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Thread: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

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  1. #1
    us
    Oct 2010
    38
    7 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    I have attached an assay report of Letha, Ova Noss's granddaughter. Letha, was the closest to Doc Noss, she shadowed his every move and was the most aware of details pertaining to the Victorio Peak and the Caballo Mountains. She personally witnessed over 200 gold bars that Doc brought out of the Peak. Part of her job was to research and have translated documents he pulled out of the Peak because they were written in Spanish. Some other jobs he tasked her with were assays of gold bullion he brought up from the Peak. Below is an assay from 1939
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    us
    Oct 2010
    38
    7 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Here is a small cross from Victorio Peak. Gollum (Mike), you may just know a thing or two about Kino. I saw your website tell me what you can sir.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  3. #3
    Charter Member
    om
    Jan 2006
    SoCal
    Modded SD2000 / Fisher FX-3 / Fisher Gemini / Schiebel MIMID
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    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Hey Alex,

    That looks like a silver tribute crucifix.

    Lots of silver bars bear Padre Eusebio Francisco Kino SJ's name, and many people think they were his or that he made them. Not true. Padre Kino was a firm believer in personal modesty and personal poverty. He would never have been so tacky as to put his own name on anything. It is likely made as a tribute to him.

    1. The cross over the circle would have denoted a Mission or Church on a map. Can't be more specific because there would have been some symbolism inside the circle that would represent a specific place or group. Like this:



    Could it be from the one with a similar icon? "The eight missions that the Province of the Apostles of Michoacan has in Rio Verde."

    2. We already know who Kino is/was.

    3. The "SS" would either stand for a Mine (if made by Seculars), Saint, or Mission. I first thought maybe San Saba Mine, but the dates are wrong. I'm at work right now and can't access most of my info, so I'll put that off till later.

    4. The Cross over the "V" typically denotes the Jesuit Order. Nobody has yet to come up with a concrete meaning for it. My Jesuit Friend at Georgetown University thinks it may stand for the "V"irgin Mary. I think it also possibly stands for the "V" in "In Hoc Signo Vinces" (roughly translated means "with this as your standard you shall have victory" with the "In Hoc Signo" being the IHS in the Jesuit Logo).

    Best-Mike
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  4. #4
    us
    Oct 2010
    38
    7 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Mike,

    I just found the back side of the Kino Cross. This may help. Outstanding information! Very impressed, I will send more items to you to evaluate. Thanks!

    I also attached a graphic that was created by Oren Swearingen, we used it in a newsletter from years ago but I never asked him where he got this information.

    -alex
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #5
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,850
    1162 times

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Quote Originally Posted by victorio peak
    I have attached an assay report of Letha, Ova Noss's granddaughter. Letha, was the closest to Doc Noss, she shadowed his every move and was the most aware of details pertaining to the Victorio Peak and the Caballo Mountains. She personally witnessed over 200 gold bars that Doc brought out of the Peak. Part of her job was to research and have translated documents he pulled out of the Peak because they were written in Spanish. Some other jobs he tasked her with were assays of gold bullion he brought up from the Peak. Below is an assay from 1939
    Puzzling assay here, considering all the Victorio Peak rumors. You say the assay is of 'gold bullion'. Generally speaking, 'bullion' is a metal alloy resulting from the smelting of mineralized ore concentrates. Often, 'bullion' is in the form of bars or other solid metal masses, which in this case makes sense considering the claims made of Noss's discoveries within Victorio Peak (lots of metal bars). If this is true, then the assay describes a 'copper bar' with silver and gold values (about 1/2% gold). Valuable, yes, but this does not qualify as a 'gold bar'.
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  6. #6
    us
    Oct 2010
    38
    7 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield
    Quote Originally Posted by victorio peak
    I have attached an assay report of Letha, Ova Noss's granddaughter. Letha, was the closest to Doc Noss, she shadowed his every move and was the most aware of details pertaining to the Victorio Peak and the Caballo Mountains. She personally witnessed over 200 gold bars that Doc brought out of the Peak. Part of her job was to research and have translated documents he pulled out of the Peak because they were written in Spanish. Some other jobs he tasked her with were assays of gold bullion he brought up from the Peak. Below is an assay from 1939
    Puzzling assay here, considering all the Victorio Peak rumors. You say the assay is of 'gold bullion'. Generally speaking, 'bullion' is a metal alloy resulting from the smelting of mineralized ore concentrates. Often, 'bullion' is in the form of bars or other solid metal masses, which in this case makes sense considering the claims made of Noss's discoveries within Victorio Peak (lots of metal bars). If this is true, then the assay describes a 'copper bar' with silver and gold values (about 1/2% gold). Valuable, yes, but this does not qualify as a 'gold bar'.

    You are correct. I should have stated what the assay said, "sample". I find myself saying this too but will be more careful as to the words I use, thank you for that. The bars are often mistakenly called gold bars, it's more exciting but they were not pure gold. The assay gives the most probably purity of all the bars Noss found. Letha described to us that Doc had a small hammer that he kept in his pocket on his numerous journey's to the room(s), he would use the hammer to ping the ends of the bars so to determine which had the most gold. Crude but effective. I have attached a photograph of Ova holding a sword and some other items. The sea fan looking thing is "slag", or run off from crude sand molds. Ova kept this piece after Doc brought it out. I can tell you, I have it in front of me now, it's not pure gold. When scratched it looks "copper like" and I would be willing to bet this matches the assay report.


    cheers,

    -alex

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  7. #7
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,850
    1162 times

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Quote Originally Posted by victorio peak

    You are correct. I should have stated what the assay said, "sample". I find myself saying this too but will be more careful as to the words I use, thank you for that. The bars are often mistakenly called gold bars, it's more exciting but they were not pure gold. The assay gives the most probably purity of all the bars Noss found. Letha described to us that Doc had a small hammer that he kept in his pocket on his numerous journey's to the room(s), he would use the hammer to ping the ends of the bars so to determine which had the most gold. Crude but effective. I have attached a photograph of Ova holding a sword and some other items. The sea fan looking thing is "slag", or run off from crude sand molds. Ova kept this piece after Doc brought it out. I can tell you, I have it in front of me now, it's not pure gold. When scratched it looks "copper like" and I would be willing to bet this matches the assay report.

    cheers,

    -alex
    Most crudely smelted 'gold bars' tend to run about 60% gold. However, according to the assay, the Noss sample only checks in at about 0.5% gold content. Therefore, according to the assay, a 60-pound Noss bar (typical size, more or less?) would contain 40 lbs of copper and only 4 or 5 ounces of gold, plus some silver. That places the value at about $8,000 per bar at today's values ($6,000 gold/$2,000 copper), more or less. Nice, but radically less that we would have expected considering the legend. Something seems to be amiss here.
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  8. #8
    us
    Oct 2010
    38
    7 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield
    Quote Originally Posted by victorio peak

    You are correct. I should have stated what the assay said, "sample". I find myself saying this too but will be more careful as to the words I use, thank you for that. The bars are often mistakenly called gold bars, it's more exciting but they were not pure gold. The assay gives the most probably purity of all the bars Noss found. Letha described to us that Doc had a small hammer that he kept in his pocket on his numerous journey's to the room(s), he would use the hammer to ping the ends of the bars so to determine which had the most gold. Crude but effective. I have attached a photograph of Ova holding a sword and some other items. The sea fan looking thing is "slag", or run off from crude sand molds. Ova kept this piece after Doc brought it out. I can tell you, I have it in front of me now, it's not pure gold. When scratched it looks "copper like" and I would be willing to bet this matches the assay report.

    cheers,

    -alex
    Most crudely smelted 'gold bars' tend to run about 60% gold. However, according to the assay, the Noss sample only checks in at about 0.5% gold content. Therefore, according to the assay, a 60-pound Noss bar (typical size, more or less?) would contain 40 lbs of copper and only 4 or 5 ounces of gold, plus some silver. That places the value at about $8,000 per bar at today's values ($6,000 gold/$2,000 copper), more or less. Nice, but radically less that we would have expected considering the legend. Something seems to be amiss here.
    This is ore not bullion. I should have added ore and bullion. If this were bullion there would be no way to determine how much ore it took to make it, ounces per ton would be irrelevant, hence this must be ore. Please remember this was in the family archives but with no written information as to what Doc was doing. This document is an assay with Doc's name on it and seems to be an assay of ore.


    -alex

  9. #9
    us
    Aug 2010
    Colorado
    56

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Maybe the Santa Rita is the source of the Vic peak metals. It is my understanding that ore can be assayed and then a geographical location assumed. Can the same be done with bullion, or does it lose important info in the smelting process? Or is my initial understanding wrong.

    Assuming the assay to be true and reflective of what the content of the majority of bars was, putting a location to the source of the bars could help clear up or at least narrow down some things. Might even help narrow down where Noss could have gotten his info from (I assume his find to not be accidental).

    Of course that is one big shipment of copper expected to be received in Mexico. If true concerning that these are more accurately described as copper bars versus gold bars, that could definitely change some of the current theories ... or unleash others.

    Certainly not as glamorous, but at your estimated price, Noss carried out a cool $2.5+ million worth of bars. Not too shabby.

  10. #10
    us
    Aug 2010
    Colorado
    56

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Now that I have posted, I see you have clarified some things ...

    Please remember this was in the family archives but with no written information as to what Doc was doing. This document is an assay with Doc's name on it and seems to be an assay of ore.
    So, for clarification purposes, are you retracting association between this assay and the metal bars found in Vic peak despite the inference of their connection in your thread title?

  11. #11
    pw
    Apr 2003
    New Mexico
    BS
    2,850
    1162 times

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Quote Originally Posted by victorio peak
    Quote Originally Posted by Springfield
    Quote Originally Posted by victorio peak

    You are correct. I should have stated what the assay said, "sample". I find myself saying this too but will be more careful as to the words I use, thank you for that. The bars are often mistakenly called gold bars, it's more exciting but they were not pure gold. The assay gives the most probably purity of all the bars Noss found. Letha described to us that Doc had a small hammer that he kept in his pocket on his numerous journey's to the room(s), he would use the hammer to ping the ends of the bars so to determine which had the most gold. Crude but effective. I have attached a photograph of Ova holding a sword and some other items. The sea fan looking thing is "slag", or run off from crude sand molds. Ova kept this piece after Doc brought it out. I can tell you, I have it in front of me now, it's not pure gold. When scratched it looks "copper like" and I would be willing to bet this matches the assay report.

    cheers,

    -alex
    Most crudely smelted 'gold bars' tend to run about 60% gold. However, according to the assay, the Noss sample only checks in at about 0.5% gold content. Therefore, according to the assay, a 60-pound Noss bar (typical size, more or less?) would contain 40 lbs of copper and only 4 or 5 ounces of gold, plus some silver. That places the value at about $8,000 per bar at today's values ($6,000 gold/$2,000 copper), more or less. Nice, but radically less that we would have expected considering the legend. Something seems to be amiss here.
    This is ore not bullion. I should have added ore and bullion. If this were bullion there would be no way to determine how much ore it took to make it, ounces per ton would be irrelevant, hence this must be ore. Please remember this was in the family archives but with no written information as to what Doc was doing. This document is an assay with Doc's name on it and seems to be an assay of ore.

    -alex
    You definitely need to get your ducks in a row with these Noss stories - your credibility could be vulnerable if you don't get your stories straight. While I totally agree that the assay you posted more likely describes ore, not bullion, it was you who made the bullion claim in the first place.

    That aside, I have a question - why would Noss be interested in high grade ore if already-smelted gold bars by the thousands (allegedly) were to be had within Victorio Peak? Considering reports that Noss tried to peddle non-gold (copper perhaps?) bars as genuine during the time of his adventures, perhaps the existence of the gold bars themselves could be in jeopardy. After all, Noss was well known as a con man, and the mining/treasure hunting venue could be very lucrative then, as it is now, for crooks. Further speculating here, if there were no gold bars, but copper ones instead, 'accidentally' isolated by Noss's disastrous attempt to 'enlarge the entrance', I imagine this would give Ryan a powerful motive for killing Doc later in the game if the truth got out. By the way, Cat Jockey's comment about copper bars from the Santa Rita mine adds an interesting new twist to this line of speculation.

    I'm looking forward to hearing the 'truth' of all this.
    ​Adios, amigos - it's been interesting.







  12. #12
    us
    Oct 2010
    38
    7 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    A discrepancy in a comment I made about bullion versus ore in an assay report doesn't constitute an unraveling of a con. The assay report is for ore only, and it now clearly stands alone. As far as bullion there is a published report from Los Alamos of bars F.Lee Bailey handed over to the State of N.M. and they ran very high, more like the expected gold content of 60%. Bailey swore they came from the Peak! This document and the ones you most likely need to see are in book two of The Gold House. Book two is the tell all of the theft in great detail. There is a fourth book which is a document book that every detail is referenced to. You would find all the documentation you seek there.

    Doc had his reasons for throwing the wrong people off the track, he had something huge to hide. There was no need to convince anyone of the truth , it had a life of it's own and he needed to subdue it's effects not amplify them. Still, information beyond family oral history is limited. One could surmise that this was all a clever con and Doc purposely buried his "find" so to raise capitol and live a comfortable life. If you wanted to take the dozens of affidavits of eyewitnesses that have seen and held gold, take all the none family accounts which exist written and in videos, and discard them, that would be fine. You can still make up an excuse that some clever manipulation over the past 70 years was still an orchestration by some crafty people. The true validation of what Doc found ironically doesn't rest on these accounts, for some it will rest on the hundred's of documents generated by the Army, FBI, CIA, Secret Service, etc. I doubt that Doc's "con" could have reached that far from the grave to dupe all of them. Contracts were drafted with bank presidents, CIA Operatives personal records, warehouse receipts, and smelting factories all in the book. I fear the details you seek can only be found in this book upon it's release. You just have to wait a bit. You won't be disappointed.

    My intention here is to provide interesting information for all to view. I am able to speak about events that happened during our excavation in the early 90's in accurate detail. I'm afraid my information regarding any previous Peak stories are better than most but not as good as some. Quiz me about the 90's Peak and I can nail it. Sorry about the confusion about the records above, my bad.

    cheers,

    -alex

  13. #13
    Charter Member
    om
    Jan 2006
    SoCal
    Modded SD2000 / Fisher FX-3 / Fisher Gemini / Schiebel MIMID
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    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Hey Alex,

    As for the back of the crucifix:

    1. "MM" would likely mean Saint Mary Magdalene or Kino's Mission in Sonora "Mission Santa Maria Magdalena".

    2. 1707 Date

    3. Cross

    4. "X" is formed like the Roman Numeral "X" (10). Might stand for the weight of the silver.

    Best-Mike
    Check out 1ORO1.COM

  14. #14
    us
    Oct 2010
    38
    7 times
    All Types Of Treasure Hunting

    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Mike, Thank you for that information, really great stuff. You are an asset to the treasure community!

    Keeping what I said in mind I thought I would add this to your topic. Letha, Doc Noss's stepdaughter told me numerous stories about Doc's feelings regarding the origin of what he found. Within the "Big Room", he said he found a wooden box that had metal corners with three locks on the its front. Stamped into the metal center was the word "Carlota". From that moment on he was convinced that the treasure, at least part of it was Maximillian's. At other times Letha mentioned Doc bringing out a box full of European mail, which he promptly burned. He felt it may show ownership in someway and jeopardize his find. But the biggest item that was removed from the cave is a crown. Ova Noss gave a video interview in 1977 where she speaks in some detail about it. As she stated, it had 250 diamonds and one pigeon blood ruby in the center. They put it in a paper bag and then weighed it on meat scales in a grocery store in El Paso. It weighed in at 6 pounds and made of gold. This crown was placed in a foot locker along with other items removed and Doc and a friend stashed it in the Caballos somewhere. Now, I have a photo that has been in the Noss family archives since the 1940's. No living member of the family could validate if the photo was taken by Doc or if it came out of a book. This is unclear but it does match her story. If you look at old paintings of Carlota this crown doesn't seem to match. Just another mystery.


    cheers,

    -alex
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  15. #15
    Charter Member
    om
    Jan 2006
    SoCal
    Modded SD2000 / Fisher FX-3 / Fisher Gemini / Schiebel MIMID
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    Re: Victorio Peak Documents, Symbols and Artifacts

    Thanks Alex,

    The older paintings of Carlota de Mexico (see below painted in 1864) were mostly done after Maximilian's ascension to the Throne of Mexico. Most likely, whatever jewels she had before were put away and new ones made expressly for her new position. If that Tiara was something she inherited from her family, then it is not likely to be in any later portraits.

    The best two options would be either look for older paintings of Charlotte of Belgium (pre Maximilian), or portraits of her female family members. That tiara does have a very French look to it.

    It IS tough to tell whether that is a picture of a book, or a wrinkled old B&W Pic.

    Best-Mike
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