1652 Massachusetts Pine Tree Threepence and more from virgin 1660 homesite!

[oxbowbarefoot]

What an incredible day at a 1660 virgin homesite in Massachusetts! My first find was a huge Brown Bess musket ball. Nice way to get the day started. My next target was the best find of the day, and one of my best finds ever, a 1652 Pine Tree Threepence! It's either a Noe 36 or a Noe 37 variety. Unfortunately the tree side is tough to make a definitive call. Either way, it's well over a $1000 coin��. Then came a sweet George I Farthing. Next find was an Abraham Lincoln related thing, not sure what it is yet. Right next to that was a colonial gold broach. After an early ox knob and a a bale seal came a great goulcher lock or dog lock off a musket or rifle. All in all, a fantastic day!

Thank you Dr. R.M. Gramly for the tip on the location!

Updates:
The Pine Tree Threepence is a Noe 36/Salmon 2-B, Rarity 4, only 75-200 known!
The "dog lock" was actually just part of an old cap gun, darn!
The Lincoln item is a ferrotype campaign button from the 1860 election

 

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[scruggs]

You had a "blow it out of the park day!" Very, very nice finds!!

 

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[oxbowbarefoot]

For the sake of comparison, here are some estimates from PCGS for valuable, key date coins that are considered top finds/lifetime finds.

1916-D dime- estimated surviving coins 10,000+
1909 VDB-S Wheat Penny estimated surviving coins 5,000+
1877 Indian Head Cent PCGS has certified more than 2,000 with MANY more known to exist

My Noe 36 Pine Tree Threepence: between 75-200 total surviving in ALL grades. Most estimates are around 100 surviving examples.

 

[Scrappy]

For the sake of comparison, here are some estimates from PCGS for valuable, key date coins that are considered top finds/lifetime finds.

1916-D dime- estimated surviving coins 10,000+
1909 VDB-S Wheat Penny estimated surviving coins 5,000+
1877 Indian Head Cent PCGS has certified more than 2,000 with MANY more known to exist

My Noe 36 Pine Tree Threepence: between 75-200 total surviving in ALL grades. Most estimates are around 100 surviving examples.

Oh shucks and only 75-200 known of your type?

I know the last 1916-d found went banner if I'm remembering correctly. Oh, and Locodigger's 1877 went banner. Huh?! Lol

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

My 1874 Gold Dollar coin has over 10,000 graded examples between NGC and PCGS, or roughly 100x more graded examples than there are known surviving examples of the Threepence...

My bent, scratched, worn, dirty one made banner. I'm Not putting down common date gold finds, just putting it in terms of overall rarity. I think gold coins are banner worthy, especially someone's first gold coin. But, Way, way, WAY more gold coins are found than Mass silvers...

 

[JerseyDigger19]

Why isn't this a banner yet?

 

[eyemustdigtreasure]

Wow!
Fantastic Finds!
Gold and silver!
I'd be PROUD to find just any one of those items!
Yes, it was a great hunt!

 

[johnnyblaze]

That coin is at the tippity top of my list!
What is cool is i find most people who dig these type of coins were near the shore..Not sure how far the site was but if your near Vermont and Mass you must be a decent distance..Just something to note in tracking these killer finds..

~Blaze

 

[Dirtwisher]

Let's make a pact. We alternate making comments on this coin every few hours or 2x day until 6 months from now there are 700 posts which will be some kind of record.
I gotta be honest, part of what motivates me is that if I (who has practically zero time to detect, let alone banner finds) found one of these and it didn't get me a banner I'd feel like I got the shaft of a lifetime, and that I would never have a better chance to get it. Maybe because Ox already has two it's a factor. I don't know.

 

[Scrappy]

Let's make a pact. We alternate making comments on this coin every few hours or 2x day until 6 months from now there are 700 posts which will be some kind of record.
I gotta be honest, part of what motivates me is that if I (who has practically zero time to detect, let alone banner finds) found one of these and it didn't get me a banner I'd feel like I got the shaft of a lifetime, and that I would never have a better chance to get it. Maybe because Ox already has two it's a factor. I don't know.

I'm confused. Wait, this didn't make banner yet?

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

PCGS estimates There are estimates there are 187 surviving examples of 1793 Chain Cent, which falls on the higher end of estimates for the Threepence, but its a good approximation. There are an estimated 275 surviving 1792 half dismes... It's not like Mass silvers are some obscure set, I know of no colonial collector who doesn't want at least one in their cabinet. They're nice because they are relatively affordable in lower grades. In high grades, they are untouchable for most people.

 

[Ahab8]

PCGS estimates There are estimates there are 187 surviving examples of 1793 Chain Cent, which falls on the higher end of estimates for the Threepence, but its a good approximation. There are an estimated 275 surviving 1792 half dismes... It's not like Mass silvers are some obscure set, I know of no colonial collector who doesn't want at least one in their cabinet. They're nice because they are relatively affordable in lower grades. In high grades, they are untouchable for most people.

All of these numbers are a good way of putting this find in perspective as far as a scarce coin. But to me it's historical value is what makes it so amazing. I mean we go bananas over a Rev war period find....as we should. This silver coin is 100+ years older and from a time when we were still just trying to scratch and claw our way to gain a foothold in this strange land. I'm probably bias because I live in NE and my ancestors arrived in what would be Massachusettes in 1620. One of my ancestors John Billington was the first to be executed in 1630 for killing his neighbor. But it completely baffles my brain how anybody does not see this as a BANNER find. And if you don't believe it is please just give me your reasoning and make me understand. I'm open to a conversation. If not just put the damn thing up top where it belongs. I literally haven't slept since this coin was posted....and I won't until it's up there. Not gonna lie I'm getting a bit tired guys. But I got plenty of this and I'm in it for the long haul

 

[Rhode Hog]

I saw a picture recently of a NE coin and the finder said he found it in the area around the Billington Sea ,may have been dropped by your ancestor ?

 

[Scrappy]

All of these numbers are a good way of putting this find in perspective as far as a scarce coin. But to me it's historical value is what makes it so amazing. I mean we go bananas over a Rev war period find....as we should. This silver coin is 100+ years older and from a time when we were still just trying to scratch and claw our way to gain a foothold in this strange land. I'm probably bias because I live in NE and my ancestors arrived in what would be Massachusettes in 1620. One of my ancestors John Billington was the first to be executed in 1630 for killing his neighbor. But it completely baffles my brain how anybody does not see this as a BANNER find. And if you don't believe it is please just give me your reasoning and make me understand. I'm open to a conversation. If not just put the damn thing up top where it belongs. I literally haven't slept since this coin was posted....and I won't until it's up there. Not gonna lie I'm getting a bit tired guys. But I got plenty of this and I'm in it for the long haul
View attachment 1297157

I wonder how many coffees a three pence would have bought back then? I assume it wouldn't have been used for such a small transaction. Perhaps cutting a silver as such would have been a solution which brings me to my point; this coin is an uncut survivor that bounced around New England in its infancy. A scary place back then in many many ways. There's no telling who may have held that coin.

Wow. BANNER

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

I saw a picture recently of a NE coin and the finder said he found it in the area around the Billington Sea ,may have been dropped by your ancestor ?

A NE coin is the best of the best when it comes to detecting. I've only head of two others being dug, though I'm sure others have been. I'm not sure I would tell very many people until after it was sold. Even then, I'd be pretty hush-hush about it. But if you have that picture, please pm it to me!

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

Thank you all for your banner support. I really do appreciate it. But here is a quote from the Banners and how they work sticky:

"Members campaigning for votes for themselves or others ruins threads.
Do Not Do IT ! "


now, I don't think this thread is ruined at all, and I encourage you to keep making comments at your will, but let's let people make up their own minds about the banner. However, it doesn't hurt to help inform people so they can make a decision with the greatest amount of information as possible.

For or those of you who are new to the thread, if you feel it's a banner find, then I welcome and appreciate your support. If not, I hope you found it interesting and as a learning experience.

 

[Iron Patch]

For the sake of comparison, here are some estimates from PCGS for valuable, key date coins that are considered top finds/lifetime finds.

1916-D dime- estimated surviving coins 10,000+
1909 VDB-S Wheat Penny estimated surviving coins 5,000+
1877 Indian Head Cent PCGS has certified more than 2,000 with MANY more known to exist

My Noe 36 Pine Tree Threepence: between 75-200 total surviving in ALL grades. Most estimates are around 100 surviving examples.

Yes, but you are leaving out a big part.... the mintage and massive circulation for the three coins.... and those are the things along with the current numbers that determine the demand. So with that said, I think your better argument is still the history of the coin. The sad part is this one should not have to be argued for at all no no matter how you slice and dice it! (wow is that a bad choice of words when talking about MA silver)

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

Yes, but you are leaving out a big part.... the mintage and massive circulation for the three coins.... and those are the things along with the current numbers that determine the demand. So with that said, I think your better argument is still the history of the coin. The sad part is this one should not have to be argued for at all no no matter how you slice and dice it! (wow is that a bad choice of words when talking about MA silver)

Indian Head Cents, Mercury Dimes and Wheat pennies are also some of the most collected sets out there. They're cool, but not historic. People pay a lot of money for the key dates, not because they are rare (they're not), but because competition is tough.

A much larger percentage of Mass silvers are institution owned and are not going to be coming up at auction anytime soon. Advanced collectors don't often sell their higher end specimens either. Mine might not be a top grade for its variety, but it is better than average. For I were to grade it, I would have it at G8 or so, maybe G10. I'm not even sure it would get a details grade instead of a numeric grade. I don't see evidence of corrosion or environmental damage, and all the scratches are old. But I only have 60x magnification.

I know know that there are many factors that go into the banner decisions. Votes matter, rarity matters, aesthetics matter, and value matters. It appears as though the Threepence meets those, but perhaps some early votes were for both the coin and the brooch. When I first wrote this post the brooch was presented as colonial. I probably jumped the gun on that call, as it may be and likely is later. Maybe it's the "rare to the banner" Claus mentioned in the banner sticky. A Pine Tree Shilling did just recently leave the banner. Maybe it is that I have three Mass silvers, RhodeHog, Stealheadwill and several others have multiple Mass silvers and they don't have the same feeling of rarity as some others. I'm totally speculating on this, and no hint or communication has directed my speculation.

Either way, banner or no banner, I am far more interested in the historical significance of this coinage than its value or rarity. The site belonged to a very important family in Massachusetts history, and perhaps I will share that info with some or all of you once I've done my due diligence at the site.

 

[Iron Patch]

Indian Head Cents, Mercury Dimes and Wheat pennies are also some of the most collected sets out there. They're cool, but not historic. People pay a lot of money for the key dates, not because they are rare (they're not), but because competition is tough.

A much larger percentage of Mass silvers are institution owned and are not going to be coming up at auction anytime soon. Advanced collectors don't often sell their higher end specimens either. Mine might not be a top grade for its variety, but it is better than average. For I were to grade it, I would have it at G8 or so, maybe G10. I'm not even sure it would get a details grade instead of a numeric grade. I don't see evidence of corrosion or environmental damage, and all the scratches are old. But I only have 60x magnification.

I know know that there are many factors that go into the banner decisions. Votes matter, rarity matters, aesthetics matter, and value matters. It appears as though the Threepence meets those, but perhaps some early votes were for both the coin and the brooch. When I first wrote this post the brooch was presented as colonial. I probably jumped the gun on that call, as it may be and likely is later. Maybe it's the "rare to the banner" Claus mentioned in the banner sticky. A Pine Tree Shilling did just recently leave the banner. Maybe it is that I have three Mass silvers, RhodeHog, Stealheadwill and several others have multiple Mass silvers and they don't have the same feeling of rarity as some others. I'm totally speculating on this, and no hint or communication has directed my speculation.

Either way, banner or no banner, I am far more interested in the historical significance of this coinage than its value or rarity. The site belonged to a very important family in Massachusetts history, and perhaps I will share that info with some or all of you once I've done my due diligence at the site.

You just repeated my point, better to argue the history than anything else. 100-200 examples really is not that rare, and given the value with that many known, it's pretty easy to see how the super rare stuff goes through the roof.

If the Pine Tree Shilling is the reason it's a bad one because it's no more the same as the CS and CSA plates are, that are up there right now. But I will take the opportunity to say one more time... two different finds, by different people, in different places, is never the same find. I truly don't get it.

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

Here's my conspiracy theory hypothesis (and by that I mean that I don't believe a word of what I'm about to say, and neither should you. But first, let me put on my foil hat).

-It's all about the number of clicks and views. As of this writing, this thread has over 5,000 views, and it's getting roughly 500 more every day. If it were to make banner, it would get a sudden spike in views, and the taper off. Perhaps the powers at be know that I have a tendency to bump Mass silver threads, mine or not, until they either make banner or I take a break from the forum to let my frustration simmer off. Maybe they know that because it's my find that I'm less likely to just abandon the thread and it'll live on page one indefinitely, serving as a consistent source of clicks.

 

[Scrappy]

Here's my conspiracy theory hypothesis (and by that I mean that I don't believe a word of what I'm about to say, and neither should you. But first, let me put on my foil hat).

-It's all about the number of clicks and views. As of this writing, this thread has over 5,000 views, and it's getting roughly 500 more every day. If it were to make banner, it would get a sudden spike in views, and the taper off. Perhaps the powers at be know that I have a tendency to bump Mass silver threads, mine or not, until they either make banner or I take a break from the forum to let my frustration simmer off. Maybe they know that because it's my find that I'm less likely to just abandon the thread and it'll live on page one indefinitely, serving as a consistent source of clicks.

Ox I dunno, but do know it took a while for my multiple GWs to make banner as you may remember. I think it hit about 7000 views before going up top. It's all good man, I'm sure it's just a matter of time