Rock Engraved Treasure signs by the Peralta group,in the Superstitions

[lamar]

Dear bob631;
Goodnight my old friend, and before you retire for the evening, might I suggest a bit of rejoicing, for you have been enlightened.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

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[gollum]

I'm glad I was able to give you guys a supercharge for your egos give the picture of yourself a kiss good night when you go to bed, and if you feel like you've been slandered have your lawyer call me and we'll talk about the acid trip comments, I know how to save this stuff too.

Why don't you guys get a life

Bobbie, Bobbie, Bobbie,

You REALLY need to learn the difference between an insult and slander! When you claim that I am plagiarizing someone else's work, THAT is slander. When I say that it would take a near lethal dose of LSD to understand your interpretation of a nebulous rock formation (nebulous means: cloudy or cloudlike), that is my opinion and an insult. A great difference between you making a statement that I use other people's work.

Here is the difference:

Opinion/Insult: Jimmy is an ugly troll (that is a mythical [that means made up] animal).

Slander: Jimmy is a thief (someone who steals).

..........and no, I'm not a litigious type of person anyway (that means someone who sues a lot). In dealing with me, being sued is one of the very last things anybody has to worry about.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
As an FYI, gambling is not prohibited by the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, I remember that my very first prayer went something like this(complete with a County Cork accent):
I as in Isiah-19 !
Under the G as in Genesis-34
O as in Ophir 61
B-Benjamin 5
I think Mrs. Smith has a BINGO!!!
(a little old school Roman Catholic humor for those who may recall the bingo fundraisers that Catholics were (in)famous for) This is also how we remebered all of the Bibical names:-)

In all seriousness, gambling has never been prohibited by the Roman Catholic church, however EXCESSIVE gambling is, as is EXCESSIVE drinking or even smoking. Perhaps you have us Catholics confused with those wild and crazy Baptists, my friend?

Therefore, whether Jesuits were standing behind someone whilst playing cards or not is sort of a moot point, as there is nothing in Catholic dogma prohibiting card playing.
Your friend who still has his flimsy stamp;
LAMAR

 

[tulecanyon]

question withdrawn.

 

[gollum]

Dear gollum;
As an FYI, gambling is not prohibited by the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, I remember that my very first prayer went something like this(complete with a County Cork accent):
I as in Isiah-19 !
Under the G as in Genesis-34
O as in Ophir 61
B-Benjamin 5
I think Mrs. Smith has a BINGO!!!
(a little old school Roman Catholic humor for those who may recall the bingo fundraisers that Catholics were (in)famous for) This is also how we remebered all of the Bibical names:-)

In all seriousness, gambling has never been prohibited by the Roman Catholic church, however EXCESSIVE gambling is, as is EXCESSIVE drinking or even smoking. Perhaps you have us Catholics confused with those wild and crazy Baptists, my friend?

Therefore, whether Jesuits were standing behind someone whilst playing cards or not is sort of a moot point, as there is nothing in Catholic dogma prohibiting card playing.
Your friend who still has his flimsy stamp;
LAMAR

Lamar,

If you read the "Rules and precepts of the Jesuit missions of northwestern New Spain" by Fr. CW Polzer SJ, you will find that in THIS instance, gambling and card playing was strictly prohibited. I'm not certain that Bingo had been invented yet. My bad. I just found this:

The game's history can be traced back to 1530, to an Italian lottery called "Lo Giuoco del Lotto D'Italia," which is still played every Saturday in Italy.

HAHAHA

But seriously, Jesuit Gambling in Nueva Espana was strictly prohibited, as was any venture that was "for profit". Now, as long as the "for profit" was not for the mission, but WAS for shipment back to Rome, things weren't quite as strict.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
Yes, I recall that ANY sort of card playing was prohibited by the Superior General of the Jesuit missions in New Spain, however playing cards was not prohibited by the Holy See. As an aside, being a spectator at a card game was not expressly prohibited, therefore in the strictest context of the rules the Jesuits were doing nothing wrong. Also, the Jesuits were, and still are a Mendicant Order, the original meaning being that the Order in question lived strictly from the donations of others.

In the 12th century, the Great Mendicant Orders were permitted to own property as an Order, but not as individuals. In the latter part of the 15th century, all Catholic religious Orders were permitted to earn money collectively on the fruits of their labors as religious Orders. The Jesuits remain self-supporting from tuitions raised throughout their vast educational network. Other Orders perform many varied functions, including making cheeses and wines, beeswax candles, etc.

As such, members of the Mendicant Orders take vows of poverty, both as individuals and as a collective Order, therefore it would be impossible for them to send money to the Vatican, as they are supposed to be poor. If they started sending funds back to Rome then I would assume that someone would get suspicious very quickly.

There is great misconception that the Holy See realizes a percentage of all donations made to the various dioceses of the Roman Catholic church, however nothing could be further from the truth. Every diocese is self supporting and does not receive funds from the Vatican, nor sends funds to the Vatican. The Vatican became wealthy due to donations made directly to it as a diocese of the Roman Catholic church and NOT as the Vatican.

Everyone seems to think that the minerals of the New World went into some sort of pipeline which went directly to the coffers of the Vatican, but nothing of the sort happened. The Roman Catholic church depends wholly upon donations of it's members, known as a tithe. There is no set amount, however it is traditionally set at 8 to 10% of a persons' annual income. All Catholics are expected to tithe and this was enforced quite strictly during the Middle Ages and Reformation periods.

The Kingdom of Spain received it's 20% from it's colonists, which by the way, is where we get the word "ROYALITY" from. If you have a hit song then you recieve a *royality* from every CD sold, or a set percentage. After the Kingdom of Spain got it's 20% royality, it was then expected to pay 10% of that amount as tithing. It worked out to around 2%, however in order to work around the tithe, the nobles of Europe were known to spend the royalities as fast as they received them, thus maintaining a constant state of near insolvency, thus not having to pay the tithe.

In truth, the Roman Catholic church received very little in monetary gains from the settlements of the New World. To further understand the power of collective donations, one only needs to look at the Church of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons). This is a very new religion, yet it has a very healthy balance sheet and it got that balance sheet wholly upon the generous donations of it's members. That the Mormons have been in existence for a mere 150 years pales in comparison when one realizes that the Roman Catholic church has been in existence for more 15 times that length of time and it's membership at any given time exceeds that of the Mormons by a substantial amount.

Therefore I may state with some authority that the Jesuit missions of New Spain did not send back anything to Rome except for missionaries.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

This is where our two boats pass in the night!

I understand and agree with the great majority of what you posted, except......................

By the strictest sense of the the law, the Jesuits did not send money back to Rome. It was not in coin form. It would have been in the form of bars (either rough dore bars or refined bullion). The wealth they derived from mining activities was sent to Rome (Vatican or Jesuit Order I have no evidence). The things they possessed in their Missions all disappeared right before the 1767 Suppression. There are contemporary letters that speak of banisters of solid silver. Silver and Gold Plates, Chalices, Candelabras, etc. When the Spanish grabbed them, it was all missing.

I won't go into all the evidence again I have that proves the Jesuits were heavily involved in mining activities. Before I ever had a thing, I had the word of a Cardinal (in the United States) to that effect. He stated that he would not repeat the statement publicly, but assured his nephew that Rome received much gold and silver from the Jesuits in the New World. Whatever you may have learned, I can promise you, is incorrect. I, personally, have statements from someone in the Jesuit Curia that they held maps to Jesuit Mines (not in the Curia, but elsewhere, I can only assume in Jesuit New World Archives he wouldn't be more specific).

One more thing, EXPLAIN why, when he thought that Tayopa had been found, Fr. Polzer SJ flew to Mexico and attempted to claim it for the Church? To me, THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES!!!

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear bob361;
"It's great exercise and you meet all kinds of friends with similar interests like my friend carlos here, he's from spain."

Ironically, from listening to certain members of this forum, one would assume that the Spaniards had stolen enough from the New World already... As an aside, is Carlos COMPLETELY trustworthy? Being Spanish and all, he very well could be a member of the Kings' Recovery Crew. For that matter, how do you know for certain that he is not a covert Jesuit operative? The Jesuits have a very big operation in Spain these days, or so I hear. Is Carlos a Catholic? Does he pray before he eats? Be careful of your so-called *friends*. One of them may be part of a conspiracy.
Your only friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear bob631;
Even though you are confident, please remain ever cautious and vigilant my friend. The hole Carlos is standing in is deep enough to bury a body in, in case you haven't thought of this already. We don't want to wonder what happened to you, so please be extra careful.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

..........and no, I'm not a litigious type of person anyway (that means someone who sues a lot). In dealing with me, being sued is one of the very last things anybody has to worry about.

What a relief for me Mikey, I was really losing sleep over worrying about you being able to sue me

I've moved past random cloud signs now, and actually am into random deep hole digging. It's great exercise and you meet all kinds of friends with similar interests like my friend carlos here, he's from spain. Like I said before there fellas, no one really cares what you say or think and if i ever need someone to operate a shovel I'll give you a call.

Bob,

What kind of signal did Carlos give off on your detector? It looks like you have a very good digging technique. You got all the dirt from around him without doing any damage!

Listen, all teasing and insults aside. Like I said, none of us are there. We only have to go by the pics we are shown. Some people will tell you that they see a million things in every picture. Some refuse to see anything in any picture. You know about whom I speak. I try to be completely honest in everything I am asked about. If I can see something, I say so. If I see nothing, I say so as well. In short, I calls 'em likes I sees 'em. Why you get mad at me, I have no idea? I had never insulted you before. I only gave my honest opinions, as I do with EVERY person I deal with. It's never personal with me, until someone else makes it personal. HeII, remember Jacko? Heckuva nice guy, but he was seeing Spanish Signs in BUSHES and grass! While I only occasionally saw anything real in his pics, we always had a friendly relationship.

I may be a little on the skeptical side, but that's only because of those who see skulls, ducks, and hearts many times in every picture. When you dismiss my opinions, without knowing much about me, you only do a disservice to yourself. As will be made clear in about a week, there are many well known people who value what I know and do enough to give me a great privilege, and a BIIIIIG responsibility.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
As a bit of an amatueur history hound, I often find myself attempting to unravel various historic mysteries. These mysteries are factual in content, however for whatever the events or reasons, the details have been lost to time. And now, I would like to research your claims of Jesuit treasure troves even further, if I may.

"It would have been in the form of bars (either rough dore bars or refined bullion). The wealth they derived from mining activities was sent to Rome (Vatican or Jesuit Order I have no evidence). The things they possessed in their Missions all disappeared right before the 1767 Suppression. There are contemporary letters that speak of banisters of solid silver. Silver and Gold Plates, Chalices, Candelabras, etc. When the Spanish grabbed them, it was all missing."

Does there happen to be any archived evidence of these alledged solid silver banisters, my friend? What of the silver and gold plate, chalices, candelabras, etc. If these items were in fact in the possession of the Jesuits and then disappeared when the Jesuits were ejected from New Spain, then this would be a basis to suspect wrongdoing. Surely, if the missionaires were as wealthy as some seem to think they were, then the wealth would undoubtedly have been duly recorded by every literate settler who passed through those missions. From your previous post, it would seem that the Jesuits in question were making no attempt to hide their sudden windfall.

"I had the word of a Cardinal (in the United States) to that effect. He stated that he would not repeat the statement publicly, but assured his nephew that Rome received much gold and silver from the Jesuits in the New World. "

Why does this not surprise me, my friend? As a point of fact, every word from a clergymans' mouth is public record. Being members of the clergy, they realize that they are public figures and as such, their every word and deed becomes subject to much srutiny. I think it's extremely odd that a Roman Catholic clergy member, and a Cardinal at that, would not go on the record with a statement, yet confided in you that which he was afraid to confide in others. Perhaps he was simply repeating a time worn rumor which he had heard and he had no actual proof to back up his words, therefore he would not go *on the record* with his statements, lest he made to look foolish by others.

"I, personally, have statements from someone in the Jesuit Curia that they held maps to Jesuit Mines (not in the Curia, but elsewhere, I can only assume in Jesuit New World Archives he wouldn't be more specific)."

Of course he wouldn't be more specific! If he had been more specific, then the entire conspiracy would have unraveled, my friend! That not a single page of actual documented evidence has yet been uncovered, or even a single statement from a reputable witness ever recorded, leads me to doubt the veracity of the wrongdoing of the Jesuits of New Spain.

"One more thing, EXPLAIN why, when he thought that Tayopa had been found, Fr. Polzer SJ flew to Mexico and attempted to claim it for the Church? To me, THAT SPEAKS VOLUMES!!!"

And just HOW did Fr. Polzer attempt to claim this so-called lost mine for the Church, my friend? Did he file a legal claim for the return of said mine with the courts in Mexico? If he did, then the volumes of which you speak would certainly be susbtantial. If he did in fact attempt to claim the legal return of the mine of Tayopa to Church hands, then there MUST be SOME legal document attesting to the fact. There would have been legal representation involved in the matter and supporting documents written and duly recorded by clerks.

Unfortunately, thus far no legal documentation has been uncovered in Mexico, my friend. In light of this fact, we may therefore conclude that the alledged event never happened, or if Fr. Polzer did state something to the effect that he was claiming a lost mine for the Church in Mexico, then perhaps he was doing so in jest? Some Catholic priests DO have a sense of humor after all, even Jesuit ones.

And why not question Fr. Polzer directly about this rumor? Ooops, we can't ask, as Fr. Polzer seems to have passed on. Coincidentally, it seems that EVERY person who was involved in a Jesuit conspiracy is dead, and it's only with their passings that the truth of their nefarious involvement comes to light. Am I the only person who thinks this is strange, my friend?

So, my friend, until at least the minimal amount of documented evidence bobs to the surface, it would seem that you are naught but chasing rumors through the deserts of history.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Where to start Lamar,

While I dig through what I have to find the silver banister letter, I will give you this:

Father Juan de Ugarte dismantled, moved and rebuilt the mission San Javier Vigge, because it was originally built where nothing could be grown. Farther Ugarte also went to the trouble of filling the Canada de Aranjuez with 160,000 mule loads of earth to create the agricultural area at San Miguel Comondu. See Jose Velasquez, Saga of a Borderland Soldier, pages 38-39. The main alter in the mission of San Javier Vigge, is coverd in about a million dollars worth of gold at todays prices. Somebody went to a lot of trouble for something!

San Javier Vigge is a Mission on the Baja Peninsula, and the reason for the entire quote was originally to show that many Missions were built only because they were in mining areas.

There is also much evidence to the fact of Mission holdings in the writings of some Jesuits after returning to Europe after the expulsion. Not at hand right now, but i will post them when I dig them out. Currently, I am working on something that is going to be taking up much of my time.

As far as the Cardinal's Word. It was not given to me, but (as I posted) to his nephew. A man whose word I have never found reason to doubt. The nephew has searched for Jesuit caches based on his uncle's word, and has found some interesting things. No offense, but I will take his word over your opinions in this matter.

NOW, on to Father Polzer! No, I have not traveled to Mexico to find copies of any filings he may have made. THAT would not be a valid reason for any trips to Mexico. Only as an aside. What I DO have is a first hand account of the story, and a letter from Father Polzer, that while it does not speak of the story, places him in Mexico at the time the story was said to have happened (people have been sent to prison on less evidence).

Best-Mike

 

[eagle]

Well Bob did you and Carlos find anything??
Or are you still digging??

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

I found some of what I was looking for. Padre Juan Nentvig SJ, in his 1764 classic "Rudo Ensayo" spoke about the furnishings of the Missions of Nueva Espana:

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears.

The last sentence (piae affectionis) lets us know where the phrase "Believe only half of what you see, and none of what you hear".

I will add more as I come across it.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
I do understand that you are attempting to portray the mission churches as splendid, opulent centers of worship, and from reading a stark sentence or two, this might seem likely, HOWEVER, when reading the ENTIRE document it paints a picture with a slightly less rosy hue:

"Because the churches are constructed of adobe, except the one at Batuc, they are in need of repair continually, and only those who build in Sonora know how costly it is. A certain missionary in need of fifty pine rafters offered to pay 2,500 pesos in silver for them but found no sellers. Since there are stone quarries everywhere, if there were stone masons available to construct arches and vaults, the larger investment would mean a saving in the long run. "

Reading the document now allows us to understand that the churches were constructed from adobe except for one, and also that there were stone quarries throughout the region, therefore the churches all had the capability of being constructed from stone, yet owing to the fact there were no available stone masons, we now know that the structures were built from adobe. Now exactly the height of splendor, I would say.

"All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold."

And so, we now know that all of the mission churches had side alters, the appropriate ornamentation, and silver chalices, and in three instances, the churches in question actually possessed chalices of gold. This does not state to me that the missions were overely prosperous. Quite the opposite, actually. Possessing a silver chalice, while perhaps adding a touch of prestigue to a mission church, in no way labels it as a vast mineral storehouse, in fact the document inadvertently states that the missions were indeed quite poor materially.

"Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears. "

The words "PIAE AFFECTIONIS" are difficult to translate into English as the short sentecnce has no direct English meaning. The corresponding sentence "PIOUS AFFECTIONS(DEVOTIONS)" might work, but only in the broadest sense. The word PIAE in Latin was used to describe a person who would have been punctual in their everyday routine,scrupulous in keeping their word and very devout in their beliefs. So, to describe the mission members as "PIAE AFFECTIONIS" would be in the context that the parishioners would have been regular Mass attendees, devout in prayer and participation, and highly spiritual in nature.

"To believe through their eyes rather than their ears" tells us that the native populace responded better to an empherical learning process rather than the more traditional Greek style of theoretical learning. In other words, the Jesuit missionaries used the "monkey see, monkey do" approach to spiritual and most probably, scholastic applications when instructing the natives.

"and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well."

This sentence does NOT state that every listed item was fabricated from silver, merely that nearly all churches had at least one silver statue of the Virgin Mary. Also, the sentence does not state whether these statues were solid sterling, which is extremely doubtful, or gilded in slivere, which is much more likely. In other words, the statues lent a regal air to the mission churches while at the same time not exposing the mission complex to unecessary risks to bandits and thieves.

One slaient pont to bear in mind is that the missions in question which exactly what they were purported to be. Missions. They were not fortresses, castles, strongholds or even easily defensible complexes. That they were poorly defended and quite often the subject of local raids is quite clear.

"As it is now, the natives leave the pueblos to go to reales de minas with no desire to return. This leaves their wives as widows and their children as orphans."

Here is a VERY interesting statement, indeed! From this sentence we now know that many native men of the missions left their families in order to work in the ROYAL mines! In other words, they left their respective families to work in the Kings' mines, which was NOT illegal as the King owned mined in the New World, my friend. No where in the document which you've provided does it state that the natives worked in Jesuit mines, or mines ministered by the Jesuits, rather, that the Indian men abadoned their families in order to seek employment in the Royal mines.

Obviously, there must have been a severe shortage of manpower in the region if the native men were abandoning the missions in order to go work in the Kings' mines, my friend. If the natives were in fact working in secret or hidden Jesuit mines, then, instead of mission populations dwindling, they would have indeed swelled, to the bursting point I would imagaine. This sentence from Fr. Nentvig leads much credence that there were no secret Jesuit mines in the vicinity, my friend.

Ans so, taking all available written evidence in the proper context, your example seems to re-enforce my theory rather than yours, my friend. I am now quite curious as to what other *aces you may have hidden up your sleeve* and I await these salicious gems of information with bated breath.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Now Now Lamar,

YOU are venturing from a specific statement made by Father Nentvig! When you say that the Statues of Mary and other silver were likely made of silver PLATE. If Nentvig had meant to say that, I am pretty certain that he would have included that in an argument for the poverty of the missions. YOU are making a horrendous mistake that might well cause me to take your arguments far less seriously than I do! Please do not try and twist words, or make assumptions based on nothing but your opinion, so that they fit your arguments. It makes you less than what I think you to be!

I have several instances of the same type of statements made by various Jesuit Fathers in the New World (a few while still here, and some after the suppression).

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
I am NOT twisting anything, my friend. After all, if a statue were gilded in silver, how would one know if he were a visitor? Having read through the entire letter of Fr. Juan Nentvig, one may safely assume that the missions of New Spains were indeed financially poor. Instead of taking a specific word or sentence and placing under a microscope, I read the document in it's entirety, and these are some of pertinent points.

"Although the province of Sonora is rather large and complex with many reales de minas, towns and ranches peopled by Spaniards and gente de razón, there are only three curacies. The first is San Juan Bautista which was abandoned May 3, 1751, as stated in chapter ix, section one, and while in a physical sense its church still remains, its minister61 resides at San Miguel de Horcasitas where services are conducted in the presidio's chapel. The church edifice at San Miguel de Horcasitas was begun in 1753 by Governor Don Pablo de Arce y Arroyo during the boom days of the Antúnez gold mine. Today the edifice remains roofless and its adobe walls subjected to ruin by the rains. Because of the decadence of the Antúnez real, there is little hope the building will be completed unless a rich mine is discovered in that region soon. Its residents are extremely poor and support themselves solely by working their fertile land. But they have no outlet for their produce. They have plenty of food, but they go almost naked.

Another curacy is located at Nacozari with a well equipped church of suitable capacity, but because of the meager population of the real of Nacozari and for security reasons, its father, Curate Don Joaquín Félix Díaz, resides at the presidio of Fronteras where he has better facilities for escort when he visits the ministries under his charge. Services are conducted in the fort's chapel, newly erected in 1763.

The areas of both these curacies are so large that the two priests, having no assistants, find it extremely difficult to attend them. To visit the places of their respective jurisdictions, each priest must travel more than two hundred leagues with imminent risk of being attacked by Apaches or Seris.

The third curacy, San Francisco de Asís, is no smaller than the others, for it covers not only a part of Ostimuri Province but a good portion of Sonora as well, comprising the area from the right bank of the Yaqui River on the south and east to San Miguel de Horcasitas on the north, excluding Ures, Mátape, and Batuc. The residence of the curate, formerly in San Miguel, is now in the real of Río Chico in the province of Ostimuri. And because there are only three diocesan priests in Sonora, the Jesuit missionaries, without neglecting their own districts, help them as much as they can by imparting the faith, performing all religious functions and turning over all tithes collected to the curate. Because I am bound to tell the truth, I must say that the Jesuits ministering in this section do it all except in the place and its immediate vicinity where the curate Florencio de Alarcón, Bachelor of Theology, resides. He does visit the closer churches occasionally, but as for the more distant parishes, he merely sends someone to gather the dues accrued through the labors of others.

Regardless of the size of these curacies, when the province was booming, not beset by enemies, all its pueblos inhabited and its mines worked with zeal and very productive, even then the province was not a large source of income for the church.
Father Juan José de Grijalva, Bachelor of Theology, informed me that the curacy he had administered for thirty years, the San Juan Bautista, had an estimated annual tithe income of two to three thousand pesos a year beyond his 2,000 pesos yearly salary. Yet he was only netting 1,000 pesos a year. To live with some degree of comfort he had to pledge the tithes to purchase a ranch.

If the San Juan Bautista Curacy, supposedly the best in Sonora, was in such shape, it seems to me that the reason for its meager income was due to the charity of this venerable curate emeritus who condoned all dues to the poor, took livestock from others in payment,
and gave nearly all the revenues to his assistants in the parishes they attend. He passed away—morte justorum—in January, 1763, and was buried in Our Lady of the Rosary Chapel in the Oposura church.

The Nacozari Curacy could be as productive as the San Juan Bautista, perhaps even more so by as much as 300 pesos a year, because the Tubac presidio has been added to it. However, because the soldiers are not paid in coin but in goods at prices set by government regulations, this possible source of income is questionable.

These curacies are under the diocese of Durango. When a vacancy occurs, its bishop submits a list of three names of persons the bishop feels are competent to serve as curate in that curacy. The vicar selects one from the list whom he deems best suited for the post. However, since the curate of Nacozari, Don Joaquín Rodríguez Rey, was murdered by Apaches in 175569 despite the military escort that accompanied him, there are few diocesan priests willing to come to these regions. At present Joaquín Félix Díaz, vicar and ecclesiastic arbiter, is serving temporarily as curate. However, the curates of San Miguel de Horcasitas and Río Chico acquire their positions only after surviving competition and receive prebends which go with the post. The first was obtained by minister Miguel de Arenívar and the second by curate Florencio de Alarcón. "

I do not read of any silver banisters, opulent surroundings, vast banquets on Holy or Feast Days, or anything else that might indicate that the three Curiates in question were anything more than dirt poor communities, barely able to sustain themselves. I have taken this opportunity to highlight one passage in red, as it seems to sum up so very well the financial state of affairs in New Spain at the time. It is here that Fr. Nentvig laments over the poverty stricken region and indirectly accuses the colonists and natives of not paying their annual tithes, which most likely did not endear him to the Spaniards. As another point of fact, Fr. Nentvig was one of the seven Jesuits who perished on the forced march during their expulsion from the New World. He was the fourth Jesuit to die and studying the writings of the period in question, it would seem plausible that the Spanish colonists exacted their revenge on those Jesuits whom they had assumed were causing them the most trouble, and who could perhaps be used as eyewitnesses against them in the future.

We may pore over the contents of this document and debate it's veracity, word by word, sentence by sentence and passage by passage, and it will not alter the content or intent of the document in question, for that which has been written, has been written.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

It's not a document, but a book. I have read the entire book. I have read several, believe it or not. I have read letters, cedulas, deroteros, and diaries. I have many, and my friends have many more. Sometimes it takes a little while to find where a specific letter makes specific statements.

I still say that you are making an assumption based on nothing but your opinions. Father Nentvig was not JUST a visitor. He was assigned to Nueva Espana, and not just a spectator from Spain.

Here are a couple of quotes from different sources about the same area in Mexico called Cananea:

How did this happen? The initial name of the city, Palmar de Vega, occurred as an offshoot to the Jesuit mission at San Luis de la Paz. San Luis was established to settle the local India tribes, collectively labeled Chichimeca's, to keep them from attacking the ore caravans on their way to Mexico City. The Jesuits were successful and started noticing a lot of silver jewelry worn by the indigenous people. When asked the source, the Jesuits were taken to an open silver vein. This eventually led, by 1576, to the establishment of the Presidio and the settlement of Palmar de Vega, the Santa Brigitta mining complex and the distinctive Jesuit smelting ovens. Mining continued for almost 200 years until the Jesuits were expelled from New Spain.

The El Alamo district has a long history of gold production. Claimed for Spain in 1535 by Cortez, Baja California was explored by the Jesuits, who built a series of missions the length of the penninsula, many of which were near mining sites worked by the Jesuit priests and the natives. The Jesuits seldom were required to answer to the Spanish crown authorities in Mexico City and did little to disclose their mining activities to the Spaniards or the amount of gold that they shipped to Rome.

Pictured below is a picture of the "Distinctive Jesuit Smelters". Funny how something that is common knowledge locally (Cananea), can be so heartily disputed elsewhere.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
No, my friend, it was not a book, the writitngs of Padre Nentvig were originally a series of letters that were gathered together collectively, translated into English, rewritten, then published in book form. And yes, Fr. Nentvig was sent to New Spain, however during his tenure, he visited all of the missions there, so he was in a fact a visitor of sorts.

That a Jesuit engineer designed a smelting oven in no way lends credence that the Jesuits themselves were overseeing mining production, or that they were stealing from the Kingdom of Spain. Th.e Jesuits were merely doing EXACTLY what they were SUPPOSED to be doing, my friend. They were helping to exploit the natural wealth of the New World while at the same time attempting to teach the natives self-suffiencency. Anyway, this is probably not the place to discuss this.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Dear gollum;
No, my friend, it was not a book, the writitngs of Padre Nentvig were originally a series of letters that were gathered together collectively, translated into English, rewritten, then published in book form. And yes, Fr. Nentvig was sent to New Spain, however during his tenure, he visited all of the missions there, so he was in a fact a visitor of sorts.

That a Jesuit engineer designed a smelting oven in no way lends credence that the Jesuits themselves were overseeing mining production, or that they were stealing from the Kingdom of Spain. Th.e Jesuits were merely doing EXACTLY what they were SUPPOSED to be doing, my friend. They were helping to exploit the natural wealth of the New World while at the same time attempting to teach the natives self-suffiencency. Anyway, this is probably not the place to discuss this.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Now Now Lamar My Friend,

You are soooooooooooooooooo mistaken! It appears that your usual dynamic research abilities have fallen short here! A quick read of the "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" by Father Polzer would lead you to a revised set of precepts and precepts that Farther Provincial Andes Xavier Garcia, and his Consultors found necessary to put forth on June 25, 1747:

Rule #4:

No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

That states very specifically that what you previously posted is wholly incorrect.

Best-Mike