Treasure Signs and Symbols 101

[goldguru]

lay some timbers down and roll, pry it out of the way.

Kinda doubt that..
18 ft x 35 ft x approx (Granite weighs solid per cubic ft others higher) 169 = 106,470 pounds.

so 20 mule train pulls approx 60,000 lbs..(on a Good day) according to google..

The twenty-mule team wagons were among the largest ever pulled by draft animals, designed to carry 10 short tons (9 metric tons) of borax ore at a time. The rear wheels measured seven feet (2.1 m) high, with tires made of one-inch-thick (25 mm) iron. The wagon beds measured 16 feet long and were 6 feet deep (4.9 m long, 1.8 m deep); constructed of solid oak, they weighed 7,800 pounds (3,500 kg) empty; when loaded with ore, the total weight of the mule train was 73,200 pounds (33.2 metric tons or 36.6 short tons).

9 metric tons only 19,800 lbs


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-mule_team


so prob gonna need a 75+ mule team to roll that outa the way..

 

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[Lost Horse]

Hi Rangler,

I would like to pick your brain on trying to determin
the difference between the Jesuit Markers and the Francisans
So to come up with a time line of a mining area

How can one tell if a mining area was before or after 1767
or is it even possable with out written documentation

Any ideas,
Lost Horse

 

[truckinbutch]

GG : apples and pears on needing 75 mules . The borax loads were rolling loads that had to be drawn up grades and controlled going down grades .
5+ times that weight can be moved short distances with very primitive means with no wheels .
To prove a point I once moved an 80,000lb rolling load with one team of Belgian draft horses that weighed 3,200lbs on level ground .

 

[desertmoons]

You know losthorse..i've been thinking about that lately too. But not jesuit vs francisian but just in general.

No solution so far..

 

[Old Dog]

GG : apples and pears

Will grow on the same tree when the graft takes. LOL

 

[goldguru]

GG : apples and pears on needing 75 mules . The borax loads were rolling loads that had to be drawn up grades and controlled going down grades .
5+ times that weight can be moved short distances with very primitive means with no wheels .
To prove a point I once moved an 80,000lb rolling load with one team of Belgian draft horses that weighed 3,200lbs on level ground .

Not in sand & rock rubble U didnt.
but I understand your comment I was only presenting approx weights & whats required.
most persons are not goin to have stable enough ground near the object to be moved ..thats kinda why it is resting there in the 1st place.

 

[Old Dog]

Kim, Losthorse,

6 is a half dozen either way you look at it.

 

[rangler]

Sabre
you said....
New guy Here, been following this Ranger adventure...Wow!
Read the entire 101 post and just want to say thanks for your Service and passing on a most fantastic history.
Your field reporting is just plain exciting. Can't wait.
Vietnam vet myself. USMC apr 68- june 69 mini tet May 5 1968 Quang Nam provinceLost Horse,
said......
Welcome to the site Sabre! Thanks for the kind words and thanks for YOUR service as well!
Jump in any time and ask any questions you like, most of us are here to help!
rangler

~~~~~~
Lost Horse , you said...

Hi Rangler,
I would like to pick your brain on trying to determine
the difference between the Jesuit Markers and the Francisans
So to come up with a time line of a mining area

How can one tell if a mining area was before or after 1767
or is it even possable with out written documentation
Any ideas,

Hi Lost Horse,
Good question!
I think the answer is that since the King of Spain was controlling
the Codes, who ever he appointed to be the new 'contractor' be it
Jesuit, Franciscan or even Dominican.. the Codes would be the same.

They would have to be for the most part, because no matter who mined
and laid down the goods, the Kings men where still the one to recover
the Quint.

I am sure that each group had some marks of their own, for their own
brothers, trail markers, perhaps , but nothing that they would make up
that had to do with the Caches they hid FOR the King.
auriferiously
rangler

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
I was just going to make a "TAG" post, so I can follow this discussion easier but have to add my two shekels. This has been a very interesting thread! Thank you Rangler for the very kind words (viz ancient visitors to America) I can't claim credit for originating that idea though, even the Spanish conquistadors were convinced of it. Captain John Smith (of Pocahontas fame) wrote,

"The Spanyards say that Hanno, a prince of Carthage, was the first and the next Christopher Columbus a Genoesiar, whom they sent to discover those unknown parts 1492."
(from The Historie of Virginia, can't recall the date of publication, 1624? Correction welcomed.)

...so I can't claim that I was the first to conclude that we had folks crossing the oceans long before Columbus.

I am certain that at least some of these ancient visitors buried or hid their treasures here in the Americas, as a very few have been found already. (In one case a new type of plow was being tried out that dug deeper than old models, hit a pocket with hundreds of silver Arabic coins was unearthed that predated Columbus - can't recall the date but it was either the late 1700's or early 1800's when this occurred.)

When we venture into the theory of Jesuits, Templars and others the evidence is murky. That Jesuit missionaries did found a number of missions and the smaller "visitas" in the southwest US/ northwest Mexico is a matter of record, but their involvement in mining activities is not well documented. Often what was a Spanish mine is thought to be a Jesuit mine by treasure hunters today, partly due to the habit of leaving crosses and other religious markers graven into the rock which is then seen as absolute proof of Jesuit involvement, when the fact is most Spanish owned and operated mines had crosses carved into the rocks around them, wooden crosses set up over the entrance etc not because they were Jesuit but because they wanted the protection of God when they were working underground. This is not to say that some Jesuits were NOT involved in mining, which was illegal under Spanish laws. Franciscans and Dominicans were also involved, and occasionally there were "turf" battles such as when the Franciscans founded missions in NE Arizona (even before the arrival of the Jesuits) which was within the Jesuits assigned regions, leading to complaints to the Crown and Pope etc. It is a complex story that only makes sense in parts!

That Templars could have known of America and had the technology to reach these lands seems possible, but finding traces of any Templars which may have visited these lands is quite a task. If they were coming to America, they would have likely done so with an eye to secrecy. It seems probable that they would not have publicized their voyages, and we are not likely to find documentation. I have to admit I am still very much on the fence with the Templars in America, though there are tantalizing bits of evidence as my amigo Rangler has pointed out in other threads. (eg Rosslyn, the strange stone tower in Rhode Island, the "gravestone" of Sir Gunn, etc) I suspect that Rangler has other evidence which might well seal the case, and I don't blame him for not posting it publicly - at least not yet.

I do not find a lot to take issue with in the interpretation of treasure symbols, except that there is room for error. Some symbols used by those who hid treasures are (almost) identical with symbols used by Amerindians with very different purposes - such as the fairly common bird and turtle symbols. Even the heart symbol was occasionally used by Indios, so when these symbols are found it is profitable to take the circumstances into account before making any conclusions. Sometimes it is obvious - as when a turtle is found directly adjacent to other clearly Amerindian symbols, but other times we have to find other clues to either confirm or disprove that the symbol is treasure related.

I will add this, which was a little secret which took some time and effort for me to learn - that these treasure symbols can sometimes be laid out to deliberately throw off any treasure hunters. They will have markings that seem to indicate you should take so many steps, go to another marker, dig a certain depth etc when in reality it is the very placement of the markers which locates the treasure cache. For example, four sets of complex and mysterious markers are found, with various symbols that seem to lead elsewhere - yet simply by using those four sites as "'posts" which should mark off a cross, then locate the spot where the two lines of sight cross where there is NO marker of any kind, this is the spot where the treasure is buried. A flat stone or piece of metal may be buried in this exact spot (the center of the cross) at a shallow depth, directly over the treasure, which the people who buried the treasure could find again by simply pushing a sharp stick or probe into the dirt. To further protect the cache, the folks who buried it may well have also buried smaller, much less valuable "treasures" in places that would "fit" the false clues left on the marker stones, so that a treasure hunter following the false clues can then find the small treasure and quit looking. If this sounds terribly devious, just consider the folks who were hiding it, working illegally and always with the danger that the authorities might find out and try to locate their hidden treasures. These were educated people, as Rangler has mentioned - they were mining engineers, cartographers, even cosmographers and I would say they were very intelligent. Never underestimate the cunning of the folks who hid the treasures! The "cross" layout of marker clues is most common (just my own observation - no way I can prove it) but other layouts were also used, such as the Star of David or Solomon's Seal, though finding the site of the cache is then difficult.

Also - don't assume that finding a cross instantly means that Jesuits or even Christians made it - the cross was an important and powerful symbol LONG before Christ, (Phoenicians used the "long cross" for example) and even among some Amerindian tribes the cross was a powerful magic symbol. (Navajos used it, which was quite a shock to the Padres when they first encountered them.)

One last bit of advice for any neophyte treasure hunters, don't expect to find billboards for clues, most often the clues will be quite small and easily overlooked. If you find a huge marker, it is more likely than not a red herring intended to mislead a treasure hunter. Get a few books on Indian petroglyphs and pictograms, so as to help avoid mistaking Indian signs for treasure markers. The Indian petroglyphs are fascinating in themselves, and tell their own story.

Please do continue gentlemen, I have been enjoying this discussion very much!
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[CanadianTrout]

That's a nice post Oro. Something I can follow for once... lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias amigo! Thank you for the kind words, I hope you have a very pleasant evening!
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[jesus]

Excelente informacion amigo, seguire tus consejos. ( excelent information my friend I will follow your inputs ). Thanks.

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias Jesus, puede encontrar el tesoro que buscan
<I hope you find the treasure that you seek!>
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[rangler]

Nicely put Oro Blanco Amigo!

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you buddy for the kind words, and thank you for posting this thread, very informative and helpful! I hope you will continue to share your hard-earned knowledge and experience.
your friend in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[lanny]

This Hoya looks like the lower part is maybe an owl. This is the North side looking South.

This is the same Hoya on the South side looking North.

Any ideas?

 

[desertmoons]

lanny..i am no expert. And in the phase i am in now..i see signs everywhere. Keep that in mind.

However i think the hoyo was meant to be looked through from the side of the first picture. I believe you are meant to use the hoyo..but also take compass readings or some other sort of measurement off the triangle or heart shaped eye catcher on top of it. Possibly time of day is important when measuring. But you should measure!





Now...VERY wild speculation and i do mean..wild. I mention it only if you should find one of these to be true..let me know privately lol

The trail should be good enough for horse. You are looking for something covered by a slab or less likely a cave/ shaft. It will be in leather bags if they have not deteriorated.

Best Regards!
DM

 

[Springfield]

..... It will be in leather bags if they have not deteriorated.

Why not heavy canvas, DM?

 

[desertmoons]

Oh.. I just assumed leather would be used. Perhaps canvas was the material of choice. Anyway, it is Really off the wall speculation.

 

[gorgias]

http://www.growthconcepts.org/doc/orderpage.html
Steve offers 3 ebooks for $9.95 on Spanish Signs & Symbols
lets see...burger fries and a coke at Mickey D's for two or
three ebooks for the same price, hmmm decisions decisions..

No luck with this link. Can anyone help?

Gorgias