Archaeologists Say Artifact Looting A Problem In Wyoming

[Cannonman17]

Wow, I can't believe the level of disdain for Archaeologists here. I've worked with several different professional archaeologist here in Wisconsin and have never had anything but help from them. No asking where did you get that, no give me that or why don't you donate that. The first archaeologist I met was a professor at a University, he seen my collection and invited me to come to the campus to share what I had found with is classes. I have three friends that work as archaeologist, one of the three has a private collection and he takes a lot of grief from his peers for it, it's considered to be unethical to work in the field and collect. As far as all the looting out west- I don't know, I don't live there or see what's happening. I see one comment to the effect that if these sites are so important why aren't they out there, well, I don't think they are that well funded. There's probably a really bad ratio of archaeologist to sites maybe 1/5,000. I don't know, just my two cents worth- I love to collect artifacts as much as anybody, it's a passion but I still support the preservation of undisturbed sites. Surface collecting yes, salvage archaeology yes, bulldozing an undisturbed Hohokam site to get some pots...no. I don't know, what do you guys think?

 

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[tinpan]

very interesting imfo and people are people some good ,some bad and i reckon theres plenty for all. happy hunting

tinpan

 

[Jeffro]

Well, I do believe you may be right Cannonman, at least as far as Wisconsin goes. Got any good Spanish shipwrecks up there?

There isn't much drive to archeology in Wisconsin, there sure is in Florida. I would wager that if you were from there, and showed your collection, your chances of the same treatment would be slim to none. Now Wyoming, I dunno, not much there as well. Indian artifacts, etc.

Not meaning to be sarcastic above.... I just believe that greed is a powerful motivator and archies aren't exempt. Far from it.

Greenie- Here if you make a good find, you better keep your mouth shut. If you are lucky, you might be able to sell off a few pieces and recoup some of your losses from operating expenses without getting caught. If you open your mouth or if someone finds out, you will have your butt arrested, the site closed off, and spend years in courtrooms trying to keep what you spent years of your time and possibly millions of dollars trying to find. Thats if you do it the wrong way. If you try and do it the right way, it just costs more, but the results are the same.

In England the way it works is this- You make a find, you report it. If the museums and archies want it, they get first shot at it, rewarding the finder with the actual value of the piece. If they don't need it as they have some in their museums already, its yours, no problem. Sell it at auction if you want, keep it in your collection if you want.

Kind of makes the whole thing worthwhile for all parties, keeps the lawsuits and fighting down, too.

 

[Cannonman17]

Good points- There's no doubt in my mind at all that there are "professional" arechaeologist who have been consumed by greed and probably do their fair share of business on the black market, I just don't think that they are all like that or even the majority.

 

[Badger Bart]

" I can tell you one thing. Near my house they did a dig on GOV't property and left the place a mess! Broken bottles everywhere and a big hole. This event happened around 1999 and I could take a PIC of it and it still looks like crap!"

PLEASE TAKE SOME PICS AND WRITE DOWN ALL THE DETAILS YOU CAN AND SEND THEM TO ME OR POST THEM HERE. I WOULD LIKE TO LOOK INTO THIS FURTHER. THANKS.

 

[tammahawk]

Heres how I see it

heres how i see it, 1st off they are worried about missing relics hmmmm, let me think on this one, hmmmm, lets say ya stopped the crap about only an archeologist can dig legally, hmmmm 2nd off they admitt they are rarely out there hmmm what an assanign statement if your not out there and are not gonna be then hmmm how ya gonna find anything?,3rd maybee even these amatuers are help, your damn right they are, and with their own hard time and money something the Government knows nothing about ,unless its to rip off someone who put a lot a time money and effort in to find things, and we all know you aint finding squat with out doing your homework, which takes years, so apparently these lazy innept archelogist admit WE are the reason much has been found well well imagine that, I think about the only thing that should be changed is when something is found you must report it , it would stop all the nonsense and preserves what was found, but like england it should be bought at fair market value by uncle sam, whats so hard about that unless you are just screwing the treasure hunter, which is more of the case,hmmm let me see if the goal is really to keep and preserve history and it has a value to all ,then why not pay for someone to find it?, its value would only increase and they would make a profit even if they payed for it so its win win to me it sounds like, it all could be displayed and like a museum would take money to view the items another win win situation, so basically by the sounds of things they they forced anyone who enjoys the sport to be on the down low, which is Bullcrap, they admit, neither do they have the people or the time or resources, so how are they gonna find anything anywhere with out getting people out there and spending some money,so what they are telling the world is DONT TAKE ARTIFACTS THAT WE ARE UNABLE TO FIND BECAUSE WE HAVE NO MONEY OR PEOPLE WE CAN AFFORD TO FIND THIS, BUT WE DONT WANT SOMEONE ELSE TO FIND IT EITHER, so noone will find artifacts then and noone will benefit , not us not them noone, hmmm sounds like a buncha crap to me, they definatley need to wake up its the well read treasure hunters that are well educated that find this stuff, and let me clue them it aint guys taking archeologist courses either, does that make them less adequit?, I think not, because if the archeologists had the correct education this would be a breeze, right?, sounds like the more educated is the actual treasure hunter, heck i could go toe to toe with any archy on a site and leave him in the smoke, they havent a clue, so who is the more educated and more appropriate for the Job?,we all know its the treasure hunter, if the Government would wake the hell up and see that, this would be a better world, all we need to do to make this the greatest sport ever is adopt englands treasure hunting laws easy as that, finders keepers or at least ur payed by the crown for what you found at fair market value i think everyone of us could live with that deal,something to think about guys, be nice to have a senator in our pocket to help change things the way they should be, good luck all tammahawk

 

[grizzly bare]

People,people, please, aren't we looking at this the wrong way? I am 57 and now I demand that the government go to great lengths to protect me from the effects of erosion, sun and wind damage, illegal digs, rough pawing, and the list goes on. The Government has just given us oldsters a guarantee of protection, .

Jim Johnson
grizzly bare

 

[diggemall]

Grizz, I was thinking the same thing earlier today. I have no pension, no retirement plan, and danged little savings and was worried about old age until I realized ONCE I HIT 50 I AM A RELIC! SUBJECT TO PROTECTION UNDER THE ANTIQUITIES ACT ! How cool is THAT?!

The only down side I can think of is that I might end up spending eternity in some archive drawer in some museum basement....... But then again, that's cheaper than a plot in the local cemetary..........

Diggem'

 

[deepsix47]

Archaeologists: artifact looting a problem in Wyoming
By The Associated Press

CHEYENNE - Trafficking in illegal antiquities ranks alongside gun and drug trafficking in terms of profitability, and archaeologists say Wyoming's wealth of American Indian and frontier-era artifacts can make the state an antiquities gold mine.

"The thing about illegal activity on archaeological sites is so many of them are in remote, rural locations, it's hard to quantify what goes on out there because you're not out there a lot," said State Archaeologist Mark Miller.

Julie Francis, an archaeologist at the Wyoming Department of Transportation, said collectors provide a market for illegal antiquities and the Internet has worsened the problem.

In Wyoming, the problem includes surface collecting, theft or defacement of rock carvings, and even trade in human remains. Francis said two of her own sites in highway rights of way were looted at night.

Bottles and other artifacts of frontier life are also popular targets, she said.

At Fort Laramie National Historic Site, excavations by assistant state archaeologist Danny Walker in 2003 revealed a large looter hole in the site's historical trash dumps.

Walker said the culprit was likely looking for old bottles and had left behind a plastic-handled garden trowel. The trowel had little rust, leading Walker to suspect that the looting occurred within the previous 10 years.

In 2002, someone dug up World War I-era graves in Gebo, a town occupied from the 1890s to 1970s. Mike Bies, the archaeologist for the U.S. Bureau of Land Management's Worland Field Office, was worried someone might have been trying to get the skulls, although no bones were removed. Others have suggested that the grave robbers were looking for jewelry or possibly coins placed over the corpses' eyes.

Whatever the case, it was illegal. Collecting on public land is always illegal without a permit. And so is collecting on private land without permission from the landowner.

But collecting isn't entirely off-limits to amateurs. Archaeologists say that recreational collectors have helped the profession enormously.

"Many professional archaeologists got their start collecting arrowheads as kids," Francis said. "And there have been many, many positive relationships between professional archaeologists and avocational groups."

Reports from recreational groups to archaeologists, he said, have led to the discovery of many important sites. "Some people consider them the eyes and ears of the profession because they're out in the field more often than professionals," Miller said.

Professional looters, on the other hand, care only about one thing: profit. They know where the sites are; often they are well educated and may even have taken archaeology classes or volunteered on excavations, Francis said.

They also frequently have histories of alcohol or drug abuse and have been known to collect artifacts to fund their habits. Bies urged anyone who sees suspicious activity on public land not to approach suspected looters.

"In the Southwest, where they've caught looters, they're almost always found in possession of illegal firearms and drugs," Bies said. "So there's a very good chance that these are not the kind of people you want to talk to out in the country."

http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2006/07/17/news/wyoming/42-looting.txt

Thanx for this post. It made me smile. No, I'm going to behave myself again and stay out of it. I would like to direct a question however to all of the Museum employed Archeologists out there. When was the last time you went out and dug a Rock Shelter or any other site, without Grant Money, just for the fun of it? Oh, sorry, I do apologize. Rock Shelters are pretty small and are difficult to get Grant Money for. I guess they don't count. Have a super day!!!!

 

[rayredditch]

Treasur Hunters walk (OR run), and MONEY TALKS. That´s why big companies can build on archeological sites,<because they contribute to political campaign funds.

 

[Badger Bart]

WHILE THE FOLLOWING NEWS REPORT ISN'T ABOUT ARCHAEOLOGY, IT IS ABOUT A 'PROFESSIONAL', A 'TOP' SCIENTIST IN HIS FIELD. SO WHAT IS IT ALL ABOUT? sniff... I smell green I think.. tons of humor here too...

************************************************************
South Korean Scientist Denies Embezzling Research Funds

July 26, 2006 8:38AM

At a hearing earlier this month, disgraced scientist Hwang Woo-suk admitted to ordering subordinates to falsify stem cell data in a key 2005 paper, saying he told researchers to make it look like they were basing their results on 11 cloned embryonic stem cell lines, rather than the two lines he believed they had.

Disgraced scientist Hwang Woo-suk denied embezzling research funds and testified Tuesday that part of the money went toward failed attempts to clone mammoths, extinct relatives of today's elephants.
Hwang is on trial on charges of misappropriating funds, embezzlement and illegally purchasing human eggs for stem cell research. Five of his colleagues face the same charges. ( What's really odd is that these five guys look exactly like him, walk, talk, everything.) Prosecutors completed their first round of questioning on Tuesday.

"Not a single penny was spent for personal use," said Hwang, whose purported breakthroughs in creating stem cells from cloned human embryos unraveled in scandal last year.

The defendants' lawyers will begin their cross-examination at the next trial hearing in September.

Hwang also said he did not deceive donors who supported his stem cell research, insisting he did not realize his internationally heralded innovations were faked. (wow, he had no clue about anything, I could have done better than this guy)"I am also a victim who was deceived. I am the biggest victim," he said.

Hwang was indicted in May for allegedly accepting $2.1 million in private donations based on the outcome of the falsified research and embezzling about $850,000 in private and government research funds. If convicted, he faces at least three years in prison. ( see, when your a professional, you get minimal jail time, so I guess the sheepskin has some value after all. I'm buying mine tomorrow from diplomas dotcom, it might come in handy yet. Besides, I always wanted to be a professional.)Hwang said some of the money was used to clone mammoths, using tissues of the extinct animal obtained from glaciers.

"We tried three times, but failed all those times," he said, adding his team had also tried to clone tigers.

SomHwang admitted to using some of the funds not specifically as intended but said "all the money was used for the purpose of research." Some went toward housing for his researchers, gifts and tours for visiting foreign scholars and meals for government officials, he said. He also claimed his team had the technology to produce cloned stem cell lines, saying researchers have been creating non-human stem cells since last year.

"We made stem cells, although they are not human," Hwang said.

Hwang gained international fame for his research on stem cells and cloning after publishing landmark academic articles in 2004 and 2005. But the work was discredited last year amid revelations some data had been forged. (Forged? Is that like in faked? Lied? No, not a professional! They have rules, and guidelines, and laws, and systems in place to prevent abuse. Don't they?)

Once praised as a national hero, Hwang was fired from his job at the country's top school, Seoul National University, and the government is stripping him of his state honors.

His work had raised global hopes of new cures for untreatable diseases, using stem cells to grow replacement tissues for therapy that would not be rejected by patients.

At a hearing earlier this month, Hwang admitted to ordering subordinates to falsify stem cell data in a key 2005 paper, saying he told researchers to make it look like they were basing their results on 11 cloned embryonic stem cell lines, rather than the two lines he believed they had. (But he didn't know what was going on, remember?)
Even those two stem cell lines were later revealed to be fakes.

Still, Hwang said his fellow researchers shared the blame for the deception. (Oh tsk tsk, finger pointing... naughty boy, do it again and you wil geta spanking.)

Hwang's lawyer said last month that he plans to open a new lab and resume research. (Hey, there's money to be made in this racket, laws or not, I'm going for the brass ring, er, money) His prospects were unclear, however, because he is no longer authorized to conduct such research in South Korea. (Is that pathetic or what?)


© 2006 Associated Press/AP Online. All rights reserved.
© 2006 Sci-Tech Today. All rights reserved.

http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=12300CNR173I

 

[ferrouser]

Badger Bart, make sure your degree...

In whatever field you choose has the letters NDAA after your name.
"NO DEGREE AT ALL".
You are covered.

 

[Cannonman17]

Lots of collectors out there get irrate at the idea of an artifact spending it's life in a a drawer but have no problem with it in their drawer. Hmmm... once it's dug it gone forever. Everybody wants to loot artifacts under the idea that they aint gonna last forever anyways... many have been there for thousands of years, I don't think you need to save them. Now if it's on your land - go ahead and dig the hell out of it if you want, I don't think the government should have any say it what you do with your land. Sites on national land belong as much to me as they do to you so if you loot them because you don't want the artifacts sitting in their drawers then you better start sending some of the stuff my way!!

 

[Badger Bart]

There is a big difference between an artifact sitting in a museum drawer for 100 years vs being in a collectors drawer. NO ONE GETS TO SEE AND ENJOY IT WHEN IT IS IN A MUSEUM DRAWER. A collector is most likely not the first owner, and likely paid money for it, usually displays it, trades, sells, passes it on, etc. If it is only enjoyed by one collector, that is a whole lot better than it sitting in a museum drawer.

Here is an actual example of what happens when something of import comes into poseession of the state, archies, and' or museums.... The Milwaukee Public Museum in Milw. Wisconsin has some horse bones from an archy dig in Jefferson County WI. that were from a state dig about 100 yrs. ago at a Native American (Indian Mound. Although these bones were in and amongst all the other artifacts from the dig, they were declared 'anoalous', without any testing, examination, or further investigation. They are apparently still there, because when I located a major university who was willing to examine them with every modern test available two years ago, AT THE UNIVERSITYS EXPENSE, the museum diector denied the offer, stating he "did not want to stir the pot."

What he meant by that was that the professional dogma for the past 100+ years has been that there were no horses here after the last ice age until the Spanish brought them in the 1500's. Apparently this director is afraid he will lose his job if these particular horse bones are examined and the dogma is proven false.

This is not the only example of horse bones from an archy dig being declared anomalous, I know of others. What are they afraid of? They refuse to allow any horse bones to be examined. That isn't honesty, science, or any of the platitudes that are spouted for their position that ancient artifacts belong to the state for research and study, etc. Dishonesty and fear has no place in science, especially among these 'professionals', and it is not surprising that the disgust for them that some here have displayed, is apparently earned and deserved. This is only one of many, many examples of this sort.

 

[Jeffro]

Along those same lines lets not forget this lovely line- "Its of religeous signifigance"


If you hear an archaeologist utter these words, it means one of two things.

1. He has no clue

2. He knows damn well, but it violates what they "know" to be true already.

 

[Cannonman17]

My statements were not meant to be a personal attack on anybody so there's no need for the hostility. One of the great things about being an American is your right to have an opinion! Now, my statement on sending me your finds was OBVIOUSLY meant as a joke- I wouldn't expect you to send me your finds anymore than you would mine. 2) I'm not an Archaeologist 3) As far as the Antiquities act goes- if they can't afford to protect even a tiny fraction of the known sites on public land how will they ever manage to come for our arrowheads, wheat pennies, whatever-? The bottom line on what I was trying to say has been completely missed. I collect with the best of them- I metal detect, I hunt arrowheads, I buy, sell, and trade too. All I was saying was that I don't think it's right to go on to public lands and dig everything that you can! I would like to take my family this summer yet sometime to see Cahokia mounds, I think that it's great that some of it still remains today and that it hasn't been flattened by artifact hunters. I would someday like to go out west and see some of the pueblo ruins in much the same state of preservation that they are in today. I'm evil for this? I have 0 credibility with you because I feel this way? If that's the case I really couldn't care less what you think of me.

 

[ericwt]

TimRino:
I get it- I don't agree with someone and I am attacking him?

The finding a wheat cent was an example of how laws can be interpreted. Have you read the antiquites act? Specifically the revisions after 1997? I have. They can be interpreted many ways. I also clearly stated that in small cases it is usually not enforced

I have never been in trouble with the N.P.S, or any other agency. I have a clean record with no criminal convictions. But I do know people who have gotten trouble with archaeologist.

Arrowhead hunter are you? You do realize that some of those are considerably older than any coin I have found. Who is the real looter here?

Me a bad attitude? I see because I do not agree with you I have a bad attitude.

I have already stated I do not dig on national parks. Why would you accuse me of digging holes and leaving them? I only detect on private property Are you trying to attack me?

Your Prozac comment was priceless. I don't agree with you so you use personal attacks instead of stating reasons why you disagree with me. Attack the person- not the argument.

My long term goal is to be dug up by an archaeologist and spend eternity in his drawer.

ericwt

 

[Cannonman17]

Had to chuckle on that one! So what's it like to have your words taken out of context and used against you? Your wheat penny kind of like my send me your artifacts maybe?

Thanks much by the way for the "CLUE" that there are millions of C.W. bullets left in the ground, (I didn't know I had insinuated that there was a shortage!) Always nice to have some embellishments on one's words.

Now you say one should attack the argument and not the person right?

Cannonman17: It is obvious that you do not have a clue
You are so typical of a new breed of Americans who don't want to do the work
Sound like you have not done your homework
Perhaps you should look at the laws before you open you mouth. You have zero credibility with me

Bravo- I would have to say the above examples from your post are all excellent examples of attacking the argument rather than the person... why don't you practice what you preach?

 

[ericwt]

Cannonman17:
Your statement:

"Sites on national land belong as much to me as they do to you so if you loot them because you don't want the artifacts sitting in their drawers then you better start sending some of the stuff my way!!"

Is what brought my reaction. Out of context? Not even close.

The Civil war bullets were to illustrate a point. I never said you asked anything about it.

You still do not understand the laws.

I would be happy to go point by point with the laws with you.

A am sorry you were hurt by what I said. If you have not figured out this is a very big issue with treasure hunters.


ericwt

 

[ericwt]

TimRino: I think historical sites should be protected.

There is no question about that.

ericwt