Jesse James Treasures: Do They Likely Still Exist?

[Rebel - KGC]

Where did it say he was buried Face Down?

At the 1978 exhumation the skull was Face Up.

The casket although Severely Deteriorated was that Old kind that had a Glass Window in the lid above the face. Really Not Much left at all. The curious thing about that though was there was a slug in there that was NOT Damaged. Like it never hit anything hard such as Bone. I found that odd with a supposed Almost Point Blank HEAD SHOT! Like an afterthought to toss a Slug/Ball in the casket. There were fabric pieces but this Grave/Casket/Body was in REALLY BAD SHAPE.

Think on this, tho; IF... "JJ" was shot in the back of the head (brain stem "area"), wouldn't the bullet come out the face or head...? "Death pic" shows NO front damage...

 

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[Rebel - KGC]

ANYWAY, I think MOST, if not ALL "Mason Jar-Road Banks" of GOLD/SILVER coins have been found or "used up".

 

[Rebel - KGC]

D... YOU ARE SPOT ON I THINK! I've looked and can FIND NOTHING SUGGESTING JJ. I think I got it in my head when Reb posted a reference only to JFD....I thought somewhere it was documented that JWJ had that. If it is I can't find it.

**I did find though that JWJ lost half of his middle finger as a young teenager cleaning his Loaded Gun.

JFD was missing just the tip.

I'm Not sure Bigelow Ever Existed in reference to JWJ.. More Ramblings from JFD...

You were exactly right to say go to JFD FIRST instead of JWJ!

Was JJ left-handed...? There is a "pic" of him holding his pistol in his LEFT hand...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Not sure where the statement is coming from that it was ever found face down, except innuendo from assorted stories. I was referring to the original exhumation in 1902, where it was removed to the cemetery. If the body was face up in the 1978 exhumation, then the rumors must originate with the 1995 exhumation, I'm assuming of course. I would also assume that by that late date, how could it even be determined HOW the body was facing, with that much deterioration.

Gruesome as it is, the bullet you mention is indeed an oddity. Especially in view of the original autopsy official who stated he removed the bullet from his brain where it had allegedly lodged. Then you have statements from the James family farm pointing to a hole in the wall from where the bullet allegedly exited. It's my understanding there was no exit wound on the body. Another oddity is the reports that the bullet found with the body was a different caliber from the weapon allegedly used by Ford. Lots of alleged here, lol.

NOT "found" face-down... BURIED in 1882 face-down; that body could have been CB or even JMJ...

 

[Ditlihi]

NOT "found" face-down... BURIED in 1882 face-down; that body could have been CB or even JMJ...

And where does that story originate, that he was buried that way?

 

[Ditlihi]

Nah, CB wasn't a cousin... I think that there WAS a "pic" of CB, will look.

Most of the info on CB came from "Jesse" Frank Dalton... AND! There is a web-site on CB... "google" Re: Charlie Bigalow. Then... Eyes on Texas: The Truth about Jesse James. HH! Good Luck! Bigalow is mentioned on several "sites"... NO CB "pics", tho. He was one of JJ's Gang members, so a "Group Pic" may help.

Thanks, Reb! I had pretty much arrived at that same conclusion, JFD's handiworks again.

 

[Kace]

Not sure where the statement is coming from that it was ever found face down, except innuendo from assorted stories. I was referring to the original exhumation in 1902, where it was removed to the cemetery. If the body was face up in the 1978 exhumation, then the rumors must originate with the 1995 exhumation, I'm assuming of course. I would also assume that by that late date, how could it even be determined HOW the body was facing, with that much deterioration.

Gruesome as it is, the bullet you mention is indeed an oddity. Especially in view of the original autopsy official who stated he removed the bullet from his brain where it had allegedly lodged. Then you have statements from the James family farm pointing to a hole in the wall from where the bullet allegedly exited. It's my understanding there was no exit wound on the body. Another oddity is the reports that the bullet found with the body was a different caliber from the weapon allegedly used by Ford. Lots of alleged here, lol.

*EXACTLY!

"WHOEVER" was killed on Lafayette St, St Joseph,MO in 1882, exhumed and re buried in 1902 in Kearney...Even without embalming... Depending on Depth,Soil, Drainage etc...In a 20yr time span could have been in decent condition.
Im Not Talking about Flesh, Tendons, Muscle or Organs...Unless the Body was Salt Treated which it wasn't. I'm not going to mention Mummification because Very Doubtful anyone knew how and even if they did, the body was buried too soon.

In 1978, IN MY OPINION, That was the Original Casket, or at least one from that time period. If anyone is squeamish don't read this....

BODY:1978- The Larger Bones were Not Attached to each other, and deteriorating, the smaller bones found in the neck, hands, feet and even the forearms were pretty much gone. The smaller bones looked like Dirt Covered Twigs. The skull was deteriorating too but definitely was Face Up. Some of The teeth had fillings I think...I say fillings because some of the teeth looked like gold or silver with dirt on it and Some of the Teeth just looked like teeth that have been in the dirt. I didn't hold anything so that was my 16yr old comparison from MDing Vs. Finding Animal Teeth While Hunting. Far from Scientific.

CASKET:1978- You could tell that originally it had the Window Pane in the Facial area. The Bottom was nothing but soft looking splinters. The casket itself...wouldn't have been worth the trip to use as kindling if it was just wood in a yard.

FABRIC:1978--Those type of caskets from the late 1800's-early 1900 sometimes had a fabric kind of liner on the sides and bottom. Sometimes the body was wrapped in a sheet. I'm assuming Cotton. During the exhumation there were very small bits of fabric...I couldn't tell the color as everything was covered in dark dirt. CLAY COUNTY, MO...Does Not Mean Everything Is Clay! lol.

SLUG:1978-It was Not Damaged (or Shiney) due to dirt or original color I suppose.

BULLET HOLE:St Joseph,MO Home on Lafayette St,--There Is No Way That Could Of Been The ONLY Shot Fired That Day. Anyone who has seen your run of the mill bullet hole in a wall or car knows that either...A) IT MISSED THE TARGET or B) IT WENT THROUGH SOMETHING SOFT. It's Not going to Penetrate The Front And Back of a Skull and come out like that. That either Had to Of Been Staged, Already There, Or a Missed Shot. My guess is it was just another way to make .50¢ as a tourist attraction...Showing the JJ KILL SHOT. It's still there. Next time Im up there I'll go get some good detailed photos. So you guys can decide.

*St Joseph Home: Most Homes of that era and location either had Plaster Walls, with the wood slats behind the plaster (Very Hard Stuff---Don't Ever Hit One) or they were just wooden slat walls with Newspaper or Wallpaper over them. IF the Bullet Hole Wall Was Plaster The Impact of His Head Hitting It Would Without A Doubt have Broken His Nose or Cheekbone or at the Very least Cut His Face Somewhere. IF it was Just Wooden Slats the Force of the Bullet Impact would have Broken the wooden slats and Cut Him.

**IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH DONT READ NEXT PARAGRAPH**

When Your Heart STOPS beating...You do not bruise deeply, there is not blood pumping. Also when your heart stops so does bleeding out. Meaning that blood will not PUMP out. Lividity (BLOOD SETTLING WHERE IT IS) sets in and the blood settles in the lowest part of the body position. Take a look at any death photo of someone before embalming. If they died in bed, on their back, rigor comes and goes, you will see Lividity at the sides and back of their arms, legs, neck etc... Blood drains from the face. It stretches the skin from pooling at the lowest point. I posted that for reference on Casket Photos.

ME:1978- I was 16yrs old. I had gotten a....(DONT TELL FRANK). KODAK 110 camera for my birthday that year. Anyone who remembers the 110's knows that they did Not take good photos. Square, Color Pictures is what you got back after having the film developed. No Adjustments...Point and Push the Button. I'll see if I have any pictures from that day. They won't tell anything really I doubt, but I'll look. I collect cameras so I still have that one! lol!

You are right with the Allegedly... What about a Key like

A-Allegedly
D-Documented
F-Fact
L-Lore

Etc.....?

Something Easy.

 

[Kace]

Was JJ left-handed...? There is a "pic" of him holding his pistol in his LEFT hand...

I don't think he was Left Handed. His Holster was Right Side. I'll see if I can find something else that shows a tell. A couple letters that have surfaced and have been documented do not have any smudging/creasing from dragging your arm across paper and they do not look like a lefty. I'll try and find those and post them.

Could the Photo you saw have been reversed maybe? IDK? Post it if you can.

I picked up one of my revolvers and keeping my middle finger from going all the way around the grip it's pretty hard. I didn't fire a shot and I've never practiced like that though. Possible to adapt to any loss of limb.

 

[Kace]

Not likely to the question. But, keep looking.

What Question Sam?...There are several going on? Did you have an answer,question or theory to the question you are talking about?

Jump In Here with thoughts, speculation or documented stuff!!!

 

[Kace]

"D", I think you are correct; it was a J. Frank "Jesse" Dalton "feet burn marks"/neck "rope burns" (IMHO). CB MAY have been "JJ" as murdered in 1882, dunno. Hence, why he was buried "face down".

J. Frank Dalton....Stated Publicly He Was "John" Frank Dalton. ---Lie

After being found to have lied on being ANY DALTON, he switched to Jesse W James. This guy is like Swiss Cheese! I'm still not discounting him as a relative though.

 

[Ditlihi]

*EXACTLY!

"WHOEVER" was killed on Lafayette St, St Joseph,MO in 1882, exhumed and re buried in 1902 in Kearney...Even without embalming... Depending on Depth,Soil, Drainage etc...In a 20yr time span could have been in decent condition.
Im Not Talking about Flesh, Tendons, Muscle or Organs...Unless the Body was Salt Treated which it wasn't. I'm not going to mention Mummification because Very Doubtful anyone knew how and even if they did, the body was buried too soon.

In 1978, IN MY OPINION, That was the Original Casket, or at least one from that time period. If anyone is squeamish don't read this....

BODY:1978- The Larger Bones were Not Attached to each other, and deteriorating, the smaller bones found in the neck, hands, feet and even the forearms were pretty much gone. The smaller bones looked like Dirt Covered Twigs. The skull was deteriorating too but definitely was Face Up. Some of The teeth had fillings I think...I say fillings because some of the teeth looked like gold or silver with dirt on it and Some of the Teeth just looked like teeth that have been in the dirt. I didn't hold anything so that was my 16yr old comparison from MDing Vs. Finding Animal Teeth While Hunting. Far from Scientific.

CASKET:1978- You could tell that originally it had the Window Pane in the Facial area. The Bottom was nothing but soft looking splinters. The casket itself...wouldn't have been worth the trip to use as kindling if it was just wood in a yard.

FABRIC:1978--Those type of caskets from the late 1800's-early 1900 sometimes had a fabric kind of liner on the sides and bottom. Sometimes the body was wrapped in a sheet. I'm assuming Cotton. During the exhumation there were very small bits of fabric...I couldn't tell the color as everything was covered in dark dirt. CLAY COUNTY, MO...Does Not Mean Everything Is Clay! lol.

SLUG:1978-It was Not Damaged (or Shiney) due to dirt I suppose.

BULLET HOLE:St Joseph,MO Home on Lafayette St,--There Is No Way That Could Of Been The ONLY Shot Fired That Day. Anyone who has seen your run of the mill bullet hole in a wall or car knows that either...A) IT MISSED THE TARGET or B) IT WENT THROUGH SOMETHING SOFT. It's Not going to Penetrate The Front And Back of a Skull and come out like that. That either Had to Of Been Staged, Already There, Or a Missed Shot. My guess is it was just another way to make .50¢ as a tourist attraction...Showing the JJ KILL SHOT. It's still there. Next time Im up there I'll go get some good detailed photos. So you guys can decide.

ME:1978- I was 16yrs old. I had gotten a....(DONT TELL FRANK). KODAK 110 camera for my birthday that year. Anyone who remembers the 110's knows that they did Not take good photos. Square, Color Pictures is what you got back after having the film developed. No Adjustments...Point and Push the Button. I'll see if I have any pictures from that day. They won't tell anything really I doubt, but I'll look. I collect cameras so I still have that one! lol!

You are right with the Allegedly... What about a Key like

A-Allegedly
D-Documented
F-Fact
L-Lore

Etc.....?

Something Easy.

A "Key" would be very useful. Great suggestion.!

 

[Kace]

You All Probably Know This, But In Case It Comes Up...


HEAD STONES, TOMBSTONES or ANY GRAVE MARKER....

Anyone can put Anything or Any Name on A Gravestone...It is Not and Never Has Been Illegal.

This came up in My Own Family...I had an Uncle HAL who was a Big Jokester. He knew he was Dying and He had His Stone Done ahead of time with just a....? ONLY! He said anyone who cared would know he was there and anyone else could just wonder! We didn't think it was legal but it is. I'll take a recent pic when I go up to get a current pic of Cole Younger and Co.

 

[Kace]

Think on this, tho; IF... "JJ" was shot in the back of the head (brain stem "area"), wouldn't the bullet come out the face or head...? "Death pic" shows NO front damage...

EXACTY! It would have... IF it didn't exit, it would be damaged. If it did exit HE and IT would be damaged.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

And where does that story originate, that he was buried that way?

SEVERAL sources; MAINLY books... I will try to find which ones. You can ALSO "google" Was the Body of "Jesse James" Buried "Face-Down" in 1882?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I don't think he was Left Handed. His Holster was Right Side. I'll see if I can find something else that shows a tell. A couple letters that have surfaced and have been documented do not have any smudging/creasing from dragging your arm across paper and they do not look like a lefty. I'll try and find those and post them.

Could the Photo you saw have been reversed maybe? IDK? Post it if you can.

I picked up one of my revolvers and keeping my middle finger from going all the way around the grip it's pretty hard. I didn't fire a shot and I've never practiced like that though. Possible to adapt to any loss of limb.

Dunno, if "pic" was reversed; I know that his holster was on his right side to withdraw pistol with his left hand...

 

[uglymailman]

Just going to jump in here to add to some recent posts. A black powder hand gun is nothing like modern firearms. Very low velocity. Bullet might not exit. Cole younger was shot something like 9 times at Northfield,MN. and I think he still had most of them in him. Pretty sure JJ was right handed. A couple of different stories where he shot against people in contest. A lit candle flame was the target. The idea was to put out the flame and not hit the candle. If his opponent shot out the flame first, JJ shot right handed. If they missed, JJ shot left handed. Good story, don't know if true. Didn't they also prove the photo of Billy the Kid was reversed and he was really right handed?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I don't think he was Left Handed. His Holster was Right Side. I'll see if I can find something else that shows a tell. A couple letters that have surfaced and have been documented do not have any smudging/creasing from dragging your arm across paper and they do not look like a lefty. I'll try and find those and post them.

Could the Photo you saw have been reversed maybe? IDK? Post it if you can.

I picked up one of my revolvers and keeping my middle finger from going all the way around the grip it's pretty hard. I didn't fire a shot and I've never practiced like that though. Possible to adapt to any loss of limb.

Yes, I can "post" a web-site with a "pic" of young Jesse, the OUT-Law; SAME "pic" is in many GREAT books. "Google" the Secret Life of Jesse James by Mac White... and; Eyes On Texas: The Truth about Jesse James. HH! Good Luck!

 

[NewAge]

Just going to jump in here to add to some recent posts. A black powder hand gun is nothing like modern firearms. Very low velocity. Bullet might not exit.

JJ was not shot with a black powder or cap and ball revolver.
It was a .45 army colt
At the distance he was shot that bullet is coming out.Which it did above his left eye.

I certainly agree that handguns are much more powerful now but even a .45 muzzle loading pistol ball is coming out at that distance unless it was loaded with a lot less then 70 grains of black powder.

 

[ECS]

... I know that his holster was on his right side to withdraw pistol with his left hand...

Jesse James had many holsters on the right side, and was known to have a left side shoulder holster.
Historical Holsters | Old West Leather, Buckles, Cowboy Holsters, Custom Western Belts
Scroll down to the Jesse James section showing all his holsters and what pistols were in them.

 

[Ditlihi]

JJ was not shot with a black powder or cap and ball revolver.
It was a .45 army colt
At the distance he was shot that bullet is coming out.Which it did above his left eye.

I certainly agree that handguns are much more powerful now but even a .45 muzzle loading pistol ball is coming out at that distance unless it was loaded with a lot less then 70 grains of black powder.

Could you post a link to documentation of the bullet exiting above his left eye? Thanks in advance.