1641 Plate Fleet information

TRG

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"Elementary my dear Watson"

Sleuthing

My interest in the above timber, especially initially, was to see how much could be learned from it given the very limited information available - evidence from the object itself and from the information on the attached card. I knew nothing about 17th century shipwrecks on the coast of Florida.

The timber is oak, well preserved, with two rows of nails (heads sheared off) showing (blue green) copper staining around them and some with whitish oxidation, assumed to be lead, surrounding. A ~3cm hole had been drilled at one side and at the broken end evidence of a square spike being driven through, again with blue-green copper stain surrounding. The one end of the timber has been violently broken as if from impact. Some shipworm damage, some barnacles attached, one side clean, the other pitted and decayed.

Hardware is consistent with 17th century ship construction as noted in "Ships' Fastenings; From Sewn Boat to Steamship" by Michael McCarthy, Texas A&M Press, 2005. Copper alloy nails fastening lead sheathing to hull planks fastened to frame with treenails and copper alloy spikes. Peter Earle's "The Treasure of the Concepción" notes repairs to that ship in Vera Cruz using lead sheathing.

State of preservation indicates long burial in sand and thus protected from shipworm. Barnacles indicate being exposed in near shore location - inter-tidal zone to ~30m depth. Not so many (barnacles) so exposure was not lengthy. One side was up (exposed to sand scour), the other partially buried.

Just over 120 rings are visible in cross section, nice variability. Suitable for tree ring dating. Base chronologies are available from eastern North America and Europe including the Basque region of Spain where oak was harvested for shipbuilding during this time. Strong match with German oak is reasonable as timber was being purchased from this region by Spain for ship building during the 17th century. Outer ring date 1586, no sapwood. Missing sapwood = 15-30 years, so minimum date of felling = post 1600 AD. Typical timber usage relies on utilization with relatively little trimming - pick a tree about the right size for intended use. This tree has been split to yield 2 planks - seems reasonable. Missing heartwood rings probably <50. Likely felling date before 1650.

Information card gives a very general location (Boca Raton), a date of acquisition (1966), and an accessory fact "1640 coin".

No information is given about said coin - one or many? how dated? clearly associated with a wreck site? That said it will be assumed to be"good information" with acknowledgement that this is indeed an assumption that cannot be proved without additional evidence.

In 1964 Hurricane Cleo swept up the east coast of Florida:

Storm Tracks by Name: Hurricane Cleo, 1964

Following the storm some finds were made along the coast including 18th century cannon. Possibly a wreck site or bits of a wreck were exposed near Boca Raton and found not too long after - barnacles, but not too many, well preserved wood exposed after long burial. This is speculation that seems reasonable.

For the following discussion remember that the wreck of the Concepción was not relocated until 1978. The disaster was well known, especially because of Phips successful salvage in 1687, but any coinage of that vintage turning up on the east coast should logically have come from the initial wrecks or from circulation of salvaged coins post 1687.

The plate fleet of 1641 is an obvious source for coinage deemed to be "1640" in vintage. Many ships were wrecked/driven ashore on/near the Florida coast. Problem - as CHAGY noted up thread testimony of a/the survivor(s) put the disaster occurring near 30 deg N lat. Boca Raton is ~26 deg N and an error of 4 degrees seems a bit of a stretch. Without a concerted research effort in Seville it is not possible to form a more complete opinion about this testimony. Could ships have gone ashore after being driven south? Winds and currents make this seem unlikely... not impossible but unlikely, so either the testimony is in error or misleading in some fashion or the timber in question is from some other source. If the coin date is to be taken as correct and the latest felling date for timber 1650 (effective lifespan of ships ~<30yrs) then there are a few possibilities using Steve Singer's "Shipwrecks of Florida" as a source. However most in the Boca Raton area either pre-date the coin or post date it considerably.

Not resolvable without more evidence and more research.

CHAGY lists 6 ships from the 1641 fleet possible ending up on the Florida coast and 4 others accounted for. If the escort of 9 is assumed to have all survived that leaves an additional 11 ships unaccounted for. Hmmm.

Timber2.JPG Timber3.JPG
 

TRG

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addendum

I believe it fair to assume that a complete wreck site was not found - if it had been we would all know about it because a serious salvage effort would have been mounted, especially if it was indeed one of the 1641 fleet carrying a substantial amount of silver.

So

Perhaps a timber and coin(s) washed up following a storm and were collected - source unknown and could not be readily located(and association of the objects a little tenuous).

or

Some scatter from a wreck was located but the main site could not be - perhaps mostly buried.

or

A wreck site was located but then became quickly obscured and the finder could not relocate it.

or

...
 

OP
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hobbit

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Actually, the northern most position of Concepcion is listed in the source document shown in post 52 of this thread...something like "at the latitude of Bermuda"...32.3N or so...

Navigators of the period could only rely more or less on dead reckoning and coastal observation to determine longitude, but they were pretty efficient at determining latitude with a fair degree of accuracy.
 

TRG

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Actually, the northern most position of Concepcion is listed in the source document shown in post 52 of this thread...something like "at the latitude of Bermuda"...32.3N or so...

Navigators of the period could only rely more or less on dead reckoning and coastal observation to determine longitude, but they were pretty efficient at determining latitude with a fair degree of accuracy.

... depending on conditions during observations - impending storm, etc. Also the testimony is after the fact - is the recollection correct? Perhaps it is the position after the storm that is being remembered. Well - speculation w/o evidence here.

It is interesting that there are some many missing ships, some of which are said to have gone onto the coast during the storm, and none found/salvaged as far as we know.
 

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hobbit

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It is interesting that there are some many missing ships, some of which are said to have gone onto the coast during the storm, and none found/salvaged as far as we know.


The paucity of Florida beach /artifact recoveries plausibly linkable to the loss of the 1641 Flota is suggestive, IMHO.

I believe the "cliffs" mentioned by Duro are possibly descriptions of walls of wave "breakers" crashing against rapidly shoaling water...perhaps, quite literally, MILES from shore.
 

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hobbit

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Sleuthing

My interest in the above timber, especially initially, was to see how much could be learned from it given the very limited information available - evidence from the object itself and from the information on the attached card. I knew nothing about 17th century shipwrecks on the coast of Florida.

The timber is oak, well preserved, with two rows of nails (heads sheared off) showing (blue green) copper staining around them and some with whitish oxidation, assumed to be lead, surrounding. A ~3cm hole had been drilled at one side and at the broken end evidence of a square spike being driven through, again with blue-green copper stain surrounding. The one end of the timber has been violently broken as if from impact. Some shipworm damage, some barnacles attached, one side clean, the other pitted and decayed.

Hardware is consistent with 17th century ship construction as noted in "Ships' Fastenings; From Sewn Boat to Steamship" by Michael McCarthy, Texas A&M Press, 2005. Copper alloy nails fastening lead sheathing to hull planks fastened to frame with treenails and copper alloy spikes. Peter Earle's "The Treasure of the Concepción" notes repairs to that ship in Vera Cruz using lead sheathing.

State of preservation indicates long burial in sand and thus protected from shipworm. Barnacles indicate being exposed in near shore location - inter-tidal zone to ~30m depth. Not so many (barnacles) so exposure was not lengthy. One side was up (exposed to sand scour), the other partially buried.

Just over 120 rings are visible in cross section, nice variability. Suitable for tree ring dating. Base chronologies are available from eastern North America and Europe including the Basque region of Spain where oak was harvested for shipbuilding during this time. Strong match with German oak is reasonable as timber was being purchased from this region by Spain for ship building during the 17th century. Outer ring date 1586, no sapwood. Missing sapwood = 15-30 years, so minimum date of felling = post 1600 AD. Typical timber usage relies on utilization with relatively little trimming - pick a tree about the right size for intended use. This tree has been split to yield 2 planks - seems reasonable. Missing heartwood rings probably <50. Likely felling date before 1650.

This is a wonderful scientific description of the artifact.
 

TRG

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This is a wonderful scientific description of the artifact.

Thanks, it was a very entertaining bit of research and hopefully the conclusions not too wide of the mark. It was your engaging discussion with chagy that drew me to this site in the first place.
 

TRG

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IMG_0532.jpg
Happy hunting one and all! (All I'm missing are a couple of pieces of eight :) )
 

ivan salis

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as I'm sure you research types know --via singers --ship wrecks of florida -- the1641 treasure fleet was hard hit and the treasure vessel conception was badly damaged and turned back trying to return and get repaired --she was overpowered by a storm and wrecked off the DR ...its via the survivors from her (some of which tried to swim t--others built a life boat from the wreckage ) that we learned the fate of the other vessels of the fleet and their loss on the coast of florida at the estimated 30 degree area of loss ...( note that the means of setting latitude had not yet be devised at that time--so dead reckoning via known land marks was used--so it could be well off -- ) as 30 degrees would be by guana river state park area..


lead hull sheathing is proper for a 1641 era type ship --the lead was to prevent sea worms from boring into the ships hulls causing the ships to leak and take on water (later era ships used copper sheathing --lead means very old ship)

I was a merchant seaman for 27 years and my families seafaring history is quite long --several generations -- a sailing ship that gets struck by a hurricane can easily be demasted and once that occurs she is at the mercy of the sea where it wants to take her ..the winds will blow whichever way they want and all you can do is go with it ,,basically your helpless --the gulf stream might take you north , the strong winds might blow you south -- or east into the shorelines or reefs --or take you west out to sea to die from lack of food / water ..you hope and pray that you can rig up a makeshift sail of some sort and that your rudder is intact
 

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TRG

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as I'm sure you research types know --via singers --ship wrecks of florida -- the1641 treasure fleet was hard hit and the treasure vessel conception was badly damaged and turned back trying to return and get repaired --she was overpowered by a storm and wrecked off the DR ...its via the survivors from her (some of which tried to swim t--others built a life boat from the wreckage ) that we learned the fate of the other vessels of the fleet and their loss on the coast of florida at the estimated 30 degree area of loss ...( note that the means of setting latitude had not yet be devised at that time--so dead reckoning via known land marks was used--so it could be well off -- ) as 30 degrees would be by guana river state park area..


lead hull sheathing is proper for a 1641 era type ship --the lead was to prevent sea worms from boring into the ships hulls causing the ships to leak and take on water

The "capitana", most or all of the 9 ship "armada", and at least a couple of the merchant ships survived. The Capitan made it back to Spain where it ran aground and had to be salvaged. The main English language summaries have focused on the accounts of two or three of the survivors of the concepcion, perhaps because they had to testify in Spain about the loss and concepcion has been the focus of most of the research. I would like to come up with a complete list of the 21 ships and their date and place of construction but such information is not readily available. Conepcion was built around 1620, reportedly in Havana. Chagy posted a few names early in this thread.
 

ivan salis

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watch the "treasure hunter" video posted by jolly mon ..its all about the modern day wreck hunt for the conception off of DR --it has tips in it about how folks made rafts from the ships wreckage to try to get to shore in DR from the silver banks reef area ..its from those survivors account that we kno0w of the loss of the other vessels the fleet lost ..
 

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IMG_20170524_172718_03.jpg
Found s of St Augustine. Think it a 2reale by weight...found after 2017 hurricane.
 

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TXPIRATE

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Heard a long time ago. Growing up on the ST MARY'S RIVER I big anchor up the ST Marys river up near white oak. Not sure or the side of river.
Also a long time ago a giant anchor being found on blackbeard island near st Catherine island
 

TRG

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oak island wood

So a tangent, with some treasure dear to my heart.

Some years back (more than 10) the author of "Oak Island and its Lost Treasure" sent a colleague some pieces of spruce timber from the cofferdam and slipway associated with the Oak Island mystery to see if they could be tree-ring dated using dendrochronology. He tried and answered "no" because the samples sent represented only 3 trees, two of which had less than 50 rings (years growth), and there was no local (nearby) spruce chronology against which to test. There was discussion about obtaining more samples but this plan was not followed up. I came across these samples recently during my curation work and decided to take a second look - short answer is still "no", I concur with my colleague. Perhaps I will try some followup with the principles as it might be possible to come up with a date - which I believe would be of interest.

Oak Island has a connection to the 1641 fleet by way of the conjecture, raised by the authors of the above noted volume, that William Phipps, who salvaged the Concepcion in the 1680s, and his partners hid some (or all) of the loot from their third 'unsuccessful' salvage voyage on Oak Island.

More samples from the cofferdam and additional samples from local timber (either live and/or used in local buildings of known age) might allow a successful tree-ring match. Taking a sequence of samples for radiocarbon dating - perhaps three from the timber with 90 rings with known intervals between, each sample from a single ring - might allow a radiocarbon age determination with the uncertainty reduced to a useful range.

Pictures of three sections and a view of cofferdam samples "in the rough".

View attachment Oak_Is003.jpg Oak_Is004.jpg View attachment Oak_Is005.jpg Sample 1_2_3 Orig Log.jpg
 

stevemc

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I saw this I think for the first time. There have been treasure salvage of shipwrecks on Cape Canavral and north of the cape. There is no doubt that there are wrecks out there. I forgot the people who worked them, they were friends of my dad, who is dead now, so I cannot ask him the names. Rex Stocker I think is one?? Maybe. I do know one wreck was right on shore, in the water. Under the sand. As far as I know it was mostly silver cobs. Also if a ship is on the Lee shore it is on the backside, with the wind blowing it away from the shore. Windward shore is the term for being blown on shore. Not Lee. So if it was written that some ship was near Lee shore, they were being blow away from it.
 

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TRG

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Hi Steve, the finder of the timber (and coin) was Charles Hoffman when he was a grad student in the 1960s. He died in 2005 and I have been unable to find any documentation, written or otherwise. on his find other than "Boca Raton, Fla" and the cryptic "coin 1640?". Hoffman did archaeological work on the Bahamas and the Columbus landing site in the 1970s I believe, and if I am not mistaken was living in Florida during the 1960s when he wasn't attending university. The wreck of the Concepcion had not been relocated at that time, nor the 1715 fleet for that matter.
 

stevemc

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The wood could be from any ship. The coin on the other hand, could very possibly be from that fleet. Also I was read a post on page 5 Ivan Salis stating that lead was used at that period and copper later. They used lead sheathing into the early 1800s. They used it for hundreds of years. So that is not a good dating point. There was no lead sheathing so that was only an assumption anyway. Could have been copper. And the 1715 fleet was found in the 1950s. Maybe late 40s.
 

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TRG

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The wood could be from any ship built (or repaired) in the first half of the 17th century. The nails form a pattern that is consistent with being used to fasten hull sheathing. The white oxidation around the nails is consistent with lead but it has not been tested. I may be able to have that done. My recollection about use of lead is that it went out of fashion after 1700, but it has been a while since I did that reading. Corrosion problems in proximity to iron fittings holding the rudder if I recall. As for the association of the timber with the coin (no pictures or description) I only have the author's terse notation. He was studying archaeology, but in the end there is too little information to draw any certain conclusions. Typical treasure clues...
 

stevemc

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Yes lead sheathing was used to at least 1820. So was copper early and still was even recently and on those old ships that are around today have copper sheathing. Very early iron sheathing nails were used- prior to the Bronze Age, maybe even later but it was found that iron and with any more noble metal such as lead or copper and the iron sheathing nails just fell right apart. They used bronze for rudder fittings not iron. Bronze was the stainless steel of today. And bronze has been around for 1000s of years. Actually bronze is still used over stainless steel for most underwater things such as propellers and rudders. Now propeller shafts and fasteners can be stainless steel in powerful situations, but zincs for sacrificial galvanic erosion must be used. The best combination which has been used for a long time is bronze sheathing nails, bronze bolts and spikes and copper or lead sheathing. Copper sheathing does corrode and new sheathing need to be put on occasionally. Brass is never used underwater. Brass sheathing was used by some enterprising dealer in the mid to late 1800s, but it corroded away too fast and that was scrapped.
 

TRG

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Tried to quickly assess the history of lead sheathing on ships and failed. Quite an interesting subject. I read that copper began to be introduced from 1760 but wasn't common until ~1800 and a layer of fabric was used beneath the sheathing to prevent electrolysis and the destruction of iron fittings. Nice document from Mel Fisher's group on lead sheathing from the Santa Margarita:

http://www.melfisher.org/pdf/Lead_Sheathing_from_Santa_Margarita.pdf

They found cloth impressions on one side of all the "shingles" from manufacture - maybe they were rolled flat on a cloth covered table. The process of "milling" (using paired rollers to flatten and thin the lead into sheets) lead sheets came in the 1680s. The other process - 'casting' - I believe is to use a cooled cylinder revolving over a molten lead bath to get a sheet to form on the roller. Harder to control the thickness.

"A comprehensive investigation of lead sheathing from the Emanuel Point shipwrecks in Pensacola Bay, Florida" thesis by Andrew Wallace Marr:

http://etd.fcla.edu/WF/WFE0000360/Marr_Andrew_Wallace_201301_MA.pdf

Tracing the source of lead sheets to Spain using XRF signature, among other things.
 

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