Metal Detecting on Federal Land

[Clay Diggins]

Oh, it's a high visibility spot, right next to a major roadway. Just to clarify, the location is in a National Recreation Area and according to Wikipedia, it's under the jurisdiction of the National Forestry Service.

I think you mean U.S. Forest Service? There is no National Forestry Service in the U.S.

Several people a year are fined or arrested for possessing a working metal detector in a National Recreation Area. Keep the detector locked in your trunk with no batteries and you should be alright in the NRAs and National Parks/Seashores.

 

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[mh9162013]

I think you mean U.S. Forest Service? There is no National Forestry Service in the U.S.

Several people a year are fined or arrested for possessing a working metal detector in a National Recreation Area. Keep the detector locked in your trunk with no batteries and you should be alright in the NRAs and National Parks/Seashores.

Yes, the US Forest Service, my bad. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

There has never been a debate Tom. The law has always said 100 years. I provided you with a link (again) to the antiquities act itself.....

Clay, as you well know, I'm as BRAZEN as they come. I am NOT "skittish" in the slightest. So you can BET I would most-assuredly go with the 100 yrs. , since, of course .... it grants us md'rs more "outs" if someone ever accosted you/me.

And I don't disagree with the 100 yrs. The reason I say "50", is because that's what gets bandied around all the time, by various fed. land people (archies, etc...) THEMSELVES. Here's an example : https://www.nps.gov/Archeology/npsGuide/permits/managers.htm

Another example: I was detecting NFS land campground years ago, and a ranger pulled up on me. He rolled down his window and said "you can't be doing that here". As we chatted, he then changed his tune and said "Well, you can, but if you find any coins older than 50 yrs. old, you have to turn them in at the ranger station". And he drove off, and I continued md'ing.

I'm sure I could say "He's wrong, and the cutoff date is 100 yrs." Sure ! And perhaps you're right that he is wrong. Sure. But all I'm saying is: The "50" keeps getting bandied about.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I think you mean U.S. Forest Service? There is no National Forestry Service in the U.S.

Several people a year are fined or arrested for possessing a working metal detector in a National Recreation Area. Keep the detector locked in your trunk with no batteries and you should be alright in the NRAs and National Parks/Seashores.

Clay: Is the US Forest Service the same as the National Recreation Area ? I would have thought that USF is like NFS. In which case, there's not an express disallowance of md'ing . In fact, there's even an express allowance.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Aaahhh, USF and NFS is the same thing : https://www.fs.fed.us/land/staff/

Therefore not disallowed. In-so-far as you stay within the cultural heritage mandates of ARPA. Ok, fine, just don't find coins older than 100 yrs. old

 

[mh9162013]

"So you're saying there's a chance!"

Edit: So the National Recreation Area's website does say possession or use of a metal detector is prohibited (not surprised). Guess it's back to having the hope the family connection will provide some sort of exception.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Clay: Is the US Forest Service the same as the National Recreation Area ? I would have thought that USF is like NFS. In which case, there's not an express disallowance of md'ing . In fact, there's even an express allowance.

Every National Recreation Area (NRA) is managed by one of the existing agencies. An NRA is a land status designation - not a land management agency. If the land was managed by BLM when it was designated a National Recreation Area the BLM will usually remain the manager of the new NRA. Same thing with Forest Service, National Park Service, Fish and Wildlife etc. Some NRAs have dual managers.

All NRAs and all but two National Parks are off limits to metal detector possession or use no matter which agency manages them.

All of these management agencies have several different classifications and regulations on their managed lands. Wilderness and NRAs as well as primitive areas and several other land class designations are managed by the Forest Service. Some can be detected while others can not.

There is no "express allowance" for metal detecting on Forest lands just because they are managed by the Forest Service. The vast majority of the eastern States "National Forests" can not be legally detected even though the Forest Service manages the land. If National Forest lands (or any public domain lands) are open to mineral location they can be detected for the purpose of mineral discovery, exploration or mining. I think the Forest Service regulations are clear on that point.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... I think the Forest Service regulations are clear on that point.

Yes, they are. Here you go. The express allowance : http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5261774.pdf

And yes I'm aware that parts of the east coast NFS is different. Although you'll notice that the link here makes no distinction. So if it were ME, I'd not hesitate to hunt NFS no matter which coast I was on (assuming, of course, not tromping on an obvious sensitive monument, or crashing an archie -convention). And if accosted, would pull out this text. They're welcome to appraise me differently, since I'd acted in good faith, with this express allowance.

Here's the bottom line: There's not a speck of public land, in the entire USA, of ANY jurisdiction or type (state, city, fed, or county), that .... if you looked long enough and hard enough, and asked enough bureaucrats and archies , that you can't find something that precludes you/me. Even the most tamest city park sand box, I bet I can find something in muni-code that could be construed to result in "no md'ing".

 

[Clay Diggins]

Yes, they are. Here you go. The express allowance : http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5261774.pdf

And yes I'm aware that parts of the east coast NFS is different. Although you'll notice that the link here makes no distinction. So if it were ME, I'd not hesitate to hunt NFS no matter which coast I was on (assuming, of course, not tromping on an obvious sensitive monument, or crashing an archie -convention). And if accosted, would pull out this text. They're welcome to appraise me differently, since I'd acted in good faith, with this express allowance.

Here's the bottom line: There's not a speck of public land, in the entire USA, of ANY jurisdiction or type (state, city, fed, or county), that .... if you looked long enough and hard enough, and asked enough bureaucrats and archies , that you can't find something that precludes you/me. Even the most tamest city park sand box, I bet I can find something in muni-code that could be construed to result in "no md'ing".

That's a local handout from 2009 Tom. It is not a regulation which by law would be published in the Federal Register and incorporated into the Code of Federal Regulations Title 36. (Its not in there)

It's not even a Directive or Guidance. A Directive is the only approved form for issuing forest wide policies.

Forest Service Directive System issuances are published under delegated authority as follows:

(1) The Forest Service Manual and Forest Service Handbook issuances to all Forest Service units are published by the Office of the Chief.

If you really believe the Forest Service has a policy about metal detecting other than for locatable minerals you will find it in their list of Directives. (It's not in there)

Hand outs are not law or regulation, can not be enforced by a court and are not official documents. If you continue to rely on whatever a guy named Mike Doran* typed up in 2009 you are really the guy who kept looking for permission until someone (who knows who?) finally said yes. Kind of ironic considering your campaign to convince other people not to ask permission to metal detect.

I'm off to try out some new coils on the public lands. I have confidence I'm OK to do that because I'm prospecting for valuable minerals which are exempt from regulations regarding metal detecting and ARPA.

*(Mike Doran is now retired from the Forest Service and as an economic geologist has his own small business selling private mineral property evaluations. I'm sure Mike is a nice guy but he was never in a position to establish Forest Service policy regarding metal detecting. Mike was a federal mineral examiner.)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Clay, We had this discussion several years ago. And I respect your input.

Curious why you think that ....... having bumped into a ranger at NSF (25-ish yrs. ago), that he told me I could detect, as long as I turn in coins that are older than 50 yrs. old. I suppose you'd say that he's mistaken, just like the link I provided ? Eh ?

I was not the one that "went looking for" those answers. Because you're right, I don't swat hornet's nests.

How about we can agree on this: If an md'rs is cotton-picking-out-in the middle of nowhere, on NSF, when there's not a soul around to care or gripe ......... then isn't this all a moot point ? And if it were true, that Navy-commando-seal archies lurked behind a tree, waiting to accost md'rs, that ...... if you showed them this , I bet you'd get a scram (and perhaps told, as you say "this doesn't apply anymore, blah blah).

If you can point to ANYONE who's gotten something like an arrest or confiscation, on NFS land, my hunch is that they were night-sneaking around obvious historic sensitive monuments. Or someone being obnoxious who can't take a warning, etc......

 

[Tiredman]

In the old days folks had balls and hunted. I remember posting about my night hunts on here years ago.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

In the old days folks had balls and hunted.....

Ssshheesskk, I don't even think it was a question of "balls". I just think that it never EVEN OCCURRED to us, to worry about such things. When we went to hunt the beach, or a park, or a school, or a forest, no one ever fretted "oh me oh my, is it allowed?" If anyone had said such a question out loud to the others-of-us, we would have looked at him with confusion. Ie.: It would never have occurred to us, that anything might be amiss, IN THE FIRST PLACE. And lo & behold NO ONE EVER CARED .

Oh sure, we had the "presence of mind" mind to not go waltzing through the middle of ball games or archie conventions. And sure, we had the presence of mind not to be in the middle-of-holes in nice turf when busy-bodies were watching. But beyond that, it didn't occur to any of us that you "needed permission" or that you should knock-yourself-silly looking for if there "might-be-a-law".

So what changed ? Why are things so seemingly different now, 40-ish yrs. later ?? Answer: It's the shark-attack psychology : The moment ANY "scary stories" ever hit the headlines (no matter how far away, no matter how much they were a fluke, no matter how rare), is the moment that everyone else wonders: "Gee, what about my area ? Maybe I should check to be sure?". And presto: The self-fulfilling vicious circle starts. Leading to more "no's". Which leads to more news. Which leads to more asking. Which leads to more no's. And so forth.

And then the old-timers , like us, look around thinking . Since when ? Says who ? Just go. Which, of course, sounds lawless and careless. Right ? And so what's the best way to put the confusion (on whether "allowed or not" ) to rest ? Simple: Just go ask. Are you beginning to see the vicious loop ?

 

[Tiredman]

At night I never found anyone to ask, which ended the vicious loop.

 

[Tiredman]

Besides the thread is about Federal Land, not school yards Tom. Padres Island is a good one, years back someone on here announced they were going to go there and hunt it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Besides the thread is about Federal Land, ....

Even on "federal land", no one back-in-the-day wondered: "Is it allowed?". It never occurred to any of us that we SHOULD worry.

In fact, humorously, I recall , that in 1980, a friend of mine was detecting at Pinnacles National Monument (at some 1930's campgrounds there) . That's an NPS park. A ranger came out and started spouting at him. My friend ......... who was not one to back down ....... challenged the guy to: "Show me any such rule". The ranger stormed off. Came back 10 minutes later with some papers in his hand, and proceeded to show them to my friend.

The best my friend could make of the wording, that he was being shown, was something about Indian stuff. So he told the guy "that doesn't apply to me, since the Indians had no refined metals". As it turns out, he was about to call it a day anyhow, so he told the ranger: " I'm leaving now, but I'll be back tomorrow at noon. And I have every intention of md'ing again. If you think it's not allowed, you're welcome to come try to kick me out".

The next day at noon, he resumed md'ing. No one ever came out and said anything to him.

Now ...... in retrospect (nearly 40 yrs. later) I realize what the ranger was probably showing him, was the 1979 version (which .... in 1980, was still "hot off the press) version of ARPA. And in retrospect, my friend was probably in the wrong to be on NPS (as we all know so well now). But the reason I point out the story is to illustrate how it was a BIZARRE CONCEPT to get a "scram" . From a fairly innocuous mundane public campground. Such that ...... we simply didn't believe anyone that said "you can't be doing that". And rarely did we ever get any "scrams" .

See how times have changed ?

 

[hardballer]

Thanks for the good info once again Clay Diggins!

 

[Johnnybravo300]

.....something about in California the law states your detector must be locked in a case out of arms reach and the batteries have to be in the trunk. Something like that.....gotta register it?
Maybe it was the large capacity coils were banned for awhile? I never can keep up with that stuff.

 

[mh9162013]

.....something about in California the law states your detector must be locked in a case out of arms reach and the batteries have to be in the trunk. Something like that.....gotta register it?
Maybe it was the large capacity coils were banned for awhile? I never can keep up with that stuff.

Don't forget the rule about having a past criminal conviction involving the theft of coins, historical artifacts or jewelry. That's an automatic bar to metal detector ownership.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....something about in California the law states your detector must be locked in a case out of arms reach and the batteries have to be in the trunk. Something like that.....gotta register it?
Maybe it was the large capacity coils were banned for awhile? I never can keep up with that stuff.

Huh ? This is meant to be a funny joke, right ? Otherwise, I have no idea what you are referring to

 

[RVRoamer73]

There are always a few bad apples spoiling things. IMO the reason the feds have clamped down so hard is not because of a few little filled holes on public lands, it because the bad apples spoiled it by using big time digging techniques, leaving huge messes and broken down earth moving machinery down in the hollows...a joke, but that's what they're worried about. Some people WILL take it to the limits. A Shame.