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Thread: .69 Caliber Musket Identification

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  1. #16
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    That type of lock first came around in the 1830's as I remember, so no older than that. Muzzle loaders were pretty much obsolete by the 1870's so no newer than that, I would imagine more toward the earlier end of those dates
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOLA_Ken View Post
    That type of lock first came around in the 1830's as I remember, so no older than that. Muzzle loaders were pretty much obsolete by the 1870's so no newer than that, I would imagine more toward the earlier end of those dates
    My guess is circa 1840, give or take 5 or 10 years either way, based on what I have heard from you guys and researched off of that information. How does that sound to you as an approximate manufacturing date? Thanks for all of the great info guys, going to try to make a display mount for the gun soon.
    Last edited by coinman123; Jan 02, 2018 at 07:46 PM.
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  3. #18
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    I agree with BosnMate.

    Back action lock and never a flintlock, shotgun rather than musket (it was intended for shot with that styling),

    Here's another - Bishop made guns in London in the 1850's +/- (site won't let me copy the image). 16 bore (0.662")

    ARMSLIST - For Sale: J. Bishop 16 ga Percussion Single Barrel Shotgun

  4. #19
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    Sorry for my ignorance, but how do you tell the difference between a muzzle loading shotgun and a musket?
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  5. #20
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    "Musket" is a military designation. Issued to troops, or militia, and usually with a bayonet fitting. Civilians used a fusil, firelock, gun - all mean the same thing. Sometimes "fowler", but that is the shooter not the gun.

    Later (just before the Civil War era) they were rifled and called a "Rifled Musket".

    Rifle, or rifled gun, would he the other firearm - more accurate and single projectile. Though a single round ball works great in muskets or smooth guns . . . out to 60 yards or a bit further.
    Last edited by Charlie P. (NY); Jan 02, 2018 at 09:20 PM.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by coinman123 View Post
    My guess is circa 1840, give or take 5 or 10 years either way, based on what I have heard from you guys and researched off of that information. How does that sound to you as an approximate manufacturing date? Thanks for all of the great info guys, going to try to make a display mount for the gun soon.
    I think you are too early on your guess. The percussion cap wasn't invented until 1836. My guess would be in the neighborhood of the late 50's to the early 70's. However lots of muzzleloading firearms were being used in Appalachia until WWI, and even after. Now I'm going to have to do a little research.
    Due to the high price of ammunition there will be no warning shot.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by coinman123 View Post
    My guess is circa 1840, give or take 5 or 10 years either way, based on what I have heard from you guys and researched off of that information. How does that sound to you as an approximate manufacturing date? Thanks for all of the great info guys, going to try to make a display mount for the gun soon.
    1800's is old enough. For now, till research reveals a tighter time frame.
    Whenever it was built ,it was a versatile utilitarian piece, with conservative flair. The lock and the trigger guard were not plain Jane bare boned.
    Some one prized it a while ,then who knows who else , and now you.
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  8. #23
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    It appears that the back action patent came out about the same time as the invention of the percussion cap. But I still think it is a stretch to date your gun to the 30's or 40's. I will stick with my first guess, and say 50's to 70's. It's still a great, historical firearm, and you got a heck of a good deal.
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    Due to the high price of ammunition there will be no warning shot.

  9. #24
    us
    Knowledge in machine struck coinage and colonial through 1800's Relics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BosnMate View Post
    It appears that the back action patent came out about the same time as the invention of the percussion cap. But I still think it is a stretch to date your gun to the 30's or 40's. I will stick with my first guess, and say 50's to 70's. It's still a great, historical firearm, and you got a heck of a good deal.
    Thanks! Maybe just wishful thinking with my date range, 50's to 70's is still just as cool. Someone could have easily taken a gun like this into the Civil War, who knows what the story is on mine. Like releventchair said, you can tell that someone truly prized this gun at one point. When I get the chance this week I will try to make a wooden display board to put it on to hang somewhere where everyone can see it. It's very cool to hold it in your hand and know that this was one of someone's most important possessions back in the day, to hunt for food, self defense, etc. Do you recommend that I get a light restoration from someone who knows what they are doing to fix up the wood and make a ramrod? Would it be worth it if I did this, or it best to leave it how it is. My only other gun was found by my grandfather while dredging in the Chesapeake bay, it is a Model 1858 Remington New Army the is now one big ball of rust after being in the ocean for probably one hundred fifty years. Maybe I could display it too.
    Kray Gelder, NOLA_Ken and BosnMate like this.
    2014-2017 Finds
    1700s Sundial
    165? french liard
    1696 1774 1730s 17?? copper
    1723 irish penny
    1730 KG coin toy
    2x AU 1803 LC
    1722 1/2 Penny
    1779, 1781 Real, ? 1 Real
    NJ Copper 1786
    1805,1838 LC
    26 Coppers 17 colonial
    175 1720-1850 buttons
    40 Musket Balls
    1906 1912 1934 dog Lics
    16 1700s Buckles 1 silver
    2 1700s spigot
    3 Thimbles 1 silver
    Cleaning Finds:
    http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/ge...ns-relics.html

  10. #25
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    More clues!

    "Seriously, I find two listings of "J. Bishop". One was a lock maker in Philadelphia c. 1790, which is too early if the cap lock is original. The other was a gun and lock maker in London, England, around 1840, which would be more in line with a date for a caplock. However, it looks to me like the lock was originally a flintlock as I can see holes that look like they were for the frizzen spring and screw, so the Philadelphia Bishop may be the right one. If so, he probably made and sold locks to local gunsmiths who used them on their own guns."

    Excerpted from link below



    https://thefiringline.com/forums/arc...p?t-63079.html
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  11. #26
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    That's a fine looking, used well old weapon. An excellent wall hanger. Make sure you show us the powder horn when you get one. Then the kit bag, old decoys, fowling attire. You opened up a can, Coinman, enjoy!
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by coinman123 View Post
    Thanks! Maybe just wishful thinking with my date range, 50's to 70's is still just as cool. Someone could have easily taken a gun like this into the Civil War, who knows what the story is on mine. Like releventchair said, you can tell that someone truly prized this gun at one point. When I get the chance this week I will try to make a wooden display board to put it on to hang somewhere where everyone can see it. It's very cool to hold it in your hand and know that this was one of someone's most important possessions back in the day, to hunt for food, self defense, etc. Do you recommend that I get a light restoration from someone who knows what they are doing to fix up the wood and make a ramrod? Would it be worth it if I did this, or it best to leave it how it is. My only other gun was found by my grandfather while dredging in the Chesapeake bay, it is a Model 1858 Remington New Army the is now one big ball of rust after being in the ocean for probably one hundred fifty years. Maybe I could display it too.
    I would seriously advise leaving the stock as is, and don't touch the finish of the metal at all. A light cleaning with a very soft cloth and gun oil is all I would do. I would suggest taking a bore brush, and a bore cleaner made for black powder and thoroughly clean the inside of the barrel. Get all the accumulated gunk and lint out, wipe it clean with gun patches and give it a coat of oil inside as well. The reason I always say to clean the bore is that dirt and lint that collect in there over time (especially if it spent a long time leaned up in a corner) will attract and hold moisture just from humidity in the air and cause pitting inside. Other than that leave it as is, every scratch and ding on it is part of it's story.

    Edit... Finding or making a ramrod for it won't have any effect on value, but it will make the gun complete, and in my opinion better to look at. If you look around you should be able to track down period ram rod caps and make a new one out of dowel rod, which is what I would want to do, but if you can't find old ones, someplace like Track of the Wolf.com or Dixie Gun Works might have what you need
    Last edited by NOLA_Ken; Jan 03, 2018 at 07:02 PM.
    "That's me, on the beach side combing the sand, metal meter in my hand, sporting a pocket full of change"...... NOFX

    I collect military relics, mainly German and American, but interested in others as well, pre 1945 .. Always interested in adding to my collection

    some of my antique photo collection : http://forgottonimages.tumblr.com/



  13. #28
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  14. #29
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    To clean the inside of the barrel,just use what was used.Boiling water and soap.Oil well after its dry.If possible take the barrel out of the stock.If not possible get rubber tubing that will fit over the nipple.Submerge the other end of the tube in the soapy water.A tight fitting cleaning patch will draw the water in then flush it out as the cleaning rod goes up and down the barrel.Hopefully it isnt loaded or you have some work for yourself
    Last edited by Red James Cash; Jan 03, 2018 at 07:32 PM.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by coinman123 View Post
    Thanks! Maybe just wishful thinking with my date range, 50's to 70's is still just as cool. Someone could have easily taken a gun like this into the Civil War, who knows what the story is on mine. Like releventchair said, you can tell that someone truly prized this gun at one point. When I get the chance this week I will try to make a wooden display board to put it on to hang somewhere where everyone can see it. It's very cool to hold it in your hand and know that this was one of someone's most important possessions back in the day, to hunt for food, self defense, etc. Do you recommend that I get a light restoration from someone who knows what they are doing to fix up the wood and make a ramrod? Would it be worth it if I did this, or it best to leave it how it is. My only other gun was found by my grandfather while dredging in the Chesapeake bay, it is a Model 1858 Remington New Army the is now one big ball of rust after being in the ocean for probably one hundred fifty years. Maybe I could display it too.
    I wouldn't do anything to the gun, except use some lite oil --- 3 in 1 oil --- on the metal parts. If you remove the lock to oil the inside, use a proper fitting screw driver and don't screw up the screw heads any more than they probably are. Do NOT shine the brass or do anything to the metal other than a lite coat of oil. On the wood, you could hand rub a little linseed oil, not a lot, you are just protecting the wood, not baptizing it. Anything else you do to the gun takes away value. If you are not going to shoot it, why restore it? Anything you do from now on will take away value of the gun. On old guns, patina is everything, and if you take that away, you really can't get it back. As far as displaying it, here is what I did with mine. It's an original Pennsylvania long rifle. Pouch and powder horn are repo's.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	cave5B.jpg 
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    As far as a ramrod goes, I'd probably get one. Google Track of the Wolf, and you can buy the wood and tip from them. If you want to be like an original and go all the way into the stock, then you probably will have to taper it some to get it to fit. What I do is chuck the dowel in a drill, and use sandpaper and taper the end that goes into the stock. The tip will have to be inlet so the brass end will fit, and then that is drilled and a small metal pin holds it in place. If you decide to make a ramrod, PM me and I'll help you out. Check with Track of the Wolf, or Dixie Gun Works, they might sell them already made up.
    Have you checked to see if it's loaded? If not, take a dowel and on the outside of the barrel, lay it so that it goes all the way to the breech. Mark the dowel at the muzzle. Then insert it in the barrel, and if it doesn't go all the way to the breech, you probably have a loaded gun. Not dangerous, don't get excited. If it is loaded, you will need a worm to remove the load. You would be surprised how many old guns turn up loaded. Also, unless you know for sure it isn't loaded, DO NOT put a cap on the nipple and pop it. That's about all the typing I'm up to right now.
    Last edited by BosnMate; Jan 03, 2018 at 08:39 PM.
    Due to the high price of ammunition there will be no warning shot.

 

 
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