or molded.
Decorative motif: stylized Arabic number '1'
Button shank condition: Boss intact, wire eye broken off on level with top of boss.
Dimensions: .85 inches
Weight: .8 grams

*The formatting standards on TN apparently do not allow full-size images in posts. Please utilize the three part process for seeing the "thumbnail" in actual size.

 

[Iron Patch]

Quite sure you can rule out American, British and French. It's Something we don't see posted much... Russian etc..

PS: You're comparing pictures of buttons that are made in an entirely different way with different metal. Not saying your button can't be early, but am saying that comparison basically proves it's not early American.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Check Sweden--it may have come over with a Swedish settler. The odd-serif at the bottom of the 1 reminds me of the style I've seen on 19th c. Scandinavian stamps.

 

[jacobgosling]

Skeptical in NJ

Hi,

Is it your position that since the motif of the numeral on the mystery button or it's patination doesn't exactly match '10' control samples, that it can't be early American or British? There are hundreds of variants in American State militia and British Regimental buttons.

My comparison was intended to suggest that state militia buttons could be simple and be decorated with nothing more than a number. The button was 'dug' in the Southern United States. Funny things happen to metal alloys when they are underground for 244 years. The idea that this button could be "Russian" or "other" is highly speculative. I'm open to the idea it's British or French, but I feel somewhat skeptical about the idea that it is "other."


However, I am taking a contrary position to your own by maintaining that 'nothing' has been ruled out. It could be a Revolutionary War Period American, French, or British military button. It could be a livery button. It could have been made in someone's garage last Friday.

You conveniently ignored the fact that the shank on the mystery button is almost identical to the shank on the Continental Navy button.

In my opinion, this is an open case, and to date, nothing has been proven or disproven.

I greatly appreciate the interest and participation thus far by the forum's members.

 

[jacobgosling]

Hi Erik,

Nice to see a Garden State neighbour on the Forum. It is my position that the mystery button presents architecture that is indicative of a mid- to late-eighteenth century button. The button was dug in the Southern United States and not Gloucester County New Jersey or anywhere along the Delaware River (where it would have likely disintegrated in our often corrosive soils). Thus, I doubt it is colonial Swedish. The button's age (as I believe it to be) also precludes the possibility it was brought over by some Swedish immigrant to South Carolina or Georgia in the 19th or early 20th century. And remember, the button was 'dug.'

However, to date, nothing pertaining to this mystery button has been proven or disproven. I'm still looking for comparable examples of that stylized number one with the unusual "serif." I never leave any leaf unturned and will keep Sweden in mind.

P.S. You're a metal detectorist in New Jersey? Have you posted any of your finds? I'd be interested in seeing them. So far, I've purchased all my artifacts. I look forward to going out in the field some day and digging around like The Hoover Boys. Digging an historic treasure out of the ground is no doubt much more fun than buying one!

Thanks.

JG - Southern New Jersey Historian | Genealogist | Collector of stuff.

 

[smokeythecat]

One comment on French buttons - from just before the American Revolution and into the Napoleonic era, the French military buttons had what is called a "turret" shank. The earliest ones were like a pencil eraser with two holes drilled 90 degrees from each other. This allowed for a total of 4 holes, one going in and one going out on the back. By the time of the revolution, the materials they used changed and brass was the favored metal, all the way through WWI. Shanks became more clumsy at time progressed. The French buttons started to take on a curve to the face and stopped being flat probably by about 1830. The shanks, when viewed from the side, looked like little upside down bowls with no foot. There were larger holes drilled again, 90 degrees from each other for the thread.

British 18th century buttons were primarily of two general types. The enlisted men's buttons were made of cast pewter, and had a "boss", a large blob of pewter on the back with an iron wire embedded into the pewter to be sewn on the coat. The officer's buttons were stamped brass and had gold or silver plating on them. They had a stand up brass shank. There were some differences in design between the enlisted and officer's buttons.

If you don't have a copy, I would recommend Troiani's "Insignia of Independence". It lists the known buttons of the Rev war and some others found in the Caribbean and elsewhere.

 

[Erik in NJ]

Hi Jacob,

Yes I have posted numerous finds here on TNet over the last ten years. I took a break from detecting for the last two years (life got in the way ), but I'm back as I believe this is the best detecting forum on the Internet with some very knowledgeable folks. You can do a search on my ID and click on the two banner finds I have been lucky enough to make. As a philatelist I'd recommend taking a look at some early European stamps for the type of stylized serif that you have on your button as it might provide some clues as to country of origin. I'm in Bergen County but happy to get together sometime for some detecting.

--Erik

Hi Erik,

Nice to see a Garden State neighbour on the Forum. It is my position that the mystery button presents architecture that is indicative of a mid- to late-eighteenth century button. The button was dug in the Southern United States and not Gloucester County New Jersey or anywhere along the Delaware River (where it would have likely disintegrated in our often corrosive soils). Thus, I doubt it is colonial Swedish. The button's age (as I believe it to be) also precludes the possibility it was brought over by some Swedish immigrant to South Carolina or Georgia in the 19th or early 20th century. And remember, the button was 'dug.'

However, to date, nothing pertaining to this mystery button has been proven or disproven. I'm still looking for comparable examples of that stylized number one with the unusual "serif." I never leave any leaf unturned and will keep Sweden in mind.

P.S. You're a metal detectorist in New Jersey? Have you posted any of your finds? I'd be interested in seeing them. So far, I've purchased all my artifacts. I look forward to going out in the field some day and digging around like The Hoover Boys. Digging an historic treasure out of the ground is no doubt much more fun than buying one!

Thanks.

JG - Southern New Jersey Historian | Genealogist | Collector of stuff.

 

[jacobgosling]

Hi Smokey,

Thank you for this very thoughtful, well-articulated and knowledgeable reply.

Firstly, my personal library includes all of those outrageously expensive out-of-print button books, including: Albert, Alphaeus. Record of American Uniform and Historical Buttons; as well as Troiani and O'Donnell's Military Buttons of the American Revolution. Both editions.

I do not live and die by these resources alone. I have found that the "experts" are sometimes wrong or not always entirely correct.
I collect the French Scroll Buttons you mentioned. I have the entire series, 1 through 100+ (I think). I obtain them from sellers in Canada, Europe, and even Israel. I've noticed that the buttons from Canada all have a turret (birdcage) shank, but that many of the buttons from Europe and Israel are of a one piece cast or Omega-type eye.

My conclusion? Not all French Scroll buttons are Napoleonic or post Revolution as some would claim, and that many of the turret buttons are in fact of the American Revolutionary War period.

I have many of the Brass French Scroll buttons, and some still retain a very beautiful gilding. They are all of the turreted shank type.

The French Scroll was even used by some British Regimental units, though not with a turreted shank.
A '5' French Scroll button was dug on private land near Concord on the Battle Road. How would a Napoleonic or War of 1812 button get there? I know of no engagements during the war of 1812 that occurred anywhere near that area. I assume the button is British.

*Below, a French Scroll Button that is actually Polish, and back-marked with the German and Polish: "Münchheimer War (Warszawa)" Quite odd! This button dates between 1807- 1815.

People who love this stuff are a special breed. I'm glad to have found a nest of them here at TN...lol

Best regards,

JG

 

[CC Hunter]

The mystery button featuring a stylized numeral 1 is likely European, dating around the period of the Napoleonic Wars.

A Spanish example currently offered for sale appears to be constructed of cast pewter, or similar material, and displays a numeral 1 of comparable style.


CC Hunter

 

[jacobgosling]

CC: CC Hunter

Hi,

Who are you? Sherlock Holmes? What an amazing comparable you've discovered. You're my hero CC Hunter...lol

I may have to tip my hat to Iron Patch. It appears my mystery button might indeed be an "other."

The mystery button was found down South. The Spanish were active in Florida during the Revolutionary War, Napoleonic and War of 1812 period.

The shanks are quite different, but my button might be an earlier example.

Not American, but I'll cherish my button all the same.

Eureka. I think you've solved the mystery! I'm in your debt.

I went to purchase this button but discovered to my dismay that it is offered by a seller I will not again do business with. What a coincidence...lol

Best regards and with gratitude,

JG

P.S. I have many other interesting mysteries for the forum community's consideration.

 

[CRUSADER]

CC: CC Hunter

Hi,

Who are you? Sherlock Holmes? What an amazing comparable you've discovered. You're my hero CC Hunter...lol

I may have to tip my hat to Iron Patch. It appears my mystery button might indeed be an "other."

The mystery button was found down South. The Spanish were active in Florida during the Revolutionary War, Napoleonic and War of 1812 period.

The shanks are quite different, but my button might be an earlier example.

Not American, but I'll cherish my button all the same.

Eureka. I think you've solved the mystery! I'm in your debt.

I went to purchase this button but discovered to my dismay that it is offered by a seller I will not again do business with. What a coincidence...lol

Best regards and with gratitude,

JG

P.S. I have many other interesting mysteries for the forum community's consideration.

Glad I followed, I normally have a good guess but none for this one!
Next time ​post in the What Is It forum, & like this one we will solve them. This forum is probably the best on the internet for that.

 

[ecmjamsit]

Elite Guard Regiment 1

Regiment 1 of the Spanish Army was formed to protect the King according to this link. Sounds similar to the Queens Guard seen around Buckingham Palace today. For that button to be found in the Americas seems really rare. What was a member of the Kings Guard doing here? Could be a real good story to this find!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_Regiment_"Inmemorial_del_Rey"_No._1


Official Website:

https://ejercito.defensa.gob.es/unidades/Madrid/rinf1/

 

[jacobgosling]

Glad I followed, I normally have a good guess but none for this one!
Next time ​post in the What Is It forum, & like this one we will solve them. This forum is probably the best on the internet for that.

Thanks for the tip Crusader. I will definitely post my next mystery (I have many!) in the "What Is it forum." I am not at all disappointed to learn that this button is not State Militia or even American. I'm very pleased to know what I actually have. I possess a few Spanish Colonial items, but I don't generally collect Spanish militaria, buttons, coins (aside from Cobs) and the like. As a collector, I concentrate mostly on acquiring American and British, and to some degree, French. My recent foray into Native American artifacts was brief and partly disastrous. I am the (not so) proud owner of the most expensive soapstone paperweight in New Jersey...lol

*How do we get one of those 'solved mystery' badges on this thread?

Regards,

JG

 

[jacobgosling]

CC: ecmjamsit

So the mystery continues? Jeesh!...lol Perhaps the button didn't end up in the ground contemporary to its creation or use. Maybe it came over at a more recent date, and somehow ended up in the ground like a Seated quarter or Indian Head penny? Of this puzzle, it seems doubtful we'll ever find the missing pieces.

Because of the shank on my button, I am still convinced it dates to the late 18th, very early 19th century. The comparable found on ebay has a completely different shank.

Regards,

JG

 

[CRUSADER]

Thanks for the tip Crusader. I will definitely post my next mystery (I have many!) in the "What Is it forum." I am not at all disappointed to learn that this button is not State Militia or even American. I'm very pleased to know what I actually have. I possess a few Spanish Colonial items, but I don't generally collect Spanish militaria, buttons, coins (aside from Cobs) and the like. As a collector, I concentrate mostly on acquiring American and British, and to some degree, French. My recent foray into Native American artifacts was brief and partly disastrous. I am the (not so) proud owner of the most expensive soapstone paperweight in New Jersey...lol

*How do we get one of those 'solved mystery' badges on this thread?

Regards,

JG

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/369859-how-mark-your-what-solved-photo-tutorial.html

 

[Iron Patch]

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