A Flag of Caution To MDers

[bigscoop]

A bit windy perhaps but I think it is worth posting and taking note of:

Due to all the recent exposure to our hobby, and some of it not being so good, many of you may not realize what is happening behind the scenes. To date the archeological community has sent letters of protest to show producers as well as other letters of protest to lawmakers. This same thing is taking place at the county level in many areas as well and these shows are just now getting revved up, with a few other new shows still in the works. In recent weeks the media has even started questioning the character of these shows and the character of some of their participants. As a result of all this sudden exposure there is a lot of “repositioning” going on in an attempt to avoid the possible domino effects of this increased exposure and the added pressures already being produced. I said in a different post that, "the old logic of ignore it and it will go away isn’t going to cut it this time", this is because our hobby is already being overexposed and the dominoes are already being shaken.

In recent weeks there have been many threads and post regarding the effects of these shows and there are many people who feel that their effects will be minimal and that any discussion of any alternative action is both pointless and even threatening to our hobby. However, keep in mind that many of these same voices have reacted in the same manner to other discussions in the past, only to suddenly change their minds once they actually took the time to investigate the legitimacy of the proposed threats outlined in these other discussions for themselves. While they do not see the present threats at the moment I am confident they will with more time and in light of the continued and increased exposure that is being cast upon our hobby. All I ask of everyone right now is that they follow the ethics of our hobby and that they abide by any restrictions, laws, or limitations that may be in place in the area they are hunting. As the heat continues to be turned up on our hobby so will be the scrutiny surrounding our actions. “Ignorance of the law is no excuse” and that statement will certainly be subject to magnification as well. So please, everyone, don’t offer them anymore ammunition then they are already being provided.

I for one am truly concerned and I hope everyone else is too. If this makes me an extremist then so be it because I really don’t think the future of our hobby is going to fair very well given the apparent large number of Mder’s who don’t believe that all this recent exposure is already having a negative impact. Because I really appreciate my hobby, if my recent concern earns me the label of extremist then I can certainly live with that label. By all means continue to go out and enjoy the hobby, have fun and make lots of great finds, just be a responsible Mder while you’re out there, and because of all the recent exposure, make every effort to go the extra mile.

 

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[Diggit]

WELL put! ( I tried to "like" it but couldn't)

 

[fairangel]

Very well said!

 

[N.J.THer]

I agree but there maybe something good coming out of all this. I'm on my nook right now which is a pain to post off of...I'll write more tomorrow. NJ

 

[spartacus53]

I somewhat understand your concern, but I don't see it getting to a level that is out of hand. TV is TV and just pure entertainment for the most part.

Did "Baywatch" effect our beaches in a negative way I don't think so..

If you think this is a bad analogy let's probe a little deeper.. Here's a TV show about beaches, name one episode without some type of drama i.e serious falls, accident, near drownings, etc.. And yet after this shows multitude of warnings people still flock to that dangerous place.

 

[U.K. Brian]

People are right to be concerned. I made part of my income at one time recovering freshwater pearls as had many for generations. Done responsibly there was little problem....then publicity hit and in no time the beds were being destroyed, fishermen were being upset and within a couple of years a ban was imposed.

Metal detecting as a hobby has been under attack from the day it became obvious that it was more successful at recovering coins and artifacts than archaeology could ever be. Since then there's been many who are just out to look for any way to cripple our hobby purely because it makes the professionals not look very cost effective. These T.V. programmes just provide the ammunition needed to move towards a full ban and the producers and individuals taking part will move on to the next thing that will line their pockets.

 

[2screwed]

I somewhat understand your concern, but I don't see it getting to a level that is out of hand. TV is TV and just pure entertainment for the most part.

Did "Baywatch" effect our beaches in a negative way I don't think so..

If you think this is a bad analogy let's probe a little deeper.. Here's a TV show about beaches, name one episode without some type of drama i.e serious falls, accident, near drownings, etc.. And yet after this shows multitude of warnings people still flock to that dangerous place.

If millions of people in the US went metal detecting I would have to agree with you, but that's not the case. There are groups of "professionals" lobbying behind the scenes and often publicly to restrict our hobby. There has been an increase in the news lately of articles against or hobby due in a large part to these new shows and the acts of a few irresponsible people. The public has a tendency of believing what they see and hear in the news especially when it is said by "professionals". We know the majority of us are responsible, they don't.

 

[bigscoop]

Media is the most powerful tool out there, that's why businesses spend billions of dollars each year, so their products/services can reach the eyes and gather the attention of millions of potential customers. If you think nobody is watching and that these shows won't, and haven't already had an effect, then you're either living in the dark or in complete denial. The other thing you need to realize is that the ongoing conflict between treasure hunters & archeologist is actually a fight over the control of an industry. For a lot of those involved, "huge dollars and current and future jobs" are at stake. The average coinshooter and artifact collector aren't aware of the political and industrial nature of the conflict or the huge money that is at stake.

 

[mjc_lakedweller]

Very well written! It is a major concern of mine and should be of all of us here on TNet! Most people are unfamiliar with metal detecting. That being said, by watching the shows now on TV, they get the impression that everyone in our passionate hobby is a money grubbing, unethical, property damaging, unconsiderate person who is only interesting in selfish personal gain. We need to change this negative view of the uninformed, otherwise you will begin to see MD outlawed in everything from parks to beaches. Please, take heed to "Bigscoop's" comments - I respect everyone's opinion here, but we have to realize that our interests are currently under fire and need to take caution.

 

[jeff of pa]

problem is, even if the lawmakers realize this is total crap these shows are spewing,
they realize there are allot of votes in the archaeological community,
they can get or loose by their stance.
and they can sit back & Think Sure the shows are BS, But
a law will get me re-elected.
Don't forget we live in a police state.
we already have more laws then any other country in the world.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying a few non-md'ing persons don't actually watch this junk, and may be in a position of authority to have an "aha moment" and rush to enact something. I'm not saying this show is a good thing. But please understand that a WORSE thing, is for us to go out seeking sanctions, permits, permission, etc..... where none is needed now, nor will NECESSARILY be needed or required.

The key word is "necessarily". I don't believe this is the case, and here's why:

We are all subject to the psychological trick of "projection". We see something on TV, and we assume ("project") that others too are watching it, *just* like we are. But this is fallacy. For example: were you up last night watching the home shopping channel? The kardashians? reruns of Jetsons cartoons? Lizard-lick towing? etc..... No, of course not. The ONLY reason you tuned in to the geeky md'ing TV show is ...... DOH .... because you're into md'ing! Otherwise, odds are, you'd have kept flipping the channel. And the next trick of projection is the reaction a person has to something (happiness, sadness, anger, embarassment, etc...), he "projects" that all others will have the same reaction. Afterall, you came and read about it on T'net (which certainly everyone else reads too, eh?) and it's a "no-brainer" that everyone is watching this show, and running their city and county halls to enact stuff (afterall, you read it on T'net!).

And sure as h*ck, someone will come and post a scary story of some booting or pending law, so as to prop up the contention that "this show caused it". But look back over time, and you will see no shortage (in any hobby or sport mind you) of kill-joys, over the last 30+ yrs, even before the "show".

Remember, I'm not saying the show is a good thing. But the WORSE thing is for us to to grovelling, seeking sanctions, thus making ourselves a big red "x" that pose "pressing questions" in need of answers. Ie.: the old "no one cared till you asked" routine.

 

[bigscoop]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying a few non-md'ing persons don't actually watch this junk, and may be in a position of authority to have an "aha moment" and rush to enact something. I'm not saying this show is a good thing. But please understand that a WORSE thing, is for us to go out seeking sanctions, permits, permission, etc..... where none is needed now, nor will NECESSARILY be needed or required.

The key word is "necessarily". I don't believe this is the case, and here's why:

We are all subject to the psychological trick of "projection". We see something on TV, and we assume ("project") that others too are watching it, *just* like we are. But this is fallacy. For example: were you up last night watching the home shopping channel? The kardashians? reruns of Jetsons cartoons? Lizard-lick towing? etc..... No, of course not. The ONLY reason you tuned in to the geeky md'ing TV show is ...... DOH .... because you're into md'ing! Otherwise, odds are, you'd have kept flipping the channel. And the next trick of projection is the reaction a person has to something (happiness, sadness, anger, embarassment, etc...), he "projects" that all others will have the same reaction. Afterall, you came and read about it on T'net (which certainly everyone else reads too, eh?) and it's a "no-brainer" that everyone is watching this show, and running their city and county halls to enact stuff (afterall, you read it on T'net!).

And sure as h*ck, someone will come and post a scary story of some booting or pending law, so as to prop up the contention that "this show caused it". But look back over time, and you will see no shortage (in any hobby or sport mind you) of kill-joys, over the last 30+ yrs, even before the "show".

Remember, I'm not saying the show is a good thing. But the WORSE thing is for us to to grovelling, seeking sanctions, thus making ourselves a big red "x" that pose "pressing questions" in need of answers. Ie.: the old "no one cared till you asked" routine.

Tom, this is a different monster now, and the concepts/theories/etc that you are presenting have already been way surpassed. You really need to take the time to become current on what is already happening behind the scenes. When the threat of SB868 was first brought to our attention you held this same position and presented the same points of arguments, however, after actually reading the language in the proposed bill you quickly changed your position, as did I. I strongly urge you to take the time now to do some series investigation into what is really taking place. I am certain that once you take the time to do this you will at least reconsider the stance you are taking now. If you don't take the time to do this then how can you present any type of an informed, up to date, opinion or assessment?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Big-scoop, when it came to the SB868 issue, there WAS an actual, imminent, proposed law. And as I said on those threads: in that case, SURE: fight it, grovel, etc.... That is not the situation here. The situation here is the supposition that we md'rs should run around and grovel and ask permission, seek permits and clarifications, where there is NONE pending or proposed. THAT is what I'm saying is wrong. To think we need to pre-empt things, is the issue. And I'm saying that is dangerous, because that can make you/us a bigger "red x" than any silly show can make you.

And by the way: you merely say things are "now being surpassed", but I don't see any proof or citations of this? To merely cite a recent single city somewhere, is not proof. You would need to show that there is some kind of increase lately, and I fail to see any data, aside from your simply saying so. I think it's easy just to have a knee-jerk reaction when a thread about shows like this comes up: You see or hear of the latest booting, and you think "aha! it *must* be the show!". When in fact, there has been decades of kill-joys (for any hobby, for any sport, etc....) all the time. You know, it's the old hypochondriac trick: looking for the symptons after you've been told of some sort of "imminent danger", you're sure to all of the sudden start seeing them. And no matter HOW much you tell the hypochondriac that he's over-blowing things, yet to him, the fear and danger is "very real".

 

[2screwed]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying a few non-md'ing persons don't actually watch this junk, and may be in a position of authority to have an "aha moment" and rush to enact something. I'm not saying this show is a good thing. But please understand that a WORSE thing, is for us to go out seeking sanctions, permits, permission, etc..... where none is needed now, nor will NECESSARILY be needed or required.

The key word is "necessarily". I don't believe this is the case, and here's why:

We are all subject to the psychological trick of "projection". We see something on TV, and we assume ("project") that others too are watching it, *just* like we are. But this is fallacy. For example: were you up last night watching the home shopping channel? The kardashians? reruns of Jetsons cartoons? Lizard-lick towing? etc..... No, of course not. The ONLY reason you tuned in to the geeky md'ing TV show is ...... DOH .... because you're into md'ing! Otherwise, odds are, you'd have kept flipping the channel. And the next trick of projection is the reaction a person has to something (happiness, sadness, anger, embarassment, etc...), he "projects" that all others will have the same reaction. Afterall, you came and read about it on T'net (which certainly everyone else reads too, eh?) and it's a "no-brainer" that everyone is watching this show, and running their city and county halls to enact stuff (afterall, you read it on T'net!).

And sure as h*ck, someone will come and post a scary story of some booting or pending law, so as to prop up the contention that "this show caused it". But look back over time, and you will see no shortage (in any hobby or sport mind you) of kill-joys, over the last 30+ yrs, even before the "show".

Remember, I'm not saying the show is a good thing. But the WORSE thing is for us to to grovelling, seeking sanctions, thus making ourselves a big red "x" that pose "pressing questions" in need of answers. Ie.: the old "no one cared till you asked" routine.

Tom, people love these kind of shows factual or not. If they didn't "Gold Rush" wouldn't be the hit is is for the Discovery Channel. It wasn't just prospectors that tuned into watch it.
If everyone who watched the new shows read TNet I wouldn't be to concerned because they would know what bs they are. Unfortunately they don't, but they and everyone who hasn't watched them do watch and read the news and see the negative news reports. Sticking our heads in the sand and taking a wait and see attitude thinking that things will pass is a little naive in this case. I don't think its time to panic, but I certainly think its time to watch whats going on and try to do some damage control.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

2screwed, ok, for a determination of who's watching this silly md'ing show (which you assert is a lot of people), let's try out your logic. You say:

"people love these kind of shows factual or not. If they didn't "Gold Rush" wouldn't be the hit is is for the Discovery Channel. It wasn't just prospectors that tuned into watch it. "

Ok, let's plug this logic into ANYTHING on, at ANY Channel on TV, at ANY time. Pick the silliest most boring show you can think of: the home shopping channel, soap operas, the jetsons cartoon, etc.... We would have to assume that lots of people must be watching them (not just people "into the jetsons" or "into home shopping", etc...) because, .... afterall..... it "people love these shows" and they "wouldn't be a hit with the such & such channel if people weren't watching"

Do you see how your premise falls apart when we plug in other shows that even you can admit that most people would not watch? Thus your logic doesn't follow. It is the psychological trick or "projection". Remember, I'm not saying the show is good, I'm only saying that we don't want to rush out and make it worse, by making ourselves an even bigger "x".

 

[jeff of pa]

Big-scoop, when it came to the SB868 issue, there WAS an actual, imminent, proposed law. And as I said on those threads: in that case, SURE: fight it, grovel, etc.... That is not the situation here. The situation here is the supposition that we md'rs should run around and grovel and ask permission, seek permits and clarifications, where there is NONE pending or proposed. THAT is what I'm saying is wrong. To think we need to pre-empt things, is the issue. And I'm saying that is dangerous, because that can make you/us a bigger "red x" than any silly show can make you.

And by the way: you merely say things are "now being surpassed", but I don't see any proof or citations of this? To merely cite a recent single city somewhere, is not proof. You would need to show that there is some kind of increase lately, and I fail to see any data, aside from your simply saying so. I think it's easy just to have a knee-jerk reaction when a thread about shows like this comes up: You see or hear of the latest booting, and you think "aha! it *must* be the show!". When in fact, there has been decades of kill-joys (for any hobby, for any sport, etc....) all the time. You know, it's the old hypochondriac trick: looking for the symptons after you've been told of some sort of "imminent danger", you're sure to all of the sudden start seeing them. And no matter HOW much you tell the hypochondriac that he's over-blowing things, yet to him, the fear and danger is "very real".

Excellent Points, I Especially agree with the First half.

Definitely Don't go Supporting the archaeological community against these Shows,
Or go looking for people Hating where they may not exist.

Your Concern here is appreciated.

But until you see or hear a public reaction it's still only boardering on maybe

 

[jeff of pa]

Best thing we can all do is,
If at some point while we are out enjoying our Hobby,
We are Questioned on the Antics on these shows,
Explain as politely as possible that The antics on these shows are completely Phoney.
and how things really are, and hope they are Bright enough to
know your telling the truth.

 

[bigscoop]

My recent interest in the effects of these new shows has brought me into contact with a lot of new sources from all over the country and through information provided by these sources I can tell you that there is a mounting “fear factor” that wasn’t present before the airing of these shows. Case in point as to how this new fear factor is preparing to effect our hobby:

I got a phone call Sunday from a very good source in Indiana who was telling that an Mder was asked to quit detecting the flower beds of a city park last week. Now these beds had yet to be planted for the coming season and the area was mostly just dirt, and so instead of saying ok, this MDER made his position known to the park employee, that it was just dirt, no flowers yet. Needless to say, as a result of these new shows, the park officials are now expecting more of these issues and they are currently evaluating their options as a means of, and I quote, “To nip the coming problems in the butt before they get started.” So as you can see, these park officials are already gearing up to defend the park grounds from mounting problems they’ve not even had yet. And I can tell you that this same mindset is also becoming very active at other levels as well. In other words, officials are now expecting to see an increase in problems before they even have them and they are already weighing their options as a means of preventing these future problems/issues. So if you think these shows are having no effect on the people who set the rules, thing again.

Because of the sudden exposure brought on by these new shows, from here on out every single issue/problem is going to be magnified and this new fear factor is going to start taking its toll on our hobby. I fully expect the above city park to be closed to metal detecting before the year is out, not because of this one event, but because of the mounting fear factor within the park officials. Had this case happened just a couple of years ago before all this exposure, it would have been completely ignored, just as in the past. But very clearly, because of all the sudden exposure, now there is already the fear of an “expected increase” in these types of problems and many rule makers are already seriously considering their options. If we offer them no options or alternate choices, then what is left to their choosing? "No MDing" because it is the simplest solution.

 

[2screwed]

2screwed, ok, for a determination of who's watching this silly md'ing show (which you assert is a lot of people), let's try out your logic. You say:

"people love these kind of shows factual or not. If they didn't "Gold Rush" wouldn't be the hit is is for the Discovery Channel. It wasn't just prospectors that tuned into watch it. "

Ok, let's plug this logic into ANYTHING on, at ANY Channel on TV, at ANY time. Pick the silliest most boring show you can think of: the home shopping channel, soap operas, the jetsons cartoon, etc.... We would have to assume that lots of people must be watching them (not just people "into the jetsons" or "into home shopping", etc...) because, .... afterall..... it "people love these shows" and they "wouldn't be a hit with the such & such channel if people weren't watching"

Do you see how your premise falls apart when we plug in other shows that even you can admit that most people would not watch? Thus your logic doesn't follow. It is the psychological trick or "projection". Remember, I'm not saying the show is good, I'm only saying that we don't want to rush out and make it worse, by making ourselves an even bigger "x".

Tom, while I agree with you that panicking and running to the city, county and state officials asking for clarification of the laws and asking for permits is not the thing to do. The difference between the shows you mention and these new shows are that the new shows have already have a faction that will use them to their advantage in the news and with lawmakers to create a panic amongst the powers that be that our heritage is being looted for profit. Most lawmakers don't have a clue what our hobby is really about and have probably never even talked to someone in our hobby. But they have seen a negative news report, heard from or read a report from an archeologist. The government employs a lot of them from the local level on up. So they do have the lawmakers ear.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

bigscoop, are you merely assuming that the person booting the flower-box hunter in the park did so "specifically because of watching a TV show"? Or are you the one assuming this is the reason? Because if someone booting another simply says : “To nip the coming problems in the butt before they get started” does not necessarily mean they are saying this because of a TV show. I've had persons saying things like this to me before, in years past. You know, things like "if we allow you, then we have to allow any other yahoo out here, blah blah".

and you say:

"Had this case happened just a couple of years ago before all this exposure, it would have been completely ignored "

Huh? I challenge you to use the new nifty search function of T'net, and see for yourself if park bootings in the past (yup, even before the TV show) haven't been happening all along (say it isn't so!!). If you doubt me, I'll assemble a list here as long as your arm. But no doubt you'll continue to think that all the current ones are "distinctly" and "only" because of the TV show.

And to the extent that any city or county or state person, anywhere, has got a law idea up their sleeves ONLY because they were up late at night watching this silly show (which I doubt), I still say you're only going to make it worse by making yourself a big red x going around trying to pre-empt things that aren't necessarily on anyone's radar (till you ask).