It finally happened, Investigated for Detecting!

[Tom_in_CA]

Good story Kam50. But while there might not be a prohibition on md'ing city property there, I'll bet there's a muni code against "vandalism" or something like that. Yes I see you say you left no trace, no mess, no vandalism.

But as you can probably guess, it would boil down to a "he said she said" debate, as to whether or not your hobby left any mark, and whether or not that qualifies as "vandalism". I'm the first to agree that we DON'T alter, deface, destroy, and vandalize. Because yes, we can do it in such a way that leaves no trace when we're done. But to the casual observer, across the street, all they see is that you have a digger tool. And they have a mental connotation/image that "you might be about to leave a hole".

.... So like you guy's have said there is always someone with a attitude that wants to mess with you concerning detecting...

Yes: This is never 100% surmountable. EVEN GOING DOWN TO CITY HALL AHEAD OF TIME for their express permission doesn't solve this. Because you can get someone who gives you an arbitrary "no" (when truth be told, no one might have ever cared less in the field). Or you can get a "yes", only to have that over-turned in the field, by a griper who decides that you're "tearing the place up".

So the solution is like you say: Sometimes you have to develop a thick skin in this hobby. You MIGHT get a "scram" now and then. Oh well, so what ? I also do my best to avoid such lookie-lous in the first place (although it's not always 100% possible). Some people would call that "sneaking around". Ok, fine then: sneak around! haha

 

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[heepiepow]

First, big kudos to Deft Tones for standing his ground and being the reasonable one in that situation, backed by good argument and facts. And big kudos to you Tom for your diligence in informing all of us about rules of law (and the power that comes with knowing local and other laws ahead of time) concerning detecting, and as importantly--the negative results that may happen if we do certain things (like calling some harried clerk to ask about whether detecting is allowed in a certain area may result in a "no" just to get their call over with rather than based on any statute, etc.) Has really opened up my eyes and taught me good practice, not just with how to interact and ask/or-not permission, but also being diligent about filling holes and so on. Your advice is 100% pragmatic and positive and well thought out.

But:

Before the fellow could even finish his 2nd sentence, the judge banged the gavel and said "dismissed". In less than a minute, it was all over. He was handed his paperwork and sent on his way. Several of his friends even got xerox copies of the rubber stamped "dismissed" ticket, just in case it ever came in handy deflecting a busy-body. But .... to this day, you can detect and remain unbothered there (so long as you're not being a major eye-sore , etc...)

This can go both ways though. The only time I went to court was to dispute a ticket. To hopefully write a short synopsis:

On Christmas Eve of all nights I was pulled over right in front of my apartment and cited for not having auto insurance. (Showing the officer my current insurance card did nothing). My car was towed and impounded. The (not) funny thing is I've always had insurance. I'd moved from Virginia to Cali five years prior to that night and maintained my insurance throughout with zero lapses. But VIRGINIA put out some kind of alert that I was driving there without insurance! And it followed me here like I was some big-time no-insurance scofflaw! I'd never moved before and even stopped in at the DMV to ask if there was any kind of "I'm moving" form I had to fill out or thing they should update on their computers, they said no. Well maybe there should be if terribly dumb things like this happen.

Anyway I had to borrow money from my mom to make long distance-calls to Virginia DMV (to inquire wtf their mental problem was; more patiently stated/asked to them) and my former State Farm rep there and my landlords to send me faxes of my records, and had my utility bills and rent receipts and insurance records and pay stubs and tax returns here copied, which I was sure would make it so the ticket would be dismissed and I'd hopefully not have to pay the $400+ impounding fee. Since it was OBVIOUS I'd been living here and paying insurance on my car and Virginia's error should take a flying leap. I thought I'd actually be able to lay my case out, and was 100% sure the judge would agree that this was BS.

So after weeks of that prior to the appointed appearance, finally got up in front of the judge with my statement and papers ready and started to tell him the story and that I had papers proving I'd never been without insurance and was a Cali resident to show him. He didn't care about any of that, cut my statement off, stopped me from presenting the paperwork after that, and didn't dismiss the ticket, with no explanation. So $130 for the ticket + $400+ impoundment + faxes and long-distance calls. What a terrific Christmas that was. All for doing nothing wrong at all. Maybe I'll write a short story about this one day posing as Kafka.

So I guess to sum up, might depend entirely on the judge. Maybe some are in bad moods, or don't get that a few hundred bucks they see as no big deal IS a big deal to some people, etc. In my admittedly anecdotal experience of only one instance, my judge didn't give a **** about the law, or justice. Or even listening to people. Ironically this was in the Salinas court! Boo Salinas!

HH Tom and Deft!

 

[CASPER-2]

prob we have in some towns around here - golfers were practicing at parks and leaving divots and then blaming hunters - more and more signs are going up now on parks and some schools and police will inforce

 

[kcm]

@heepiepow - (instead of re-copying your entire post)

Sorry to hear about your bad experience with that judge. I know that judges do not allow recording devices in their courtrooms (at least in my case), but I did it anyway. This is one place where they will try to stick it to people making it impossible for you to go back on them if they do something wrong or stupid - like refusing to hear your case or admit your evidence. That is wrong, and you can go above their head if you have proof. Preferably, video would be better, but even then, judges also like to stick together...protect each other. It all depends on how steadfast you are with your personal convictions.

I once had a judge tell me to bring in evidence. I brought the evidence in, but then the judge wouldn't even consider looking at it. THAT is wrong! But then, there was a lot more wrong that time as well.

 

[cudamark]

To hopefully write a short synopsis:

On Christmas Eve of all nights I was pulled over right in front of my apartment and cited for not having auto insurance. (Showing the officer my current insurance card did nothing). My car was towed and impounded. The (not) funny thing is I've always had insurance. I'd moved from Virginia to Cali five years prior to that night and maintained my insurance throughout with zero lapses. But VIRGINIA put out some kind of alert that I was driving there without insurance! And it followed me here like I was some big-time no-insurance scofflaw! I'd never moved before and even stopped in at the DMV to ask if there was any kind of "I'm moving" form I had to fill out or thing they should update on their computers, they said no. Well maybe there should be if terribly dumb things like this happen.

Anyway I had to borrow money from my mom to make long distance-calls to Virginia DMV (to inquire wtf their mental problem was; more patiently stated/asked to them) and my former State Farm rep there and my landlords to send me faxes of my records, and had my utility bills and rent receipts and insurance records and pay stubs and tax returns here copied, which I was sure would make it so the ticket would be dismissed and I'd hopefully not have to pay the $400+ impounding fee. Since it was OBVIOUS I'd been living here and paying insurance on my car and Virginia's error should take a flying leap. I thought I'd actually be able to lay my case out, and was 100% sure the judge would agree that this was BS.

So after weeks of that prior to the appointed appearance, finally got up in front of the judge with my statement and papers ready and started to tell him the story and that I had papers proving I'd never been without insurance and was a Cali resident to show him. He didn't care about any of that, cut my statement off, stopped me from presenting the paperwork after that, and didn't dismiss the ticket, with no explanation. So $130 for the ticket + $400+ impoundment + faxes and long-distance calls. What a terrific Christmas that was. All for doing nothing wrong at all. Maybe I'll write a short story about this one day posing as Kafka.

So I guess to sum up, might depend entirely on the judge. Maybe some are in bad moods, or don't get that a few hundred bucks they see as no big deal IS a big deal to some people, etc. In my admittedly anecdotal experience of only one instance, my judge didn't give a **** about the law, or justice. Or even listening to people. Ironically this was in the Salinas court! Boo Salinas!

HH Tom and Deft![/QUOTE]
I think I would have appealed that one......

 

[Tom_in_CA]

heepiePOW, I don't even know where to start with, in commenting on your post. I mean, are you joking that that incident occurred in Salinas, CA, right ? I know that judges, cops, and courts aren't "perfect", but something seems to be amiss in your story. On the all, the USA system is generally fair, and even lax. For example MOST of the time, the public's lament is that criminals WALK FREE with little consequence. NOT the "other way around". Not saying fluke stories of someone getting "roughed up" for breaking no laws isn't possible, but .... your story seems way wrong.

But for sake of argument let's say it's exactly as you say: Then it just goes to show that you can dot your I's and cross your T's TILL THE COWS COME HOME and still have no 100% gaurantee that every last gardener, cop, griper, etc.... will "roll out red carpets for you".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Heepie-POW: As for your post's opening lines: thanx for the kind comments! All I can add is: Even though I put those notions out there, I always still try to stress that it doesn't mean we are 100% guaranteed to never get asked Q's or griped at. Or that this means we can "waltz over beach blankets during ball-games with impunity", etc..

But just trying to stress: Don't go into city halls grovelling with silly questions that no one ever cared about before. You summed that part up nicely. thanx!

 

[kcm]

I read heepiepow's post again and am not certain where ya'll are getting riled up about. He(?) claimed to have moved 5 years prior to this incident, moving from Virginia to California. He claims that he never let his auto insurance lapse at any time during then. However, his insurance company(?) was able to put the word out that he did NOT have insurance. Therefore, I can't help but wonder if heepiepow is the victim of circumstance.

IF I have this correct, and IF this is the first time heepiepow has ever moved, and IF his insurance company claimed that he had no insurance, ....I think there might be an answer in there somewhere. First of all, insurance deductibles vary from place to place. I could be wrong, but I'd bet money (tho I have none) that the deductable's are much higher in California than in Virginia. Now, if heepiepow never officially told his insurance company he was moving, OR if the insurance company never acted on such knowledge, then it's entirely possible that the insurance company could come back later and claim that he did NOT have insurance in California, "AS A CALIFORNIA RESIDENT". If he would have still been a VA resident but visiting in CA, then yes. But if the premiums were more in CA, then the insurance company could refuse to cover.

...Does that make any sense?

Insurance companies are more than happy to take your money. But it's getting more and more difficult for many claims to be settled. We've had a fairly recent run-in with insurance over an auto accident. Our vehicle was totaled. They paid for the vehicle, but the contents that were on the trailer fell under the homeowner's policy. They have twisted things around so horribly that we finally just had to stop trying to get reimbursement. Fortunately, much of the personal property was salvageable. It just wasn't worth the headache of trying to fight their corrupt STATE FARM system! Insurance companies used to be fairly good and decent. More and more, that is changing. ...And no, I don't think it's any one thing. I think it's due to MANY different variables.

 

[heepiepow]

Well I had State Farm in Virginia for about 8 years, then just walked into a local State Farm office here and continued it, immediately after arriving. Never missed a payment. Can't remember if there was any rate change. It is possible I didn't phone Virginia State Farm and tell them I moved and now have California State Farm. Might've figured since they're the same company that was unnecessary. Or that the California State Farm should be the one to alert their own company of my new location.

Anyway I think the alert came from the Virginia DMV, not State Farm (who didn't help me out much during this).

Oh Tom--you're right, I had to go to Marina I think, not Salinas.

Anyway I legitimately have never driven a car without insurance, and had plenty of proof of that, and the judge didn't care at all. From start to finish I was probably before him less than five minutes. It was very crowded; maybe that contributed to his lack of caring.

 

[heepiepow]

And thanks y'all for the replies. My story indeed seems kind of weird and nonsensical, which is what I also thought at the time and why I bothered to go to court at all instead of just paying the fine. Plus I thought the judge might also see it as so wrong he'd vacate or recoup me for the impounding charges.

And like misremembering Marina as Salinas my memory is indeed kind of bad*, but my memory of the basic weirdness of the situation is correct. Pulled over on Christmas Eve, having never driven without insurance, with my insurance card handy, and my car towed and a ticket given for driving without insurance. And the judge declined to dismiss that ticket even though I tried to tell him and had plenty of proof I had insurance. That is an ironclad fact and by any basic standards of logic and justice, I was screwed. Even if some fault was mine (such as if I hadn't notified my VA State Farm rep I was moving), the ticket was still unjustified and had no legal basis. If my tale seems fishy, reality is even moreso lol!

*btw benefits of a bad memory: old movies and books can be fresh again, since I've forgotten the plot/endings! Also video games since I've forgotten the same plus a lot of other interactive stuff. Also detecting--looking at my little find shrine--"oh I'd forgotten that one, so cool!"

 

[kcm]

*btw benefits of a bad memory: old movies and books can be fresh again, since I've forgotten the plot/endings!

Amen to that!

 

[cudamark]

What was the reason they pulled you over in the first place? The police wouldn't have known about any insurance you had or didn't have until they had you stopped and interrogated.

 

[Nate53]

Good Job Deft Tones. However, I would suggest that you quietly attend the next city council meeting, and be well prepared to defend the hobby from a motion to amend the code to further restrict your activity. This incident may not be over. Good luck.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Good Job Deft Tones. However, I would suggest that you quietly attend the next city council meeting, and be well prepared to defend the hobby from a motion to amend the code to further restrict your activity. ....

Nate53: You do realize, that the same caution you are saying, could also be said, if deft-tones had merely tucked his tail and went away wimpering. Right ?

I've even heard of what you are warning about, happening merely because someone went and asked at city hall "can I metal detect?" Guess what turned up on the next city hall proposed rules agenda?

So the thing you caution about, does not only occur when someone A) helps themselves, or B) stands his ground in the field.

 

[kcm]

Tom in CA: You do realize that the more that people sit by and refuse to get involved, the more rights and Freedoms get taken away. Right?

I've even heard of elected officials (even in the highest seats of office! ) that are more than willing to take away our Freedoms, even though it's "The People" that put them there.

....Sorry Tom, couldn't resist the opportunity.

 

[Nate53]

I didn't suggest that he go to the meeting and open a can of worms. My post said "quietly". That means sit at the back and do and say nothing unless the wiseguy that started all this crap has gone to a council member or shows up himself to make trouble. Happens all the time. I have served on such boards and commisions etc. I guarantee you I would be at the next few meetings.

 

[heepiepow]

I was driving around 15 mph on a 20 mph street pulling into the driveway under my balcony apartment, with no broken tail-lights for instance. And no other reasons were given for the stop. Immediate citation from the cop for just that lack of Virginia insurance thing/apparent crime. Zero interrogation, other than my baffled interrogation of the cop who said I was being cited for no insurance despite showing him my State Farm card and telling him I'd lived here for years. He ignored that, so did the judge. They more trusted some Virginia declaration than facts. You can believe whatever you want. Maybe I was a meth-head tossing pipes out, or had just robbed a bank!

The reason they pulled me over was because Virginia issued a BS no-insurance warrant or info or automatic computer thing to all cops including my
local ones... they then looked up my local license plate number, and they stopped me and impounded my car and ignored everything else, including my wealth of evidence that duh, I've never driven without insurance. Believe it or not, some cops and judges are awful.

P.S. you might enjoy this, which happened in my same county (not that I'm at all comparing that with my situation, but just as an example of corruption and injustice, revolving around cars and impoundment):

https://www.rt.com/usa/king-city-police-cars-047/

According to the Monterey County district attorney, for at least three-and-a-half years the city's top police officers participated in a scheme that took advantage of poor area Hispanics by essentially stealing their cars for profit.
Investigators say King City police ordered hundreds of vehicles to be impounded — most often those driven by Hispanic immigrants — and then either kept the cars for themselves or re-sold them for profit.

Automobiles scheduled to be impounded in King City are supposed to be handled on a rotating basis by one of four local towing companies. According to the complaint unveiled on Tuesday, however, Sgt. Bobby Javier Carrillo sent 87 percent of 200 vehicles impounded between March 2010 and last November to a company owned by Brian Miller — the brother of acting Police Chief Bruce Miller.

eta: update for anyone interested in that case:

http://www.ksbw.com/news/exking-city-sgt-carrillo-pleads-no-contest-to-bribery/38327996

 

[Honest Samuel]

kcm, do not take orders or insults from anybody except your boss, which would be your wife. Happy wife, happy life.

 

[kcm]

Not much "boss"ing goes on around here. Is mostly giving...on both sides. She gives me a slap, I give her a wooden snake in bed, she gives me bedtime with no dinner, I give in! LOL

Seriously, no bossing happens here. Am happy to have such an "abnormal" marriage!

 

[bottlebum]

Lucky for me, I'm so good looking that no one even notices that I'm swinging a detector. Have yet to have a problem ... ever. Well .... except for the dang cameras flashing all of the time. Does get kind of annoying. But hey, I have to keep my fans happy!