Trail Signs and Monuments-Spanish or Somebody Else

[mdog]

http://www.mysteryglyphs.com/pages/Articles/20090724_0001A.pdf Here is some pretty good info on the Glyphs I found that should explain a lot about how they were engineered.

Cyzak, if you have a mystery glyph associated with your site, there might be information in the glyphs that will give you clues as to it's purpose. If you can get to it, you might try measuring each symbol. This might give you some clue about the type of measurement used. If you get measurements that are consistently on the inch, it might show that the modern inch was used and helping you date it. Not only that, but if the measurements are that exact, it probably means that there is a code that could include the measurements of the symbols. Also, I noticed one symbol that was made at an angle. Measure these angles because they may be pointing you a direction to go toward or maybe a heading. Add all the measurements up and look for clues. The glyph was put there, at that spot, for a reason, and it is probably sending you somewhere else. Something else I would do is find all the owners of the land that the stone is on and find out what you can about them.

 

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[mdog]

Here is a description of Spanish trails that go from New Mexico to the upper Missouri River.

After the Reconquest, the New Mexicans opened up a major trading trail reaching to the upper Missouri. This trade road followed the path of least resistance through Colorado just east of the Rocky Mountains to the North Platte River in the vicinity of the future site of Fort Laramie. There, three alternate routes took the traders to the desired tribes: up the North Platte to present Orin Junction, Wyoming, then north around the west side of the Black Hills to the Mandan villages on the Missouri in North Dakota; upriver to present Casper, Wyoming, then north to the Crows on the Yellowstone in Montana; or northeast from the present Fort Laramie area across northwest Nebraska to the White River, finally reaching the Arikara villages on the Missouri in South Dakota." This important trail or network of trails was in use by about 1700.

This is the link that the excerpt came from.

https://history.nebraska.gov/sites/history.nebraska.gov/files/doc/publications/NH1993Spain.pdf

This is a long section of trail covering hundreds of miles.

I can tell you that close to this network of trails is a Heart, Owl, Triangle site. The monuments are well carved, with no doubt of what they represent. I'm not permitted to give the general location of the site and I don't know the precise location. The reason I mention this is so that you will know that one of these sites are close to a Spanish trading trail.

 

[mdog]

Here is a link that I wanted to include in this thread. It's a good article that mentions the lack of documentation of mining efforts in northern Sonora and southern Arizona.

https://www.miningfoundationsw.org/...AZ - V 2/01_OFFICER_1991_HIST_MINING_AZ_2.PDF

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Here is a link that I wanted to include in this thread. It's a good article that mentions the lack of documentation of mining efforts in northern Sonora and southern Arizona.

https://www.miningfoundationsw.org/...AZ - V 2/01_OFFICER_1991_HIST_MINING_AZ_2.PDF

You always seem to have your documents at hand.

I always seem to find just enough to stitch together with photos, and sometimes my information is much older than I can connect to.

There is always somebody that knows somebody else that can almost remember most of the story...

You get the idea. Fortunately the head of the genealogy society is at hand to clear up the details.

Great subject matter!

#/;0{>~

 

[sdcfia]

Here is a link that I wanted to include in this thread. It's a good article that mentions the lack of documentation of mining efforts in northern Sonora and southern Arizona.

https://www.miningfoundationsw.org/...AZ - V 2/01_OFFICER_1991_HIST_MINING_AZ_2.PDF

Good article, dog. Nice map on page 2.

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

I started out to check my laptop, after taking it apart to clean the fan..... I turned it on last night, and got an immediate notice to shut it down due to a problem with one of it's fans.

That took an hour to do then I tested the repairs and got lost, reading the links, one after another.... five and a half hours ago....

I got lost for some time.... great links.

#/;0{>~

 

[mdog]

Good article, dog. Nice map on page 2.

Yes it is a good article. The map on page 3 caught my attention because the insert shows the Planchas de Plata west of Nogalas.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planchas_de_Plata,_Sonora

Juan Bautista de Anza, before he inspected the site, thought it was a treasure trove left by ancient Indians or illegal miners.



If that was his first impression, I wonder if the Spaniards had been finding treasure hidden by the Indians.

There are some treasure recovery stories about this area west of Nogales. Gollum mentions them in the first post of his thread These Bars Should Not Exist.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/54358-these-bars-should-not-exist.html

I seem to remember somebody else mentioning that Charles Kenworthy found more than 1000 silver bars in this same area. Can somebody confirm or deny that?

 

[mdog]

The pictures that Mike shows in the first post of his thread These Bars Should Not Exist, show Jesuit stamps, so it seems like whoever mined the silver and made the ingots, had no intention of giving the King his share, otherwise they would have had Spanish stamps on them.

Any thoughts. If I'm wrong, tell me.

 

[sdcfia]

Yes it is a good article. The map on page 3 caught my attention because the insert shows the Planchas de Plata west of Nogalas.

View attachment 1680041

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planchas_de_Plata,_Sonora

Juan Bautista de Anza, before he inspected the site, thought it was a treasure trove left by ancient Indians or illegal miners.

View attachment 1680044

If that was his first impression, I wonder if the Spaniards had been finding treasure hidden by the Indians.

There are some treasure recovery stories about this area west of Nogales. Gollum mentions them in the first post of his thread These Bars Should Not Exist.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-legends/54358-these-bars-should-not-exist.html

I seem to remember somebody else mentioning that Charles Kenworthy found more than 1000 silver bars in this same area. Can somebody confirm or deny that?

It's risky business believing in "Jesuit treasure" recovered in AZ. Below is a link to a very enlightening report prepared for a high-end artifact auction house that exposes the famous "Kino Bars" hoax. Photos of these bars are shown in the Gollum thread you referenced. As I recall, the alleged Kenworthy recovery was also refuted in one of the other Jesuit Treasures threads a few years ago, but I don't remember which one.

Kino Ingot & Cross

 

[mdog]

Here's the map I posted earlier showing the El Camino Reals in New Spain. From what I've read so far, these royal roads went to presidios that were built to protect mining areas and settlements on the frontier, from bandits and Indian attacks. If the Heart, Owl, Triangle sites were setup to lead to mining areas, than most of those sites should be in Mexico leading to mines with a large output of precious metals. It wouldn't make sense for the King of Spain to require these monuments leading to small pockets of silver or gold. When de Anza heard about the large silver strike, he rode to the area to inspect the site and decide what the King's share would be. After that, why would they have to build these big monuments. And if there was a big strike, the Royal Road would be extended and a presidio built close to the mining site. So, if you look at the map, chances are that the Spanish didn't know of any large strikes north of their Royal Roads. So these H.O.T. sites might have been built by Spaniards but they were probably operating illegally and had no intentions of taking their gold and silver back to Mexico.

 

[mdog]

It's risky business believing in "Jesuit treasure" recovered in AZ. Below is a link to a very enlightening report prepared for a high-end artifact auction house that exposes the famous "Kino Bars" hoax. Photos of these bars are shown in the Gollum thread you referenced. As I recall, the alleged Kenworthy recovery was also refuted in one of the other Jesuit Treasures threads a few years ago, but I don't remember which one.

Kino Ingot & Cross

Thanks Sdc. That was a good article and had some nice research leads.

The only North American Jesuit treasure recovery that I've found in my research was silver church ornaments buried before an Indian attack at an old mission in Wisconsin. The priest buried the ornaments outside the mission close to a corner of the building. Nothing fancy, no markers, just a fast burial. I would think that most Jesuit treasure would be in legal currency. It seems they made most of their money selling agricultural products to the miners and settlers who lived close to them. If they did find mines, it would probably benefit them more, financially, to report it to the Royal administrators and let the Crown build the infrastructure going to the mines and then the Jesuits could make a killing selling mission merchandise to the miners and settlers. If the mines were rich enough, they might even get a presidio to protect their mission and the new settlers.

The gold bars recovered by Ron are interesting because there is more information about how the recovery was made. Mike pointed out something interesting that is easily seen, that is the marks of the cross and the V are on Ron's bars and the Rose bars. I know it has been said that Ron's bars were cached by a rancher who melted coin to make the bars, but it doesn't make sense that both caches had the same marks, unless the rancher made the bars at both sites and hid them with no thoughts of fraud. That still doesn't make sense because why would the rancher mark them in the first place. And why would he melt the coin?

Does anybody know where the Kenworthy find was made?

 

[sdcfia]

Thanks Sdc. That was a good article and had some nice research leads.

The only North American Jesuit treasure recovery that I've found in my research was silver church ornaments buried before an Indian attack at an old mission in Wisconsin. The priest buried the ornaments outside the mission close to a corner of the building. Nothing fancy, no markers, just a fast burial. I would think that most Jesuit treasure would be in legal currency. It seems they made most of their money selling agricultural products to the miners and settlers who lived close to them. If they did find mines, it would probably benefit them more, financially, to report it to the Royal administrators and let the Crown build the infrastructure going to the mines and then the Jesuits could make a killing selling mission merchandise to the miners and settlers. If the mines were rich enough, they might even get a presidio to protect their mission and the new settlers.

The gold bars recovered by Ron are interesting because there is more information about how the recovery was made. Mike pointed out something interesting that is easily seen, that is the marks of the cross and the V are on Ron's bars and the Rose bars. I know it has been said that Ron's bars were cached by a rancher who melted coin to make the bars, but it doesn't make sense that both caches had the same marks, unless the rancher made the bars at both sites and hid them with no thoughts of fraud. That still doesn't make sense because why would the rancher mark them in the first place. And why would he melt the coin?

Does anybody know where the Kenworthy find was made?

Remember, the King of Spain forbid any mining in the New World by the Jesuit Order. The Crown would hardly spend the resources for presidios to protect Jesuit mines. Settlements, yes (like at Tubac AZ), but not mines. If there were rich mines, the Spanish would have legally seized them for themselves. They did just that with the Planches de Plata discovery near the MX/AZ border.

That said, I do suspect the brothers arranged for others to recovery minor amounts of silver for them in AZ in order to manufacture candlesticks for the missions, etc., and to have modest amounts of trade silver for goods. The legends of massive gold and silver caches left by them in AZ after they were expelled from the New World in 1767 are likely exaggerations of stories similar to the Wisconsin church ornaments. There's a similar story around the del Bac mission south of Tucson.

Let's face it. The Jesuits were (are) considered to be among the smartest and most cunning manipulators on earth. If they stashed massive amounts of metal in AZ prior to 1767, why would anyone assume they did not recover the caches themselves anytime after the Order was allowed back in 1816? The usual answer is that they forgot where the loot was hidden. Oh, really? My guess is that there are no large Jesuit caches. Of course, I could be mistaken.

We are told that the rancher bars recovered by that guy Ron had the "Jesuit marks" on them - at least that's what's claimed based on some photos. The marks are similar to the Kino bars, which were proven to be fraudulent. Why would the rancher do it? Did Ron do it? No idea. I'm confident the gold originated in MX before being buried in AZ, but all the details are cloudy IMO.

I wish I had better luck with the Tnet search feature. Anytime I've found something I've looked for I've been surprised. Usually I have to guess at which thread, then do a Google search on each page in the thread for a key word. I'm not about to do it for Kenworthy, as my opinion is that he's a disinformationist from the word go. Others love the guy. All I remember for sure is that his "recovery" was somewhere in southern AZ.

 

[White Heart]

In regard to "Somebody Else" and the previous mentions of ancient trails and the moundbuilder sites with stone work inside, the giant carved figures, and the notches in ridgelines that we find.
I found this interesting article today about megalithic sites in Europe and their evolution during the period of 6000 to 4000 years ago. First built in central France and spread far and wide by a seafaring culture. How far? This far?
Food for thought.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article...edium=email&utm_campaign=latest-newsletter-v2

WH

 

[mdog]

Remember, the King of Spain forbid any mining in the New World by the Jesuit Order. The Crown would hardly spend the resources for presidios to protect Jesuit mines. Settlements, yes (like at Tubac AZ), but not mines. If there were rich mines, the Spanish would have legally seized them for themselves. They did just that with the Planches de Plata discovery near the MX/AZ border.

That said, I do suspect the brothers arranged for others to recovery minor amounts of silver for them in AZ in order to manufacture candlesticks for the missions, etc., and to have modest amounts of trade silver for goods. The legends of massive gold and silver caches left by them in AZ after they were expelled from the New World in 1767 are likely exaggerations of stories similar to the Wisconsin church ornaments. There's a similar story around the del Bac mission south of Tucson.

Let's face it. The Jesuits were (are) considered to be among the smartest and most cunning manipulators on earth. If they stashed massive amounts of metal in AZ prior to 1767, why would anyone assume they did not recover the caches themselves anytime after the Order was allowed back in 1816? The usual answer is that they forgot where the loot was hidden. Oh, really? My guess is that there are no large Jesuit caches. Of course, I could be mistaken.

We are told that the rancher bars recovered by that guy Ron had the "Jesuit marks" on them - at least that's what's claimed based on some photos. The marks are similar to the Kino bars, which were proven to be fraudulent. Why would the rancher do it? Did Ron do it? No idea. I'm confident the gold originated in MX before being buried in AZ, but all the details are cloudy IMO.

I wish I had better luck with the Tnet search feature. Anytime I've found something I've looked for I've been surprised. Usually I have to guess at which thread, then do a Google search on each page in the thread for a key word. I'm not about to do it for Kenworthy, as my opinion is that he's a disinformationist from the word go. Others love the guy. All I remember for sure is that his "recovery" was somewhere in southern AZ.

Thanks Sdc. I was thinking the Kenworthy find was in southern Arizona, west of Nogales, and in the same area as these other stories. I didn't have any luck with the Tnet search either.

In New France, the Jesuit priests received offerings of furs from their Indian converts. They told the Indians that their spot in Heaven was assured if they gave their best furs. Maybe something similar happened in the southwest with gold or silver.

As far as the Jesuits being responsible for the Heart, Owl, Triangle sites, I don't know. There seems to be enough repetition at these sites to indicate organization from within a large group. There might have been Spanish in this group but I doubt these sites were required by the King of Spain. Which Spanish King signed off on these rules? Are there sites, such as these, in Spain or South America? Too many questions to be answered.

 

[mdog]

In regard to "Somebody Else" and the previous mentions of ancient trails and the moundbuilder sites with stone work inside, the giant carved figures, and the notches in ridgelines that we find.
I found this interesting article today about megalithic sites in Europe and their evolution during the period of 6000 to 4000 years ago. First built in central France and spread far and wide by a seafaring culture. How far? This far?
Food for thought.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article...edium=email&utm_campaign=latest-newsletter-v2

WH

Thanks White Heart. I've also been looking at ancient contact in North America. One of the big questions, in this thread, is who made those big stone animal monuments. Here is a link that shows an ancient culture that made large animal sculptures out of big stones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verraco

Notice that this culture was located in Iberia where the Spanish would have seen and become familiar with these statues.

I'm going to post some links that might give you a new way to look for evidence of ancient contact in North America. I don't know if anybody has ever looked for evidence from this angle before.

Here are a couple of time periods to remember while reading the links.

Old Copper Culture-4000-1000 BC
Bronze Age Europe-3200-600 BC
Bronze Age Near East 3300-1200 BC

When the first Spanish returned from the New World in the mid 1490's, they brought more than Aztec silver and gold, they brought syphilis. Here are the links and remember the dates I posted above.

https://scielo.conicyt.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0717-73562000000200009

Non-Unitarian Theory
The most important supporter of this theory is Hackett (1963, 1967) who suggests that the different clinical pictures are probably produced by treponemal mutations. At least four mutations have occurred in the last 10.000 years. He suggests that the first and oldest treponematosis mustbe pinta, extending from Africa and Asia to America 15.000 years ago. He suggests that mutation occurred around 10,000 B.C. and that it was due to a more humid and warm environment. He suggested that for the origin of yaws that extended through Africa, Southeastern Asia and probably Pacific islands and Australasia. He suggested that a second mutation from yaws to bejel or endemic syphilis took place 7.000 years B.C. It was favored by an arid and warm environment in Sahara and Northern Africa, Central and Southwestern Asia, and Central Australia. He suggested that another mutation appeared around 3.000 B.C., coinciding with the development of urban areas in Eastern Mediterranean regions and Southwestern Asia. He suggested that bejel (typical in children of rural regions) mutated to venereal syphilis. The fourth and last mutation took place in Europe in the final years of the fifteenth century and it was favored by environmental and social conditions of the cities presenting more serious repercussions.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956094/


Hypotheses on the origin of syphilis
The pre-columbian hypothesis. The advocates of this hypothesis claim that not only syphilis was widely spread in both Old and New World, but also the other treponemal diseases. In Europe, most of these conditions were mistaken for leprosy [3]. According to this hypothesis, pinta occurred in Afro-Asian zone by the year 15.000 BC, having an animal reservoir. Yaws appeared as a consequence of the mutations in pinta around 10.000 BC and spread allover the world, except for the American continent which was isolated. The endemic syphilis emerged from jaws by the selection of several treponemas, as a consequence of climate changes (the appearance of the arid climate) around 7000 BC. Around 3000 BC the sexually transmitted syphilis emerged from endemic syphilis in South-Western Asia, due to lower temperatures of the post-glacial era and spread to Europe and the rest of the world. Initially it manifested as a mild disease, eventually aggravated and grew in virulence, suffering from several mutations, at the end of the 15th century [2,3].

https://archive.archaeology.org/9701/newsbriefs/syphilis.html

Using these criteria, they examined 687 skeletons from archaeological sites in the United States and Ecuador ranging in age from 400 to 6,000 years. Populations to the south (New Mexico, Florida, and Ecuador) proved to have syphilis, while those to the north (Ohio, Illinois, and Virginia) had yaws. By contrast, examination of 1,000 Old World skeletons dated to before contact with the New World revealed no cases of syphilis. This suggests that syphilis was first present in the New World and was later brought to the Old World. Furthermore, the Rothschilds found that the earliest yaws cases in the New World collections were at least 6,000 years old, while the first syphilis cases were at least 800 years old and perhaps more than 1,600 years old. This suggests that syphilis may be a New World mutation of yaws, which has a worldwide distribution. The occurrence of the same mutation giving rise to syphilis independently in the New and Old worlds seems unlikely.

 

[mdog]

My take on post 215 is that yaws existed worldwide about 10,000 BC, except in the Americas because they were isolated.

The earliest case of yaws, in North America, was from about 6000 years ago, or around 4000 BC. This was at about the time of the beginning of the Old Copper Culture and well before the beginning of the European and Near East Bronze Age. European 3200-600 BC and Near East 3300-1200 BC. Could it be that yaws was brought to North America by miners from Europe or the Near East. And if the earliest syphilis case was from about 400 AD to 1200 AD, that would be well after the end of the Old Copper Culture and might explain why ancient European or Near East miners didn't take syphilis back to the Old World at the end of the Bronze Age.

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

I don’t want to derail this line of discussion, but I’m wondering if anyone has photos of the symbols that are already here,,,

If they are here, I missed them.

All I found is this.



And a few others.

#/;0{>?~

 

[sdcfia]

Thanks White Heart. I've also been looking at ancient contact in North America. One of the big questions, in this thread, is who made those big stone animal monuments. Here is a link that shows an ancient culture that made large animal sculptures out of big stones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verraco

Good link, dog. Those large carvings leave no doubt that they are indeed carvings, not merely "looks like" rocks. So many posted "looks like" rocks that folks ID as "manmade signs" pointing to some great hidden treasure nearby show no indications that man actually laid a hand on them. To be fair, some examples are intriguing, but 99% are products of hopeful and overactive imaginations. IMO.

Seems like those adept "ancients" who hid all this loot ought to have left a more definitive clue for their followers to find, not just a rock that, if you squint and hop on one foot sorta kinda looks like the King's poodle. Seriously, if these guys had the ability to circumnavigate the world, discover vast riches and then hide the goods somewhere in the wilderness (instead of taking it home with them), wouldn't you suppose their markers would be distinctive enough for anyone to recognize?

Here's a carving - not photorealistic by any means, but certainly recognizable to anyone - that was made 13,000 years ago in Gobekli Tepe. OK, let's say the cachers didn't carve a 3D figure, which is my belief. Why then not carve a glyph and/or some other symbol(s) - manmade and pertinent to later searchers? Carved bedrock is, except for a major earthquake or some other cataclysm, permanent. Not so for cairns, surface rocks, bent trees, carved cactii, et al, which can be knocked down, flooded out, moved, burnt or die of old age, all brought about by weather, animals, humans or time. Me, if I'm hiding stacks of gold, I'm marking it permanently with something clearly manmade.



For Pete's sake, here's a carving in NM of two mountain lions made in Precolumbian times out of a soft, erodible volcanic tuff. Even with severe aging, this 700 year old thing - made with very crude tools - is certainly recognizable as being manmade. Let's face it - the ancients would have done better than the "looks like a horse" rocks and such that people want to believe was carved by them.

 

[mdog]

I don’t want to derail this line of discussion, but I’m wondering if anyone has photos of the symbols that are already here,,,

If they are here, I missed them.

All I found is this.

View attachment 1680457

And a few others.

#/;0{>?~

Mikel, did you find these symbols or are you looking for more Mystery Glyph symbols?

 

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Thanks MDOG, I have seen several of the drawings. What I’m wondering about, is there are any photos of the Super Glyphs.

I’m a bit like you, wanting to see clearly made signs and symbols that are clearly man made.

By the way, I like the Superman. It’s clear that he has had a rough few centuries ( broken In three pieces) but leaves no doubt that he is hand made!

That is outstanding..
while I can understand the need to see clearly that it’s man made, I’m kinda relieved that some of them have just a little doubt, just to make folks have a hard time figuring out where my stuff is... so to speak. But I still want to know where it is!!

Always a great thread. Hitting the logistics is is a good idea.

I figured that out, when I started tracking down Hernand de Soto.

They had to abandon many of their horses because of the lack of iron to make horseshoes ... that had to be one of those teachable moments.

#/;0{>~