The Lost Dutchman Gold Mne has bben found

[Seventytwo]

I read a book last night called The Lost Dutchman Lies, I found it at a www.finderskeepers.cc. in it the guy was hunting the Ted Degrazia painting that are buried in the Superstition Mountains of Arizona but instead they found the Dutchman mine.
They say that all of the maps are made with topo lines and have very compeling evedance, to support this theory.
They also brake the Peralta stones and it would seem that they go to the mine.
But the worst part is that the mine is a hoax.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[audigger53]

Hoax?
Depends on which of the storys/lies that you hear and read about. Waltz stated that he and his dead partner had started sinking a shaft on a low grade deposit when he went to Queen Creek for supplies. He later went back and buried his partner at the diggings and covered it up. shaft = a mine, just not rich.

All of the writer's, so called experts', I have heard about, are writing books to make money off of you. Why should they tell the whole truth and not sell the book? Waltz home steaded just outside of Phoenix, home stead, not bought with gold. Waltz was buried in a pauper's grave, no money or gold for a funeral.

Peralta gold? Massacure or Skeleton Canyon (goes by both names) was where the two trenches were found just after WWII. At that time the find had a value of $26 Million. I read a reprint of it in the winter of 63-64 while the murder was in the headlines of the Arizona Republic. I remember because first they took out Treasure Trove Tax at 50%, and then went after Income Tax at 98% for the rest! He found $26 million in gold and walked away with $260,000 after taxes.
That's why you don't brag to the papers.

 

[JakeW]

Sorry my gold has not been found...

 

[Seventytwo]

Jake, that is because there was no gold to be found. The maps have clearly been broke and the mine itself is now found.

 

[Dirtfishin]

There are many books and stories on the Lost Dutchman Mine.? ?I know I was intrigued with it when I lived out there.? It's a wonderful treasure story.? I would love to hear more on the discovery where they it was worth 26 m.

There were 18 "Lost" Peralta mines of which the "Dutchman" was claimed to be one of, also, I have heard that people have confused the story to the point that some think that the Dutchman, was in the Black Hills in Cave Creek and not actually in the Superstitions (which the name was changed due to all the fables?)? I have hiked around (for exercise) both in the Supers and up in Cave Creek, and I know there are lots of mines in Cave Creek that are still being worked to this day.?

I love treasure stories and it makes my day go by faster...? (boring job, but have computer access)

Thanks for sharin'
Kat

OK so I was off... it might be on the reservation in the Red Mountains, Off Limits Sorry!
Check out this link though... this sounds like a good read

http://www.sombreromines.com/qfg/default.asp

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,
This is one I have done a lot of research on and even spent time hunting for. The claims of folks who say they have found it but it is not a mine etc are strong evidence they never found the actual mine of Jacob Waltz. I have seen the actual ore, and there are records of ore shipments (difficult to trace, but railroad companies do keep records) Waltz existed etc as can be proven through documents including his naturalization. (Became a US citizen.) Waltz made enough in a relatively short period to support himself for the rest of his life, including rather large gifts of money to friends, and had a box full under his bed at his death. This ore is unlike any other known, and ores are like fingerprints in that each is quite different from others and an experienced assayer can even identify what mines produced what ores on sight. Waltz has been accused of being a high-grader while working at the Vulture mine (which had similar ore, but still different) even though Waltz never worked there and only passed through the region; having murdered the Peraltas, even though the Peraltas cannot be proven to have existed in Arizona and many other dark acts but some things are certain - he had a source of incredibly rich ore in the Superstition mountains, mined and sold some of it to support himself, and tried to tell two friends how to find the mine.

One thing which would pretty much disprove any claim to have found the mine (or the shaft of the mine) is not to have brought out any of the ore. One man has actually brought out ore a few years ago which was identical to Waltz's ore, though he died! A second thing which would tend to disprove any claim of finding the mine is that they found a shaft or open tunnel - since it is known that Waltz closed up the entrance of his mine, laid in ironwood logs and something like six feet of earth and rocks. He bragged that you could march an army pack train over the entrance of his mine and not know it! So if anyone is ever going to find it, they must DIG and some serious digging at that!

There are a number of old mine shafts and drifts (tunnels) scattered through the Superstiition mountains, some of which could be old Spanish or Mexican workings, some are undoubtedly the work of modern Lost Dutchman hunters. I have found some of these myself, and they are nothing more than exploratory shafts and tunnels - some have a showing of quartz or black sand that probably enticed the men into digging there in the first place but have no ore worth mining. None of these old workings has any sign that anyone ever tried to hide them in any way, which also says they are not the mine of Waltz.

There is also a level of the old "sour grapes" attitude among some who have searched for the Lost Dutchman mine - sort of "if I didn't find it, then it never existed" well this is a self defeating attitude; this is one of the best hidden mines in history, but it CAN be found (it has on several occasions) but it takes a lot of searching and work with a pick and shovel.

If you prefer to believe that it was all a pack of lies and exaggerations - great, then you and I won't be tripping over each other in that desert standing on end! (haha) Got to get more coffee, this whole subject gets me thinking of making another run at it...
Roy

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal

 

[don Lupe]

Not so..Camped with Frank Dobbie in Superstitions way back. He was flying Hilocopter searching.. Finally gave up...Offered me his maps..idiot I was, didn't except..I had been hied by 'Sprekles' heir as field geologist..Consider; mine has another name..not in this area at all..but between Copper districts.. It is a gold inriched pocket as expected in Copper veining..another mounton, another peak formation..most likely to be discoverd accidently..Rumers are, local indians still mine it...

 

[Albert Osborn]

I can't say that Waltz never had some kind of a mine, but Waltz was a
KGC operative who was hiding gold, not digging it. I'm a map dowser
and I have tracked Waltz in several states. Check Waltz's credentials.

Howos

 

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,
I am a fan of Dobie, his stuff is always a good read. Never heard of Waltz being a KGC operative, in fact the evidence seems to point to his once being a member of Union state militia. (CA, one rumor) There is a "tale" of Waltz having met and worked for the Peraltas, one of the reasons why he was "hired" being that he had been a soldier in the Confederate army - however I have never found any evidence that Jacob enlisted or was drafted for the CSA. He was too old even for most state militias in any case at the time of the Civil War. His travels took him from NYC to CA and ended up in AZ, and it is strange that he would "take up" with known Unionist camps in the Prescott area if he were even a southern sympathizer.

Jacob Waltz was born in 1808 in Oberschwandorf Germany (so would have been 53 years old!!! at the outbreak of the Civil war in 1861, 57 by 1865), he arrived in the US probably in 1839 (most sources say he arrived in 1846 with his whole family, but records show he arrived sooner) and soon headed for the gold fields of the Carolinas and Georgia, where he had little luck. By 1848 he had made it to Natchez Mississippi where he filed a petition for citizenship, but the petition was not granted at the time, and Waltz got wind of the big gold strike in California in 1849 he set off for the golden state. It is not known for certain how he got to CA but he is documented as working at various gold mines in the 1850's there. In 1861he again applied for citizenship (which would allow him to file claims in his own name) in Los Angeles and this time it was accepted, and he headed for the gold fields of the Bradshaws in Arizona territory. There are a number of documents signed by Waltz during the period of the Civil War, which do not allow enough time for him to have served in any military unit, and Waltz never left Arizona after having arrived there. In 1868 Waltz moved to the Salt River area (near Phoenix) where he farmed in a small way and occasionally hired out as a worker. His wanderlust never extinguished and he made frequent prospecting trips, going off into the un-promising Superstition mountains where wild Apaches were still very real and a white prospector could die very quickly or very slowly. He had someone in Florence build him a small drywasher, which he then took on his expeditions. The best guess as to when he discovered his mine is sometime between 1872 and 1877 - witnesses saw him pay for goods he purchased using gold with white quartz still attached. He wrote to a relative (Jacob Weiser) to come and help him work his mine, and the other Jacob arrived. The two men worked the mine for a while, until Apaches attacked while Waltz was away obtaining supplies and severely wounded Weiser. Waltz came back to find the mine had been attacked, no sign of his relative but a bloody shirt and assumed the worst. (Weiser had in fact escaped to reach a ranch eventually, where he was treated but died of his wounds later.)

His age was catching up with him however and he decided to retire and live on his farm, using the gold to pay his way. He laid in ironwood logs into the mine entrance, filling in with dirt and rocks, so that "you could march an army over the mine and never see it". He befriended Julia Thomas and Reiny Petrasch in Phoenix, and helped Julia financially. Waltz tried to explain to Julia and Reiny (a boy at the time) how to get to his mine, but they did not understand his directions. He once attempted to take them to the mine himself, but his age and poor health caused him to give up before they ever reached the mine. Jacob Waltz died on Sunday morning October 21, 1891. After his death, a shoe box full of incredibly rich ore (and quite unlike ore from any other known mine, an important point for those who claim he was simply highgrading from the Vulture mine) was found under his bed. The rest, as they say, is history - and the two conflicting versions of how to get to the mine have been points of contention ever since.

As for those rumors of Indians still working the mine - gosh I have never seen an Indian in the Superstitions, or for that matter in many remote areas. Not sure where this rumor keeps cropping up really, unless from someone who really likes the romantic idea of wild Apaches still holding out in the wilds. You will see a lot of people wandering around in the Superstitions, including some pretty bizarre individuals - but no wild Indians secretly mining a gold vein. Of course it is fun to think that there might be Indians hiding out there, but...

There are lots of "rumors" floating around out there, but careful research filters out most of them. For those who prefer to be the "skeptic" and disbelieve everything about it, you are welcome to your belief or rather disbelief - for you Dutch-hunters, a photo of some of the gold known to have come from Jacob's secret mine...see attachment


Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hello again,
I am a fan of Dobie, his stuff is always a good read.?
~~~~~~

A) HOLA ORO BLANCO, Dobie's map of Tayopa in Apache Gold & Yaqui silver is almost 98% correct. He did use a bit of literary license on the story of Tayopa as I found out. Still I enjoy his works and reread them often.

When am I going to be able to read some of yours?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After his death, a shoe box full of incredibly rich ore (and quite unlike ore from any other known mine, an important point for those who claim he was simply highgrading from the Vulture mine) was found under his bed.?
~~~~~

A) You are quite correct on differences of ore.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As for those rumors of Indians still working the mine - gosh I have never seen an Indian in the Superstitions, or for that matter in many remote areas.? Not sure where this rumor keeps cropping up really, unless from someone who really likes the romantic idea of wild Apaches still holding out in the wilds.? You will see a lot of people wandering around in the Superstitions, including some pretty bizarre individuals - but no wild Indians secretly mining a gold vein.? Of course it is fun to think that there might be Indians hiding out there, but...
~~~~~

A) I am in complete agreement, those stories are still common in the remote Sierras of North Western Mexico also.
The truth is that My Legal surveyor of Tayopa is a full blooded Apache. He knows about mines and $$$.
If he had any secret knowledge of such, he would be off like a shot, since being a mining surveyor is not conductive to buying a Mercedes or living "the Puro vida". heheheh.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Side note, if any Indians were working a secret mine they would still have to sell the ore, concentrates or bars. In short order it would not longer be secret. People TALK! - also explanations have to be made of expenditures of money or sales of Gold. Drug thingie you know.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca




Till Eulenspeigle - Jose de La Mancha

 

[Albert Osborn]

Hello, According to a friend of mine, if you show up in a certain area
of the Superstitions, you will be visted by someone-in his case it was
by a helicopter. Does that start your mind to twirling?
Howso

 

[djui5]

Oroblanco,
Is that Bob Corbins gold? Where did he get it?

 

[Oroblanco]

Yes that is Bob Corbin's gold, as I understand it is among the very few pieces known to exist remaining from what was in Jacob Waltz' shoebox at his death. Sure wish I had a few tons of it! (haha)
Oroblanco

"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

 

[djui5]

wow, I didn't know he had some of the gold from that box..

thanks!

 

[gollum]

The whole thing about Apache guarding the mine comes from the fact that the story starts before Jacob Waltz, and before the Peraltas. There was a place in this area that the walls were almost entirely sheathed in gold, and gold nuggets lay on the floor of the cave everywhere. It was such an amazing sight that the Apache made it a holy place. The story goes that to gain entrance, you had to pass by two rattlesnakes at the entrance. If you weren't a good person, they would kill you. Enough ghost stories. It is a fact that the Apache consider this area sacred. They supposedly still guard it to this day.

A quick story; A writer who is Dutchman possessed, goes into this area occasionally to follow up on new leads, and see if he can find anything. He alway gets his hackles up (the hairs on the back of his neck) while in the area around Blacktop. He thinks he has seen Apache from time to time, but dismisses the sightings as tricks of light or shadows. He goes by himself and sets up tripwire flares for dangerous critters (two and four legged). One night, he heard something outside his tent. very faint, but moving. Figured it was a coyote and went back to sleep. The next morning he found a single tennis shoe track in the dirt right outside the flap of his tent. No more, just one. He thought it was their subtle way of saying "We are watching."

Now AUDIGGER53 and SEVENTYTWO,

Wells Fargo, Butterfield Stage, and US Assayers Office records show that Jacob Waltz shipped $254K worth of gold between 1881 and 1889. Local bank records show that he sent over $200K to his family in Germany (remember, he had a family there) during that same time. He supported a couple of friends locally for many years, even buying an Ice Cream Parlor for one (Julia Thomas). Doesn't sound like the murderous hermit everyone has heard about does it?

There was most definately a rich gold mine there at one time. There is an old video from about 1975 floating around on Ebay that I bought a copy of that documents four trips into the Sups in 1960, 62, 70, and 74. I'll give you a spoiler, their maps lead them to Blacktop. On blacktop, there are two symbols that supposedly mark the ridgline above Waltz' Mine. The area under these marks is in the shadow of Weaver's Needle in mid-afternoon. Just like the description says! Never found the shaft though, as at the time most all of Blacktop was under claim by someone.

Mike