It finally happened, Investigated for Detecting!

[cudamark]

I suppose if some people don't hunt public areas, they have nothing to lose if they're closed to metal detecting. I at least would like to keep the option open. Even though I've hunted just about every park in my area several (if not dozens) of times, they never seem to be hunted out. You return after a rain or a change in conditions, and/or bring a different machine, and place can come alive again. Just try to do it without drawing attention to yourself. Even if they had signs saying "Metal Detecting Welcome!", that doesn't mean you can do what you want, or, that someone couldn't complain for any number of unrelated reasons. I prefer to be the invisible man.

 

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[Deft Tones]

I suppose if some people don't hunt public areas, they have nothing to lose if they're closed to metal detecting. I at least would like to keep the option open. Even though I've hunted just about every park in my area several (if not dozens) of times, they never seem to be hunted out. You return after a rain or a change in conditions, and/or bring a different machine, and place can come alive again. Just try to do it without drawing attention to yourself. Even if they had signs saying "Metal Detecting Welcome!", that doesn't mean you can do what you want, or, that someone couldn't complain for any number of unrelated reasons. I prefer to be the invisible man.

Exactly. I'm not strictly a park hunter, although I do spend much time in them, I'd like the option to be open for the future.

Well, if they roll out the welcome mat, I certainly am entitled to do whatever I want within the law. Someone can always complain about anything...real or imagined. So what, hide?

I'll never feel shy about conducting legal activities anywhere.

Should I curtail my activities and times out of deference to another detectorist (whom I likely will never meet because they are too reclusive and shy) because they think out of sight out of mind is the key?

If everyone hides at odd hours, then it appears nobody will care about prohibitions except the two yahoos always out in the open. After all, only two peopke actually seem to be doing it, even if it's a shy guy leaving pock marks in the park at odd hours.

Am I wrong?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....I also was certain, and still am, that a Judge would consider any citation received as an incorrect application of the law. I suppose I'll never know for certain until I stand before one in defense.....

Let's say for sake of argument it had gone that route. Then sure, that's no fun. But I'm betting it would be dismissed in the cattle-call lineups for such silly little infractions. You'd wait your turn in with small-claims cases, parking tickets, jay-walkers, etc.... When your turn came, I bet the judge has BETTER AND BIGGER things on his list that "a guy metal detecting in the park" to deal with.

I heard of a guy in SF city that got a ticket. Although it was only a measily $100-ish (and almost not worth the time to fight), he decided to fight it. He waited his turn, and had his talking points ready. As his turn in the cattle-call lineup came, the judge was glancing down at the ticket paperwork. The md'r began his lines:

"Your honor, I don't know what all this is about. I was merely metal detecting for loose-change in the park. I read the rules ahead of time and see there's no prohibitions. I was doing no harm to the grass and even attempted to show the fellow this, and ...."

Before the fellow could even finish his 2nd sentence, the judge banged the gavel and said "dismissed". In less than a minute, it was all over. He was handed his paperwork and sent on his way. Several of his friends even got xerox copies of the rubber stamped "dismissed" ticket, just in case it ever came in handy deflecting a busy-body. But .... to this day, you can detect and remain unbothered there (so long as you're not being a major eye-sore , etc...)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Should I curtail my activities and times out of deference to another detectorist (whom I likely will never meet because they are too reclusive and shy) because they think out of sight out of mind is the key? .....

Although I'm as brazen as they come about this topic, yet I STILL do not flaunt my detecting "rights". I STILL pick discreet times, so as not to ruffle feathers, or spit in people's holy water. That's not to say I'm "hiding" or "sneaking" because I think it's "illegal". But it's just that I'm painfully aware that our hobby has admitted connotations. So why swat hornet's nests ?

 

[Deft Tones]

Let's say for sake of argument it had gone that route. Then sure, that's no fun. But I'm betting it would be dismissed in the cattle-call lineups for such silly little infractions. You'd wait your turn in with small-claims cases, parking tickets, jay-walkers, etc.... When your turn came, I bet the judge has BETTER AND BIGGER things on his list that "a guy metal detecting in the park" to deal with.

That's about what I expect to happen also...especially when dressed for success in a sharp tailored suit and tie.

I've heard it before, "The Court apologizes for waisting your time Mr. ______. Case dismissed!" BLAM!

 

[Deft Tones]

Although I'm as brazen as they come about this topic, yet I STILL do not flaunt my detecting "rights". I STILL pick discreet times, so as not to ruffle feathers, or spit in people's holy water. That's not to say I'm "hiding" or "sneaking" because I think it's "illegal". But it's just that I'm painfully aware that our hobby has admitted connotations. So why swat hornet's nests ?

Well, I'm not advocating bringing a relic shovel everywhere, in fact that park is the only, the only park that I carry equipment like that into. But this park is abandoned (revitilization in progress) and smack dab in the hood. Pitbulls run loose to give you a clue. It's real fun at night if you're the adventerous type, but you'd better bring some big boy pants and be prepared to hold em' up. No lights. Secluded. So serene...until it's not.

I hunt all day long multiple days each week. If I choose a day hunt at a park should I just stick to the woods and bushes when people are present? Then slink out when everyone leaves between 1:30pm -3:40pm? Kids out of school then, back to the woods I go...or go home?

My experience with hornets leads me to believe if you leave them be they will likely leave you be. But on occasion, if one is pestering you, swat it down before it is emboldened enough to cause harm.

Bzzzzzzzz! Love it.

 

[Deft Tones]

Why should it pain you that our hobby has connotations?

Gun ownership also has connotations.
As does being a Californian.
And almost everything else.

Substitute word connotations with the word stereotypes.

I personally am aware, recognize, and dismiss them.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Why should it pain you that our hobby has connotations? .... I personally am aware, recognize, and dismiss them....

Here's why it "pains" me: Because even though I agree with you that it's "too bad for them" (those that don't like it). Yet I'm also aware that they can make my life miserable. And get me shut out of places. Oh sure I can fight them like you did. But the bottom line is: I'm going to take the path of least resistance.

So what's easier: Getting the couple of kill-joys (a gardener or whomever ) to love and adore you ? Or simply to avoid them and ..... what they don't see won't hurt them ?

My goal is to metal detect as many cool old places as possible. So whatever net-results in that, is the path I will take

 

[Honest Samuel]

When having problems in local parks, speak to the park department director, not happy, talk to the police chief.

 

[Deft Tones]

Here's why it "pains" me: Because even though I agree with you that it's "too bad for them" (those that don't like it). Yet I'm also aware that they can make my life miserable. And get me shut out of places. Oh sure I can fight them like you did. But the bottom line is: I'm going to take the path of least resistance.

So what's easier: Getting the couple of kill-joys (a gardener or whomever ) to love and adore you ? Or simply to avoid them and ..... what they don't see won't hurt them ?

My goal is to metal detect as many cool old places as possible. So whatever net-results in that, is the path I will take

I can certainly respect your 'go with the flow' position. Truthfully, I'm much the same way towards most other subjects that I feel aren't important to me. I'm totally chill, and live and let live, until someone causes interference.

When I go hiking, I have to force myself to stay on the beaten path. I've always been that way.

I was thinking in the shower then over breakfast and coffee... just drawing parallels...

Do you think there is a generational adjustment occuring within the hobby, and that this transition from the old guard to the new guard is the cause of the division, or just a symptom?

In our struggle for acceptance by the public, do you think there are parallels between the sufferage, civil rights, and recently the gay rights movement? How well would these groups have done in advancing their rights had they taken the path of least resistance?

Just picking your brain, sir.

 

[kcm]

Actually, I think it's a matter of population density. As the population grows, it becomes increasingly difficult to enjoy many hobbies in this world without having passer-by's or onlookers - or people who just flat-out don't like what you're doing, for one reason or another. As with most things, it starts off unregulated. Then, people go out and do the hobby without respect or regard for others. Then EVERYONE in the hobby is blacklisted - unless they choose to stand up and fight back - respectfully and peaceably. That seems to be what makes America tick.

 

[Deft Tones]

Actually, I think it's a matter of population density..

That is correct. I had thought of that when thinking of the "Old Guard". Our pioneers and first generation of enthusiasts had to contend with half the population in those days.

My city has almost doubled in occupational land mass in the last 20 years alone. There is more than double the population now... at least that's how it seems.

But that's just seems a contributing factor in my estimation.

Great points, KCM!

 

[kcm]

U.S. Population by Decade

1800 5,308,483
1810 7,239,881
1820 9,638,453
1830 12,860,702
1840 17,063,353
1850 23,191,876
1860 31,443,321
1870 38,558,371
1880 50,189,209
1890 62,979,766
1900 76,212,168
1910 92,228,496
1920 106,021,537
1930 123,202,624
1940 142,164,569
1950 161,325,798
1960 189,323,175
1970 213,302,031
1980 236,542,199
1990 258,709,873
2000 291,421,906
NOW 323,950,259 The current population of the United States as of Sunday, June 5, 2016


323,950,259 / 5,308,483 = 61.025 times larger population now than in 1800
323,950,259 / 76,212,168 = 4.25 times larger population now than 1900
323,950,259 / 236,542,199 = 1.37 times larger population now than in 1980

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Do you think there is a generational adjustment occuring within the hobby, and that this transition from the old guard to the new guard is the cause of the division, or just a symptom?...

Excellent brain-picking Deft-Tones ! I've given this much thought myself as well over the years (since this is a "bee in my bonnet" doh!)

As someone who was there in the old generation (1970s, albeit only as a teenager just starting out): I distinctly recall when such talk was un-heard of. NONE OF US would have ever wondered about "is it legal?" or "can I?" etc... It would never have crossed our mind that there WAS any problem with any particular beach, or forest, or campground, etc... (such that you'd think you need to ask "can I metal detect here?").

OH SURE: We had the "presence of mind" not to be snooping around obvious historic sensitive monuments. And oh sure, you knew not to waltz through the middle of balls games and over beach blankets. But beyond that, it never crossed our mind @ federal vs state vs county vs city, etc....

But this all began to change in the early 1980s. I remember it SPECIFICALLY. This was still pre-internet era of course. It seemed to begin (from what I recall anyhow) with stories in the Treasure magazines. A few editorials talking about a CW guy who got hassled or ticketed in some faraway place. Or some state's park thinking of enacting a "no md'ing" law. So readers were encouraged to write to such & such congressman.

So for the first time, there was this eeery "coming to a location near you" sort of mentality. Or "you too can be arrested, so you better ask permission first, inquire of laws, etc...". Also about this time, the "codes of ethics" began to contain the sentence: "know and obey all laws". And also about this time the FMDAC was formed (1984). And ALL their periodicals contained "scary stories" from faraway places.

Hence I trace it back to the early 1980s. Us hunters before that never trifled ourselves with such worries prior to that. Or if we'd read such things: Would have dismissed it as someone else's issue from elsewhere. Having nothing to do with our own area.

But BECAUSE of such stories in the printed materials we received, and the new line in the code of ethics which some people interpretted to mean "go ask can I?" there was all-of-the-sudden multiple people showing up at various public entities "seeking clarifications and permissions". And then guess what happens ? They get "no's" where it had never been an issue before !

I saw this evolve first hand. So years later, in the era of the internet and lightening fast info exchange (where such "bad news travels fast"), it just grew exponentially. The more "dire stories" that get circulated, well guess what? That just adds MORE fuel to the fire, and sends all-the-more people scurrying to ask "just to be safe". Thus leading to all the more "no's" to these "pressing questions" that elicit "safe answers". It was like a self-fulfilling vicious loop cycle !

I began to wonder if what I'd seen on local small-time scales, wasn't/hadn't happened on larger state-wide or nationwide scales. So I read closely all such "no's", to trace back to their origins. Getting passed the "go to" pat answers of "holes" or "cultural heritage", to trace back to "what put it on someone's plate to BEGIN WITH as a matter they had to address?" Oh sure, some are indeed truly holes or archies that bumped into an md'r and "decided to make a law". But I truly believe that a host of others are SIMPLY because md'rs THEMSELVES go swatting hornet's nests. Too timid to do anything unless an express written red carpet isn't rolled out for them.

This is from the perspective of before and after. 40 yrs. now, and past president of a club. JMHO.

 

[kcm]

Tom, VERY well-written!! That is pretty much the exact cause for MANY of our modern "roadblocks" - not to mention bad laws that were made.

I don't know this, so is ONLY a guess, but I'd say that some of the laws out there were made while outdoor enthusiasts WERE outdoors, doing what they loved. So who did that leave inside making the laws? ....Anyone?

Correct - the ones that DON'T enjoy spending time outdoors - unless of course it's on a golf course or a tennis court - something more....."eloquent"? ..."exclusive"? Most paper-pushers can't understand the appeal of the outdoors.

 

[RustyGold]

Great job holding your ground, keeping a clear head and exercising your communication skills. Well done!

 

[Deft Tones]

I had no Idea the wealth of experience you posess. You were probably getting into detecting when I was getting out of diapers.

I wish we lived closer so that I could buy you a drink or 10, and we could bullxxxx about this hobby until the sun rises.

I'm going to chew on this for a bit....much to think and consider. Thank you, Sir.

I'll be back...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... You were probably getting into detecting when I was getting out of diapers....

ha, well I'm 55 now. Started in about 1976 taking my Whites 66TR to wherever my bicycle could pedal me to! By the time I got a driver's license, would borrow mom's station wagon and go to Monterey, CA (30 min. away). To where they already had a club going on since the mid '70s there. And our own city started our club in 1980. By the late '80s I was president of our club.

I used to pick the brains of the guys who, at that time, had already been detecting 10 or 15 yrs. Hearing the stories of them using BFO and early all-metal TRs, and hitting boy-scout camps that were virgin (filled a shoe-box full of silver!). And being the first to ever hit with a detector underneath the upside down carnival rides, snack-stand frontages, etc...

A lot of these guys are gone now. And those that remain are pushing 70 or over. By the time I got into detecting, TR discriminators were *just* then starting to push those of us with no disc. into the dinosaur age. And just about the time you got good with a TR disc, then BAM the motion discriminators take the world by storm.

So it's as if I got into this JUST at the tail-end of the old school world . There was even a guy still using a BFO in our club in those early days. And you know when you're a teenager "10 years is forever". And to talk to a guy who's 30, is to talk to "an old man", haha Yet those guys who started in the late '60s (a mere 10 yrs. before me) truly were the first ones to do it.

Because even though detectors can be said to date to the 1930s (or whatever), it really wasn't till the 1960s, that any detectors became capable of going for individual coins. Earlier detectors were only good for big stuff, and notoriously unstable. And simply hadn't "caught on yet". A few exceptions in CW geographics are known. But for vast areas, the first they ever saw of any detectors, wasn't really till the mid 1960s. Some areas didn't see detectors till the 1970s even.

 

[kcm]

So, while you were "just" getting into metal detecting, I was "just" getting into EAA (Experimental Aircraft Asso.). ...At least one of us stuck with it.

 

[Honest Samuel]

Tom, I am 74 years old. Can I call you Son. I started hitting the beaches in Connecticut in 1964. Good hunting and good luck.