Jesuit map in a cave at Tayopa

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

K guys, try this one for size. This is an actual Jesuit map in a shallow cave on the entrance to the Tayopa canyon complex. The colors are just as they were when the Jesuits left according to the local Indians. There is bit of a question if they were an overwrite of the white Indian markings, or they could have been earlier Jesuit markings.

p.s. that is my associate, not me, I am Purty! hehehe

Jose de La Mancha (tilting windmills)

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[bustit]

Well you have a great find, After lookign over your pic i belive that it is Indian. I also belive that this is not a treasure map, and there is nothign to be found here except maybe some artefacts left behind by mistake. What your wil most likley find is bones from animals. Im also willing to bet that where this is at the sun shines vivid in that area. As with all finds with out being there it is hard to tell what you have. So here we go, the flower thing is actualy the sun, meaning "happiness" to the right of that and a little up is a rian cloud meaining " Good Prospects" right below that is a figure of a man representing the subject. to the right of him is a circle with a line through it menaing " 1 day " to the right of that a thunder bird ( mistaken as a cross, indians dident use crosses) meaning "unlimited happiness" to the right of that a snake meaning "strength"

Now its a little fuzzy because i cant get close to the find.

Starting form the left the circle ( looks like a propeller int he middle ) means " ages / long time " I cant make out exactly what the middle means but it seems to be a decription of a long journy to a certim place. The very bottom depicts a place of great hunting. Many birds / fish / large animal. The way the man is drawen on the bottom shows mean a hunting stance meaning " quiet, such as stalking.

so it means tthis place was a place where they gathered to build up the moralof the hunters, before there journy to the hunting grounds. Here they would get strength and get ready for the hunt.

Some tribs made the stories go form the bottom up, if this is one then it would mean a place where they hunt then travel on long journy to reach a this place of great happiness and good prospects.

Im no expert just a theroy

 

[yurt_boy]

What an awesome find!!!! I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with Bustit's opinions on a few points. I'm Southern Cherokee and Comanche, so I know first hand how symbolism changes drastically from tribe to tribe. Just as an example, to the Cherokee, the Owl is a holy symbol, filled with luck. To the Navajo, however, the Owl is a dreaded omen of pending death. I think it's important to not just lump all natives into the "Indian" category. Each nation, tribe, band, clan and family has their own little take on things.

The crosses, in my opinion, look like crosses. The large, predominant one looks to me like nothing other than a cross, with the flared ends and all. The smaller one at mid-left reminds me of the ornate globes, topped with a cross, that you see on Catholic hats/staffs/etc.

Some tribes did put crosses in their petroglyphs, if they had been exposed to Christianity. In many cases, tribes which had been subjugated by Catholic missions, the Indians would adopt Christian symbols while secretly assigning to them traditional Indian meanings. In this way, they could continue to worship how they wanted, but to Spanish/Italian eyes, it looked like they had converted to Christianity.

I would point out that in Utah, they are starting to realize that some (not all) of the snake petroglyphs and pictographs superimpose nicely over nearby rivers, suggesting they are not just snakes, but maps as well.

The geometric design toward the bottom is, again in my opinion, some type of code, otherwise it would be uniform in nature and not so "random" in appearance. I always try to remember how hard and time consuming it must have been to chip away for hours or days at a time to create an elaborate petroglyph. Obviously, they must have significant meaning. What I'm trying to say is I doubt any petroglyph was meant simply as decoration. When I see this geometric design, it smacks of decoration (albeit intentionally "imperfect"), which makes me think 1) non-aboriginal, and 2) coded.

What is also very interesting to me is the stone face the "authors" put the message on. It's a near-perfect triangle. May mean nothing at all. I don't know. Could be a "pointer" or could have simply been chosen for its aesthetic value.

Lastly, I noticed that the bird designs are VERY similar to ones I've seen in Garden Canyon in the Huachuca Mountains of So. AZ. Archaeologists say those are Anasazi or Apache. They're probably right, but there was a LOT of Jesuit activity in the area. The mountains have several Spanish mines, and lay right between two of Father Eusebio Kino's missions.

Again, I don't mean any disrespect to Bustit's view. This is just my opinion. Good luck!!!!!

 

[bustit]

Sorry dident mean to offend anyone by lumping all Indians as one. I know very little about Indian petroglyphs /symboles, I work with a guy who said he had a little knowldege with finds like this, and he was looking at the picture and coming up with ideas, so i thought I would give it a shot. I think I shouldy study more Thanks for the info though I will keep it in mind if i do come across somethign like this.

 

[yurt_boy]

No offense whatsoever, brother. I got offended when my last boss called me a "F&$%ing gut-eater!" (not even sure what that means) I got offended in the Army when I got Article 15'd for not going to Christmas Mass. But nothing you said even comes close to being offensive. I for one am always learning about other cultures, so it's sure as hell not offensive when someone learns about mine. Refreshing, actually.

 

[lates]

RealdeTayopa

Measure off 75 feet at the compass point of 45 degrees from the symbols and dig.......Matt

 

[Parangjim]

yurt_boy,
not sure what a gut eater is?
I am also part Cherokee, part Shawnee and this is not part of our heritage, but many plains tribes had great eating contests where bison intestines were cooked over an open fire until crisp. Then a knife(or arrow) would be stuck through the mid point and two men would start eating at opposite ends. Whoever got to the center first was the winner.
Sometimes great eaters would give the other guy an advantage by placing the knife/arrow closer to him. Wagers were anywhere from bragging rights to horses to women, or others.
You might ask comanchero. Better yet ask Sasquatch I bet he's eaten enough guts in his day.
jim

 

[Tigr50]

Neat rock!
I wondered about something...it looks like the rocks around it are mortared together, like you would mortar stones together to make a wall. Is that just an illusion? Then the rock might be some kind of seal, like a door? I know photos are tricky and so would be removing this "seal," I suspect.
Good luck
Tigr50

 

[JACKOJohn Stanwix]

Realde Tayopa --- The rocks (stones) look to be from a different area. I believe like Tigr50 that something might be behind the stones.


YURT BOY--- Hey when were you in The Huachuca's, I live two miles east of Ash canyon. I have found a treasure site there, but don't have time to work it cause I am working one bigger.

Jacko

 

[yurt_boy]

Hey Jacko! Small world! We're living in Mesa right now, but have property on the Babocomari between Whetstone and Tombstone. We're down there once or twice a month. We should hook up some time.

 

[JACKOJohn Stanwix]

Yurt Boy --Sounds good to me. I am retired so my time is open. Come on down and I'll show you my Spanish site in Huachuca Mtn.s


Jacko

 

[yurt_boy]

Right on Jacko! I'll PM or email you when I know for sure when our next foray south will be. Looking forward to it.

 

[JACKOJohn Stanwix]

YURT BOY-- Sounds Good

Jacko

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[quote author=JACKO ? YURT BOY--? Sounds Good

? ? ? ? ? ? Jacko


HOLA GUYS: am in Tucson right now. Making like a vampire on the VA blood bank, hehehhe.

p.s. itty bitty part Mohican from yeah many gen back due to the Evangelists being run out of Canada, and it WAS a very cold winter.. sides, according to records, she was cute! -yep, French/Irish etc., etc.

Jose de La Mancha

 

[JACKOJohn Stanwix]

Realde Tayopa -- What Part of AZ ya from


Jacko

 

[Rich]

Jesuitz missions were to poor and poorly defended and raided so often I doubt there would be anything left,Even the English prayed apon thier own God's sacared spots,but since im not near those places ill leave that bit of history for whoever.......



For the people who dont know abit of the history/heritage of The once great "Red Skin Nations,also no offense to others -my bloodline is a mix of 2 great N.E. tribes and German Palintine Settlers circa 1710 -assimulated overtime -im sure some will get what im sayin....lol,....
But"-in the past before the Every part of a animal was used when killed and etc,no waste.......even the ball sacz were used as pouchs or water containers,a great respect for the earth and how to use things.......survival.....

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[
Is it just me....or has Realde Tayopa's language skills improved dramatically lately?? I remember when he first started posting....and he couldn't quite get the language barrier goin on.....hmmmmm

Just a thought.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A) HI JUDY, nah, just invested in a new $2 keyboard. heheheheh

Jose de La Mancha (I tilt windmills)

p.s. thanks for reading my posts.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HOLA PEEPS, LA JUDY GAL:

I am in Tucson at the moment and have no access to a scanner, or I would post another picture. The posted one is facing away from the area that it shows. The "V"'s actually are a primative way of showing contours in the fronting canyon of Tayopa complex. There is no other way to show it since it is soo broken up.

The main canyon has a side canyon which splits to the left, continues ahead, then splits ot the right, The actual Tayopa canyon, it then continues on to where it splits again until it reaches the crest of the Sierra.

Jose de La mancha ( I tilt windmills)

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

[Realde.........looks like it was a good $2 investment.? ?::

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

H JUDY: hmm gracias, I think? hehhheehheheh

Jose de La Mancha ( I tilt windmills )

 

[JACKOJohn Stanwix]

Jose--- How long you in Tucson There's a new area i'd like to check out if you have time. It's very close to nogalos.


Jacko