Rock Engraved Treasure signs by the Peralta group,in the Superstitions

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
Yes, I know about the rules as set forth by Fr. Andres Xavier Garcia, and I also know WHY he imposed those rules. The rationale behind the rules and precepts of 1767 was to try and diffuse the steadily rising tensions between the Jesuits and the colonists. That tensions were mounting between the two factions is a well documented fact, and reference after reference from Jesuit scribes places blame squarely on the shoulders of the colonists for abuses to the natives as well a total disregard for the laws of Spain. Examples such as the one from Fr. Nentvig are now provided to highlight these accusations and are by no means rare and they are in fact quite the norm for the period in question:

"Real de la Santísima Trinidad, 28 degrees, 12 minutes latitude, 267 degrees longitude, was founded in 1754 when rich silver deposits were discovered. The mine by itself sustained the province of Ostimuri for five whole years. It is capable of producing much more than it has, but disputes, changes of ownership, and mismanagement have hindered it greatly. Indeed, it is operated wholly in opposition to the existing mining laws. Its yield by the firing process was high and by the mercury process considerably higher. It is now being worked secretly, and the returns with little effort are said to be good. There are two small mines in the vicinity also: the Santa Ana to the southeast and the Guadalupe to the southwest"

Over and over, one might read of such indiscretions, and the archives are chock full of accusations by not only the Jesuits, but from Franciscians and Dominicans as well, of all manner of indiscretions on the part of the settlers of the New World colonies. The colonists were brutal and vicious sorts as the records show and they would resort to any means to meet their ends, including levying false accusations at the missionaries, who were by far the largest stone in their shoe.

I often wonder why it's such a difficult concept for modern people to grasp. The facts in the matter are simple. The colonists were brutalizing the natives of the New World with a ferocity that paled even the most hardened soldiers of Europe. Standing between them and the natives stood the Jesuits, who did NOT answer to the local governors, rather they answered directly to the Roman Catholic church, meaning the Bishops. If they could not get satisfaction from the Bishop, they went up the chain of command, directly to the Pope. Because of their charter, approved by the Church, they were not governed by any political body, therefore they remained incorruptable.

The Royality of Spain knew what was really happening in the colonies. They couldn't help but know, however they were placed firmly between the proverbial rock and a hard place in the matter. On one hand, they had the Jesuits, who were attempting to convert and educate the natives of the colonies, and on the other, there were the settlers, who were attempting to tame a wild land and turn it into a productive member of the Kingdom.

By expelling the Jesuits from the colonies, what the Kingdom of Spain in reality did was to pave the path for the colonists to seek independence from Spain. When the King of Spain expelled the Jesuits from the colonies, what he ALSO did was to send new administators and officials to the colonies, so that the theft of minerals would cease and the abuses to the natives would stop. This did in fact happen, however, what also happened is that the settlers, seeing their illicit profits dwindle and dry up, quickly rebeled against the Crown. This took place during the period between 1810 and 1821, with the end result being that Mexico became an independent nation.

Look carefully at the leaders of the rebellious faction, my friend. They were all land owners and they all had a very good reason to want independence from the Crown. To a man, they all had a stake. These were the VERY SAME families who led to the eventual ousting of the Jesuits from the colonies some forty years prior. These were the true thieves of Spain, my friend. I simply can not fathom why this one pertinent fact is so difficult for so many people to understand. A person needn't be a rocket scientist to grasp the twin concepts of greed and treachery. This did happen. It's a very well documented fact and it can not be disputed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

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[gollum]

Her again, we agree Lamar,

While the Jesuits did much good, they were also firm believers in slavery. In fact, many Jesuits took part in the slave trade in the New World.

Even with that in mind, the Jesuits treated the Indians much better than did the Spanish. It's funny how people think the Jesuits were caught completely by surprise with the expulsion in 1767. Not so. With the suppression beginning in 1750 by Portugal and France, the writing was definitely on the wall. As well as getting advance warning from the Indians that lived near the ports. The Missions in the far North had many weeks advance warning.

None of that changes anything in my argument, and changing the subject does nothing to alter the fact that while the Jesuits were ABSOLUTELY not permitted to have anything to do with mining, they, in fact, did.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollu,
Just sit tight for a minute, my old friend. Yes, the Jesuits WERE forbidden in WRITING to have anything to do with mining, either directly or indirectly as set forth in rule #4 of the Rules and Precepts, and this is a well documented fact and as such, it can not be disputed. What CAN be disputed is to look at the DATE that the rules and precepts by Fr. Andres Xavier Garcia were written. The year the rules were written was in 1767, the very same year that the Society of Jesus was expelled from the colonies, my friend. Therefore, prior to these precepts, the Jesuits were not actually doing anything wrong, and by the time the precepts were in place, the Jesuits were already being expelled, thus rendering the precepts null and void.

I hereby state that prior to 1767, the Society of Jesus had not once been instructed, as individuals or as a Society, either verbally or in writing, by any member of the Roman Catholic Church or a governing political body, to cease and desist from all activities pertaining to the mining of precious metals, or to be knowledgeable of the same, also either verbally or in writing. Therefore, instructing the natives on the theory, techniques, methods, processes and practical applications involved in the mining of precious metals was considered to be a part of their primary directive to provide practical and scholastic instructions to the local populace.

Yes, the Jesuits acted as administrators in various mines at various times. Yes, the Jesuits were in fact accountants in various mines, also at various times. Yes, the Jesuits taught mining to the natives. They also taught animal husbandry to those very same natives, yet nobody is accusing the Jesuits of rustling cattle, so why are they being accused of illegal mining activities? Not a single one of their activities suggests that they had in any way, size, shape or form taken even the smallest nugget of silver or gold by illegal or illicit means.

Virtaually ALL of their activities in the New World colony are well documented. In fact, the ONLY thing missing is written or actual evidence that they were involved in any wrongdoing, either directly or indirectly.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

Are you certain that the date was 1767, and not 25 June 1747? Also, that was a clarification of an earlier rule that simply stated:

No one will play cards either with ours or with extern's.

No one can work at mining.

Then Came:

Rule #3. No one will play cards either with Ours or extern's. This precept extends to any of Ours betting, although only looking on at a card game being played by laymen.

Rule #4. No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

It tells me that there MUST have been a problem with Missions/Priests skirting the "intent of the law", by only reading the "letter of the law". So, if you are admitting that the Jesuits operated smelters at Cananea and elsewhere, why is it such a leap to think that they would not operate mines? Since they treated the Indios much better than the Spanish Settlers, they would be in a good position to get new vein information that the Indios would not give to the Spanish.

Also, one of the conditions in giving the Jesuits full control of Northern New Spain beginning in 1697 was a prohibition from mining or any moneymaking ventures except in that it only paid for Mission expenses. Nothing for profit was allowed. One of the reasons for converted Indians being exempt from reduction.

Now, lets take this just a small step further. Knowing how the Jesuits OBVIOUSLY had a penchant for gaming the system for their benefit, why then, would they not take Spanish who would act as Proxies for the Jesuits in the mining industry? Say, use a man who vowed loyalty to the Church and/or Order. Use him as a figurehead for mine ownership. This SAME method was used for skirting the precept for playing cards and gambling. That figurehead would take and give the greatest majority of his profits to the Jesuits (either secretly or as tithes).

See, where the Jesuits are concerned, what Rules and Precepts were intended to say weren't always the same as they were interpreted by those wishing for the Order or Themselves to profit. So even though the Jesuit agreement with Charles II in 1697 prohibited them from conducting business for profit, there was a need to first, put the precept in writing, then make it even more specific. This speaks volumes!

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
I admit to nothing, as there exists no written documentation to be able to admit anything. I never stated that the Jesuits operated smelters, merely that at various times they acted as administrators, accountants and consultants in the mining industry in the New World missions. We must always remember that the one truly unique virtue that the Jesuits possessed were their unusally high education levels. One of the conditions specified by the Society of Jesus for all of it's initiates was the requirement of at least a Bachelors degree in theological studies, however most Jesuits did not stop there.

The vast majority also held bachelors, masters and doctors degrees in all of the scientific disciplines, engineering, humanity and the arts. In short, they were extremely well educated and subsiding in an environment where merely being able to sign your own name was considered to be a major educational advancement. Therefore, they were quite naturally they posted to positions which required someone who was able to write and perform complicated mathematical equations.

The smelters are Los Pozos are a bit of a mystery, my friend. While it's generally agreed upon that they were designed by Jesuits, it's unclear WHICH Jesuit actually designed them. The reason wny it's important to know who was the actual designer is because the smelters at the Santa Brigitta mine at Los Pozos signify an advanced technological development in smelter technology.

Simply because the smelting ovens at Santa Brigitta were designed by an unknown Jesuit, or Jesuits, does NOT make them criminals! Incidentally, the photo you posted of the smelting oven are not the original ovens, rather they are contemporary reproductions of the original ovens, reproduced from original sketches and drawings.

In case you do not already know this, I shall take the time now to reiteratate exactly how the Jesuit missions were SUPPOSED to function in the New World. I spell "suppose" in capitol letters, because in truth, the missions never functioned as they were meant to. Anyhow, the Jesuit missions were funded in whole from the Royal Treasury for the first ten years of the missions' existence, after which time the mission in question was SUPPOSED to become a self-sustaining and tax-paying entity.

In other words, after ten years the Royal sustanance dried up, therefore it was of paramount importance to the Jesuit missionaries that they find some means of survival. If there happened to be precious metal ores in the vicinity, then they taught the natives how to mine. If there were ample fields of grass and fodder, they taught the natives the basics of farming and ranching, so forth and so on.

In actual truth, after the Royal sustanance disappeared, the wealthier missions had to resort to supporting the poorer missions, thus improvishing the entire mission structure in the New World. Now, let us take a moment or so to classify exactly what a mission was during the time frame in question.

A mission was, in short, a township which was overseen by the missionary administrators. That is all they were. All missions had, at the very least, a continous source of water, a church, a hospital of sorts, a school of sorts, shops, and houses for the missionaries and locals. If successful, as time passed, the mission would obtain an air of an actual town, modelled very much like villages and towns in Europe, I might add. To witness how a typical mission was laid out, one only needs to visit a small village in Mexico, Central or South America.

The center of town always has a square plaza, with the church on one side, most usually, but not always, the North side, and surrounded by shops and restraurants. As the village grows, it expands outwards from this central plaza, with more shops and homes being built outwardly.

So yes, my friend, the Jesuits DID encourage the natives to mine. Yes, they DID teach the natives how to mine. This does not make them criminals. They were only doing what the King of Spain directed them to do. Take a moment and place yourself in the sandals of a typical Jesuit missionary of New Spain, my friend. You are in a harsh, barren land with almost no annual rainfall, and there are as many as thirty THOUSAND locals living in the vicinity. Your job is build a mission which needs to be self-sustaining within the next ten years. What are you going do? Harvest rocks? Have the natives eat dirt? No. You will exploit what natural resources that are available in order that your charges may survive to adulthood, my friend. Since there was silver ore nearby, that is what the Jesuits had the natives wrest free from the ground in order that they may scratch out a living.

If there were stands of pines nearby, then rest assured the natives would have become lumberjacks. If the fields would have supported vineyards, then there would have been a bunch of natives walking around with purple stained feet. Very happy natives, I might add.:-)

As an aside, there were no Royal prohibitions stating that the Jesuits could not allow the natives mineral exploitation in order to be self-sustaining, however there were prohibitions against SETTLERS exploiting minerals for profit and this was a very early point of contention between the two factions.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

I don't doubt for a second that the Jesuits did whatever it took to sustain their missions. If I were in their shoes, I would have also done whatever it took to keep the system from failing. Even if it meant gaming the system and working out ways to benefit from the vast mineral wealth of Sonora, by adhering to the "letter of the law" if not completely ignoring the "intent of the law". Can we clarify what the meaning of "is" is? I don't hold it against them, and do not think the worse of them. I am just saying what I have always said, "That by one method or another, the Jesuits (and the Church in general) most assuredly profited from mineral wealth in Nueva Espana.

From the contemporary documentary evidence I have provided here, we have established that the Jesuit Fathers were not above gaming the system when it would benefit them, the Order, and Mother Church.

It should not be much of a leap for anybody to think that the Order believed that the Laws of God outweighed the Laws of Man, and that the gold and silver they were forbidden to mine would be put to better use by the Church than by the never ending wars of Spain.

Lamar, my friend, I know that there is no use attempting to convince you that Jesuits did indeed have a great source of mineral wealth before they were suppressed. From the things I have seen and read, I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Jesuits hid gold and silver prior to the expulsion of 1767. I personally know of two caches that were found in Southern Arizona (one of silver and one of gold). Both sources are absolutely unimpeachable, and neither finder would have had the money to fake a find of 82 pounds of gold bars or about 5000 pounds of silver bars. The gold bars were cast with the Cross and "V". The silver bars were cast with the name "PADRE SAETA 1695" with a Cross and "V", and also a Cross and "M" (we believe the "M" stands for Martìr).

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
I seem to recall seeing photographs of that supposed *cache* and if it is the same one, then I can assure you that it's completely false. The markings, while good enough to fool a casual observer, would not stand up to the light of a serious scrutiny, my friend. The shape of the bars are also totally wrong for the period in which they were supposedly cast in. Other mistakes are many and obvious. And now, for some questions for which there are no easy answers.

How was this *cache* supposed to be transported, my friend? If I am recalling my geography correctly, Arizona is landlocked and it is not close to any large body of water, such as either the Pacific or Carribean oceans. But first, how was the *cache* meant to be transported to a port of call in the first place? A burro in those days could FEASIBLY carry 100 pounds for 12 hours, however this is on a good day, on flat ground with ample sources of water and fodder along the entire route. From Arizona to the lower Baja coast would most likely mean that a 50 pound burden would be closer to the actual weight. Five thousand pounds of payload at fifty pounds per burro equals one hundred burros! And these are healthy, prime burros I am speaking of.

And of course, this equation isn't including the spare animals that one would need along the route either. For the trip to the coast, fifty spare burros would have been the norm, therefore let's say that it would have taken one hundred and fifty burros to transport the *cache* to the coast. The problem becomes apparent almost immediately, my friend. Where does one obtain one hundred and fifty burros in the middle of nowhere? perhaps if they rounded up every able bodied burro in the vicinity they may have had the required amount for the journey, but then there arises another problem.

Water! It's a well known fact that a burro, in spite of it's small stature, consumes almost as much water on a daily basis as a full grown horse. Burros, when packing a heavy load, would have needed to have been watered every day without fail in order to have any hope of them surviving the journey. They can live for several days without grazing, but without water they quickly dehydrate in the dry heat and start burning away muscle tissue, especially along the ligaments in the legs and the spine.

And who provided security for the burro train as it wended it's long, slow way to the coast? The New World was rife with raiders as is quite amply evidenced in archival documents. Even grain shipments were not safe and indeed required constant vigilance, lest it be purloined and the drivers slaughtered by rebellious natives.

Therefore, unless the padres had a string of camels in tow, or a steady supply of water along the route, there would have been no feasible way to transport a cache of that size. And, nobody whom they could depend upon to provide security along the route without arousing suspicions.

And what of the transport from the New World back to Europe? How did they manage to keep the prying eyes of the Royal pursers away? Not only would they have had to deal with the pursers whilst loading the cargo, they would have had to deal with even more Royal pursers at every port they docked in as well. A ship didn not just load it's cargo and then head straight back to Europe, my friend. From the lower Baja, a ship would make port on the backside of the isthmus of Panama, then in Peru, then two or three stops along the Atalantic side of South America, then one or two stops in the Carribean, until it made port in Hispanola and wait for the Royal fleet to form up before beginning the long journey across the Atlantic. If the ship missed the Royal fleet that year, then it waited in the docks for the next fleet to form. This could take several years. And during this time, do you suppose that NOBODY checked the contents of the holds?

And what about when the ship made port in Europe? Five thousands of silver is sort of difficult to hide from the prying eyes of dock workers no matter where a ship made landfall at. Five thousand pounds of sterling translates into several rather large wagonloads and that sort of cargo is bound to have aroused suspicion. After all, what could a bunch of Jesuits possibly have that required transport of that size? A rock collection, maybe? And who provided security in Europe for the transportation of the silver? Highway robbery was a way of life in 16th century Europe and five thousand pounds of silver would have surely had every bandit within five hundred miles of the port of call beside himself with excitement. The Kings' appointed pursers, scribes, clerks, notaries, etc, were literally crawling all over each other at the docks of Europe and the arrival of ALL ships from the New World colonies was heralded throughout the streets of Cadiz and other ports of call, so rare occurances that these were. Sugar, tobacco, coffee, spices, chocolate and all manner of other exotic goods would bring the commoners racing to the docks, my friend.

If you have not done so already, I would suggest that you read about Fr. Kinos' narrative as to his journey TO the new World, my friend. As I recall, it took him TWO YEARS to find passage aboard a ship, then it struck a sandbar and was grounded. It then took him another SIX MONTHS to find another ship to take him to the colonies. After a four month voyage, he travelled to Mexico City where he waited for an additional TWO YEARS before being assigned to the New Spain missions.

Once you remove yourself from this time period and place yourself in the time period in quesion, the problems which would quite easily be solved today with the rental of a U-Haul truck dissolve when you are in the 1650s and you are faced with one seemingly insurmountable problem after another.

And now, for the icing on the cake. All of this needed to be done in TOTAL SECRECY! That some five thousand pounds of silver needed to be mined, then refined, then ingoted, then transported to the coast, then placed aboard ship, then slipped through port after port, then arrived in Europe, offloaded, then transported to parts unknown under heavy guard, all without arousing suspicion would have been impossible, my friend.

And here is the capper. Let's suppose that the Jesuits realized the possibility of having the cargo checked was very real, both in port and at sea, so what did they do? Why, they put their NAMES on the bars!!! Great idea! This way, if a casual observer happened to see the bars, then he could inform the authorities and they would know EXACTLY whom to arrest! Even though we may safely assume that people in the 16th century were not as intelligent as we are today, I seriously doubt that anyone would be THAT stupid, my friend! Theft from the Royal Treasury was a guaranteed trip to the gallows, yet the Jesuits in question either seemed to be unaware of this small fact, or else they were completely unfazed by the possibility of death by hanging if they were aware of the penalty. No, it did not happen that way, my friend.

So, looking at the big picture, I may state conclusively that, no, it did not happen, even though it would seem like a very nice adventerous yarn if it had occurred. And, if one does not take into consideration the magnitude of the logistics involved in such a theft, theft it might become plausible.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
Lets us suppose for just a moment that the treasures which were supposedly recovered were real. You stated that the sources were unimpeachable. OK, I'll give you that much. So, what happened to the treasures, my friend? I've heard of no recovered Jesuit treasure troves. Are they in a musuem on display somewhere? Or, were they quietly sold on the black market? Please, for the sake of clarity, tell me once more how *unimpeachable* your source is, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Without a doubt UNIMPEACHABLE!

Sold quietly as far as I know. Don't know the details of the sale (name, location), other than to say all 82 pounds (except for one bar each was kept by the finders) was sold. I don't know the fates of the bars, whether they were melted or resold to private collectors.

As for the silver, I have no idea either. Only that it was recovered. I have verification of two different people for this one as well.

The finder of the silver passed away almost ten years ago, and the finder of the gold is still around.

There will be a retelling of the gold story in the near future.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Hey Lamar,

I am still waiting for an answer to my question regarding the date you quote for the precept?

I say it was issued 25 June 1747, and you say 1767. Do you mean it was decreed on 25 June 1767?

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

I just checked my notes, and my assumption of Five Pounds each for the silver bars was mistaken (you know what happens when you assume). They weighed a little over 2 pounds each, and there was a little over 1000 bars.

You go on and on talking about burros, but I think they would have more likely used Mules. Most missions had mules, and they had a MUCH greater loading capacity. Here is a quote:

Mules could go twenty-four hours without water when they had a light load of under 300 pounds.(That is from the US History Encyclopedia)

As a general rule of thumb, I have seen between 20 and 30 % of a mules weight should be used. That would mean anything, as mule weight ranges from 600 to 1400 pounds (mostly dependent on the father's size).

You might also want to check Father Pfefferkorn's writings as he talks about Mules that can carry (translated) up to 500 pounds.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dearf gollum;
I think you are overlooking one pertinent point, my point. Burros are a species whereas mules are a hybred, which means that one mule can not breed with another mule and produce offspring. This is no longer true as there have recently been several instances of pairs of hybred mules producing living offspring, but this has been only within the last twenty years, so that fact was not true in the 16th century.

Since mules required been bred, therefore they were a much more rare sight in the New World than were burros my friend. Mules, being related to the horse, required more care and attention than burros, therefore there were far fewer mules than there were burros. Also, as another pertinent point, burros were cheap to the point of being free, whereas a good mule was generally worth more than the horse that it was crossed with.

The point of whether they used mules or burros is moot however when you look at the big picture. They could have used Ford trucks to transport the ore to the coast and they would still have had to overcome an entire of obstacles in their path. How did they manage to do all this?

I am sorry. The date of the document was in 1747. I am unsure of the actual date on the document however June 25th seems plausible, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
Unimpeachable? Hardly, my old friend. If what you say happened is true, then what your *unimpeachable* source did was to effectively destroy a VERY pertinent part of history, and it seems like it done for the sake of financial gain. That the person in question possessed something that very well could have altered our perception of history, instead chose to line their own pockets does not describe a person who is unimpeachable.

Rather, these types of people are thieves who think only of themself. I place people of this ilk in the same class as the ones who remove native stone carvings from the walls of cliffs, to be sold on the black market, all in the name of profit, or grave robbers. It makes me sick to think that there are people of this nature roaming about freely.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

AAAAAHHHHH! There's the Lamar I was looking to find! So, I take it you are an archaeologist? Historian? Maybe a Loyola Grad?

Regardless of what you or I may think of those people, the fact still exists that those caches were real, and those caches had Church Affiliations. Nothing that you or I say or do is going to change that fact. Just like in the late 1950s, an old Treasure Hunter named Frank Fish looked for and found a Wells Fargo Strongbox containing about $12,000 face value in gold coins, a few gold bars, two Colt Navy Revolvers, and a Sharps Carbine Rifle. Should he have reported the find to Wells Fargo, as it was a recovered stage robbery cache? Maybe so, but that does not alter the fact that the cache was real.

Ask Tayopa about meeting two Jesuits in the mountains of Sonora. For arguments sake, let's say that Tayopa is a real Jesuit Treasure. All that gold and silver is really buried under a mountain in Mexico. Do you think that if someone found it, that the church would not claim it as its' own (as Father Polzer SJ tried to do)? How much of that do you think the Church would share with the person who spent so many years of their life searching for it? Not much I think.

People like you, who consider Indian Pot and Point Hunters as thieves, almost always seem to have the nicest collections of pots and points. While I would always advise anybody who finds something of value to go about recovering it legally, there are a few cases extant of Uncle Sam screwing over people who have tried to go about things the right way. This could get into a discussion about British versus American Treasure Trove Laws, but that is for another thread.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
I have no collection of either pots or arrowheads. My father had one of the largest, most diversified arrowhead collections from South Texas, however he donated the entire lot to the local museum. Be that as it may, recovering an item of historical value, then selling it on the black market is wrong. There is no justification for it, it's just wrong. It's immoral AND illegal! I've been asked before what would I do if I were faced with the same temptations, and in truth I've already been faced with those temptations more than once and I've always done the right thing. My reasons for doing what I've done are my own, but let's just say that I'd rather spend my life regretting have done the right thing than to spend it regretting having done the wrong thing. I sleep better at night.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

I hear you Lamar. Fortunately, I have enough contacts to where I could more easily navigate the treacherous waters of the Treasure Trove Permitting Process. There are other people who don't have some of the things I do, as far as contacts and knowledge of how to wade through paperwork. I don't share your low regard of them, though.

With some things I am doing now, I will hopefully be able to share some of that information with everybody.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
Strictly as an aside, it seems that ONLY hard evidence which could have possibly linked the Society of Jesus to illegal mining activities in the New World has up and vanished into thin air, just like every other piece of supposed evidence thus far. Odd, wouldn't YOU say? In all seriousness, with as much circumstantial evidence floating about, and with as many *unimpeachable witnesses* around, shouldn't there be SOMETHING documented that proves the Jesuits were involved in illegal mining? It seems that all of the known conspirators have quite convenently passed away and therefore cannot be questioned about their supposed involvement.

That Fr. Polzer supposedly claimed a non-existent mine for the Catholic church is not only funny, it's hilarious, once a minimal amount of common sense had been employed. Even if the mine did actually exist, which it didn't, how can someone lay claim to it for an entity which had no knoweldge of it's existence in the first place and not having a single scrap of paper which gave the mine to the Jesuits from the King of Spain? Surely, someone with Fr. Polzers' level of education would be able to see the futility in this exercise. Why do people insist on believing in something which simply did not happen? In order to make a legal claim, there needs to be legal documentation submitted to the approriate court. There is no legal documentation, therefore it did not happen.

And what about those two *Jesuits* who were supposedly poking around in the region where Tayopa supposedly exists? How does anyone know they were Jesuits? As far as I am aware, the Society of Jesus has never issued ID cards, therefore can one be certain that the people in question were actually Jesuits without seeing an official identification and comparing the name to the rolls of Jesuits? And what if they actually were Jesuits? Are they not allowed to visit Mexico and southern Arizona simply because of their religious Order? I've been to Mexico and southern Arizona many times and I could have stated that I was the Pope.

Let's sum up. Nobody will speak on the record. Nobody will write a statement. Everybody and his brother has viewed Jesuit documents, maps, code books, etc, yet nobody will stand up and set the record straight. Highly placed Church officials are privy to the events which took place some three hundred and fifty years ago, yet nobody is willing to come forth with the evidence to support the claims, even though what happened that far in the past can not possibly do any damage to the either the Jesuit Order or the Roman Catholic church. It would seem that there are hundreds, if not thousands of people who hold actual documented proof, or have direct access to actual documented proof, yet to a man, they all remain silent as the proverbial tomb? I don't buy it. There are far too many people on the street who wish to see the record set straight for something like this to remain silent for this length of time. I am one of those people. If I had evidence in hand linking the Jesuits to illegal mining in the New World, rest assured that I would have absolutely NO compunction about telling the world of this fact.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

Guess what? There is no such thing as the Mafia either! Just ask them. They'll tell you.

When people do highly illegal things, they do everything in their powers to keep those activities hidden. Do you seriously that if the Jesuit Order could keep their involvement in the Slave Trade a secret, they would openly admit to it? Of course not. They have been able to keep the mining more or less a secret because there was no REAL paper trail. Why is there no real paper trail for mining but there is one for slavery? Because at the time, mining for the Jesuits was illegal, and slavery was not.

Say what you will my friend. I trust my sources on the caches 100%. There are several more I know of that I either don't know the people involved, or don't know anyone who knows the people involved. Those stories are possibilities, but I would not personally vouch for their veracity.

I know nothing will convince you, but I have given up on that. You, my friend, are a lost cause!

Best-Mike

 

[Leones Corazon]

Mike...unless you have more pressing matters to attend to....
Your efforts might be better served elsewhere.
Silent lucidity....yelling at a dog...same thing....waste of time.
Only a hand full of us will ever truely be lucky enough to view the
truth....but that takes years of hard work....and a lot of luck...and
most importantly....an open mind.....

Your Friend, DW

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
The example you've attempted to provide simply will not work, my friend. We KNOW the Mafia exists, we have librarys full of first hand accountants, surveillance audio and videos tapes, photographs, eyewitness statements, etc. The dealings of the Mafia are VERY well known and this is about an organization which has not been in existence for nearly the same length of time as the Jesuits.

The Mafia, as an organization, is a LOT smaller and more secretive than the Jesuits are, yet there are literally TONS of documents archived and filed neatly away, detailing the most intimate facts about their nefarious existence. And these members of the Mob wield the weapons of terror and fear as a major part of their arsenals to keep other silents about their illegal activities.

Even with the threat of death or mayhem, there esists one of thousands of pages of documents as actual physical proof of the existence of the Mafia, and this organization is tiny in size and structure when compared to the Society of Jesus and it has not been in existence for nearly as long a period.

And therein lies the difference, my friend. You are trying to compare apples to oranges, ie, you are attempting to prove a wild conspiracy theory by using a very well known and very well documented criminal organization as an example of this theory. This simply will not work as there are no comparisons which can be drawn between these two organizations.

So, basically what you are attempting to state is that, by person(s) unknown, there lies a huge conspiracy which has been a closely guarded secret, known by a great many people, for the last FIVE HUNDRED YEARS and yet nobody, and I mean NOBODY has had the moral turpitude to step forth and expose the conspiracy for what it is?

Nope, I don't believe that for a second, my friend. History has shown to us, again and again, that there exists far more good people than bad, and that if any wrongdoing had transpired, then the truth of the deed(s) would have been exposed to the general public long ago. All it takes is ONE upstanding person to bring a document to light and expose the entire farce for what it is, however nobody has done this.

There exists only TWO possible explantions for this very strange event. The first explanation would be that the Society of Jesus has successfully somehow managaed to keep everybody with any knowledge of the event(s) silent, and the second would be that the event(s) never occurred.

Common sense points to the most simple possibility and that is the gist of it. There is no documented proof, therefore the event(s) never occurred, therefore it's naught but another conspiracy theory.
Your friend;
LAMAR