A way to stop opposition to dredging (Triple-S mining).

[Lanny in AB]

I believe we need to change the term "Dredging" to Triple-S mining (Surface Suction Sluice Mining) to get ourselves removed from the horribly negative stereotypes of dredging that cropped up in the late 1800's and early 1900's:

The term dredging should be deleted from every reference to the activity and replaced by surface suction sluicing (SSS mining/Triple-S mining). The name dredge should be removed by every manufacturer on their equipment lists as well. There's just too much baggage attached to the word "dredge" and a lot of it is left over from the late 1800's and early 1900's and the negative stereotypes were rightfully earned. Those monster bucketline dredges did leave entire wastelands behind them, and those piles of waste are nothing but eye candy for the enviro-nazi press.

The surface suction mining we do today only briefly alters the stream, and the fall or spring storms quickly remove any signs of our passing. What's left is clean, highly oxygenated, silt free gravel that's prime for spawning. I've watched the fish methodically choose those surface suction sluice gravels (SSS mined gravels/Triple-S gravels) over the natural ones over and over again. The fish know something about gravel that's best for spawning, and that's why they prefer it.

By the way, Triple-S mining (surface suction sluice mining) should not occur when any spawning seasons are on, in order to kill the fishing lobby's objections. So, there goes any argument by greenies or enviro-nazi's about that element as well. (No more trampling on eggs [redds] as there would be specific prohibitions from Triple-S mining during spawning seasons.) This would only be strengthened by all Triple-S miners agreeing to never mine the banks or the riparian zone (channel banks or bars with trees or plants growing on them).

Perhaps California and other states currently under siege need to organize any renewal of Triple-S mining through regulations to clearly protect spawning seasons and riparian zones in order to kill the hate lobby organized around former objections.

All the best,

Lanny

P.S. This is only an idea put out there to get kicked around a bit as a method for discussion to see if we can't get rid of some of the negative stereotypes associated with surface suction sluicing for gold. Moreover, any time any opposition uses the word "dredge" in their arguments, we can state that the activity has been accurately and deliberately renamed as surface suction sluicing so as to avoid any future confusion with the bucketline dredges of the past.

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[kazcoro]

Agreed completely..

 

[Lanny in AB]

And of course, as an essential follow-up, no more reference to Triple-S miners as "recreational miners". Small Scale miners is the new terminology.

All the best,

Lanny

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[okbasspro]

I am proud to say I am a small scale miner practicing Eco friendly SSS-MINING

 

[Bejay]

It is a nice thought. In Oregon the small scale suction dredger's have been following the States in stream "timing"/"location" for quite a number of years.....per fish spawning/egg hatch determinations by ODFW. This has not stopped the attack on dredging. On the contrary the "greenie"/"yuppie" group of kayakers and fisherman on the Rogue River (and surrounding Medford/Grants Pass area) found a State legislator who disliked the dredgers and thus had him introduce legislation (a specific bill). This legislator ( A. Bates) also sat on a committee that allowed the bill to go into law without even having it "debated"/"heard" on the floor. It went from committee to law......which was against the rules of the state legislational policy....it violated house rules. But the Dems rule the roost.

I have some reservations as to the ability of terminology, at this point, to cause a "change in attitude".

The concept of terminology change may be productive, but I believe getting rid of "greenie" politicians,....continuing many "court challenges".... and having extensive "miner protests" are the means of attack. A suction dredge and a bucket line dredge are easily differentiated....IMHO. They know what we are; and the "greenie" attack is based on misinformation and lies. That sells their attack!


Bejay

 

[Aufisher]

Too bad they banned stream cleaners in the Golden state.

 

[gold nuggets]

You wrote it just like it happened Bejay. Lanny has some good thoughts though on changing the terminology but, I too don't think it will do much good at this time in our battles with the greenies. We need to keep on exposing all their lies and misinformation to the world, keep disproving their rhetoric with proven scientific facts and at the same time, get rid of those politicians, lawyers and judges that are anti-mining and don't have any concept of what is right for those they represent and replace them with politicians, lawyers and judges that aren't in the greenies pockets or on their well known "contributions for re-election" payroll. It will take a while to accomplish this, but IT CAN BE DONE! And needs to be done!

 

[Lanny in AB]

It is a nice thought. In Oregon the small scale suction dredger's have been following the States in stream "timing"/"location" for quite a number of years.....per fish spawning/egg hatch determinations by ODFW. This has not stopped the attack on dredging. On the contrary the "greenie"/"yuppie" group of kayakers and fisherman on the Rogue River (and surrounding Medford/Grants Pass area) found a State legislator who disliked the dredgers and thus had him introduce legislation (a specific bill). This legislator ( A. Bates) also sat on a committee that allowed the bill to go into law without even having it "debated"/"heard" on the floor. It went from committee to law......which was against the rules of the state legislational policy....it violated house rules. But the Dems rule the roost.

I have some reservations as to the ability of terminology, at this point, to cause a "change in attitude".

The concept of terminology change may be productive, but I believe getting rid of "greenie" politicians,....continuing many "court challenges".... and having extensive "miner protests" are the means of attack. A suction dredge and a bucket line dredge are easily differentiated....IMHO. They know what we are; and the "greenie" attack is based on misinformation and lies. That sells their attack!


Bejay

I've read what happened in other areas, so you have my sympathy on your current plight. And, I've read some of the outright lies that "greenies" have used in the past. That blew me away, than any organized group would willingly consort with other groups of the same mentality and culture of lying to perpetuate a blizzard of lies and misinformation to promote their environmental cause, regardless of the harm and damage they do to other people's credibility!

I agree with getting rid of the politicians that legislate as law regulations that have not met due process, but I also think that showing environmental sensitivity and responsibility can only help as well for any legislator with at least a moderate stance.

I wish you the best with your continuing battle, and I hope that common sense will one day return,

Lanny

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[Red James Cash]

Only problem is that now you would be just like the power tripping bozos using different words to mean the same thing.
We're not bombing people,we're subjecting them to a kinetic energy release.You should also be attacking Agenda 21 as that is the main culprit behind,the,your,problems.

 

[Hoser John]

I've run Reclaimanators for over 42 years and it's good-John

 

[mxer47]

After they devour everything (freedom) they will devour each other. So we at least have that to look forward to. LOL

 

[gold nuggets]

Think I would rather see them implode on themselves,
along with their lies and misinformation tactics, while I
am still young enough to work and enjoy dredging for
gold and removing toxins from my claims.

 

[Lanny in AB]

Thanks for discussion, suggestions, and for the input.

It's only an idea, and some of you score points for mentioning that changing names might not change anything regardless. So true.

It may help as a starting place for dialogue and to show some good faith however (the spawning season moratorium; riparian zone moratorium, etc.) to be willing to discuss things. In other words, it might be a way to bring something to the table in recognition that the world has turned since the first pioneers used vacuum powered water suction to recover gold from streams. Having said what I've said, I also realize that if the actions are driven by another overriding agenda, there will have to be a fundamental change somewhere along the line to address that separate issue by motivating a large majority of the people to openly oppose Agenda 21.

In the meantime, through another feedback channel, these suggestions have surfaced: Triple-S mining and toxin removal. Or, Triple-S gold recovery and toxin removal. Either of the preceding sound even friendlier and more caring than does "Dredging". In fact, I like both of them as stronger alternatives.

All the best, and thanks to all for your input and consideration,

Lanny

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[Clay Diggins]

How about calling it "Free Puppies and Cookies"? It's got a good ring to it and I doubt there would be many opposed.

Or how about "FREE Smart phones and iPads"? Go right to the heart of their concerns? Maybe "Mining for Nature"?

If we were really looking to the long term future of suction dredging I'd bet on 免费小狗 (Free Puppies).
The Chinese love gold and Free Puppies in a whole different way than greenies ever will. With the current state of affairs our efforts might be better spent learning Chinese and pricing our gold in yen.

Of course I'm just joking. You're idea is not bad if you are working with a socially responsible and ethically centered interest group. I'm not sure that's an accurate description of the the folks we are dealing with. Their motto seems to be "The ends justify the means". Using several tons of mined elemental metals per person to accomplish their greenie goals doesn't strike this crowd as even a teeny bit um... hypocritical.

If it really is all about the spin I'm thinking miners have already lost any public perception battles. Spin is really more of a Berkeley or Brown university tool to be used against the their own kind. Look towards cultural assimilation to be your long term friend in this battle. The greenies are p*ssing off way more people than they are pleasing at this point.

The tide does turn and I think we are better off being ready to launch all the mineral getting machines we can as the wave returns to our shore. I see that as a very real probability in the near future. When people are desperate for the minerals needed for an electronic society even the former greenies aren't going to object to what the machinery to supply their needs are called.

Just one man's understanding. Carry on.

 

[Lanny in AB]

How about calling it "Free Puppies and Cookies"? It's got a good ring to it and I doubt there would be many opposed.

Or how about "FREE Smart phones and iPads"? Go right to the heart of their concerns? Maybe "Mining for Nature"?

If we were really looking to the long term future of suction dredging I'd bet on 免费小狗 (Free Puppies).
The Chinese love gold and Free Puppies in a whole different way than greenies ever will. With the current state of affairs our efforts might be better spent learning Chinese and pricing our gold in yen.

Of course I'm just joking. You're idea is not bad if you are working with a socially responsible and ethically centered interest group. I'm not sure that's an accurate description of the the folks we are dealing with. Their motto seems to be "The ends justify the means". Using several tons of mined elemental metals per person to accomplish their greenie goals doesn't strike this crowd as even a teeny bit um... hypocritical.

If it really is all about the spin I'm thinking miners have already lost any public perception battles. Spin is really more of a Berkeley or Brown university tool to be used against the their own kind. Look towards cultural assimilation to be your long term friend in this battle. The greenies are p*ssing off way more people than they are pleasing at this point.

The tide does turn and I think we are better off being ready to launch all the mineral getting machines we can as the wave returns to our shore. I see that as a very real probability in the near future. When people are desperate for the minerals needed for an electronic society even the former greenies aren't going to object to what the machinery to supply their needs are called.

Just one man's understanding. Carry on.

You certainly have some solid ideas in your post, and the idea that utilizing "several tons of mined elemental metals per person to accomplish their greenie goals" is indeed hypocritical. Nonetheless, a hypocritical reality has neither seemed to slow nor hinder them in the past as the ends always do seem to justify their means. This seems to drive a reinvention that is always essentially imminent, as when they were caught falsifying facts to promote global warming only to reinvent their true cause as the impossible to assault premise of climate change. (Global warming?That's never what they really meant, it was always about climate change.)

Moreover, the fact that greenies are currently in vogue politically may include the seeds of their decline when the current wave of their support, facilitated by the complicity of the current government, reaches the limit of its popular shore, as all such waves do.

I for one am ready to see the end of that wave, for your point about the reality of the needs of an electronic society, with its reliance on essential minerals, might just be what trumps their agenda in the future. Your thought in that regard is very perceptive.

On a different note, the Chinese do seem postured to be the world's next superpower, and there's no hidden agenda on their part about their love for gold. Furthermore, the massive federal debt backed by paper will one day require a reckoning, and the Chinese haven't been posturing themselves with all of their gold buying without cause. They have positioned themselves to take advantage of an upcoming shift in power.

I'll grant that my idea for initiating change is likely oversimplified; nevertheless, the current back and forth with those in political power seems to be at an impasse, and a new spin might not hurt as the old image has been too successfully demonized by the enviros in my opinion.

Just my take on how things are currently stalled with respect to surface suction mining, and a reflection of my optimistic belief that there's still a socially responsible and ethically centered majority out there that can not only be reached, but that can initiate change.

All the best,

Lanny

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[Clay Diggins]

As always you've made a very cohesive reply Lanny.

If you really want to change the meme you will need training. Holly and Heath have been the masters of public perception for 15 years. Save up some money, start an activist non-profit and sign up for their SPIN academy.

SPIN

Just hope they don't figure out what your plans are. Holly will take money from anyone but if her clients figure out who she is training her organization would lose all that yummy Tides funding.

 

[Bejay]

Kind of like the political environment spin: "Obama Care" if it had worked/will work/and was not such a mess. "Affordable Health Plan"......once it showed the typical way Gov screws things up.

But the reality is: it is what it is........the results/facts speak for themselves.

If we want to change things and rid our society of the "anti crowd's" power we have to become aggressive and promote accepted peer review science, and demand that politicians MUST legislate according to known/proven/facts.....no hypothetical concepts. Might adversely impact people like Al Gore.

With that in mind, why not demand that legislative laws "based on scientific evidence"... "MUST".... meet the same criteria as that of the food and drug administration. Place the same criteria on "new science legislation" as the Gov does on drug companies that want to introduce a new medicine. Get such a law passed and the ESA and EPA will be set back a few.

But the reality is the green agenda is in itself the accepted. Maybe America is ready to comprehend "peer review science" and demand it. Then maybe such terms: "might cause"...."could potentially cause"......"may lead to risk of"....etc .....etc would disappear from legislative support.

Bejay

 

[Lanny in AB]

Bejay,

As I reflect on this whole renaming issue, a thought came to me. Not that long ago, there used to be a cereal crop known as Rapeseed, and widely called that. Yup, that's right. But as that name has an odious connotation, it now more commonly called Canola or oilseed, so the negative connotation is instantly dropped, and now most people don't refer or don't know the original commonly used name. Hopefully, we can somehow overcome the negative connotation of "dredge" in surface suction mining by distancing this modern mining method from the highly destructive behemoths of the past, and through education, lose the baggage that goes with it.

In reference to your post, you've voiced some great thoughts and some good possible solutions.

Your concerns are well-founded too, and I like your analogy in reference to pharmaceutical companies and their due process. I agree that the "greens" should have to face some similar due diligence instead of all of their "might cause"...."could potentially cause"......"may lead to risk of" BS. I think it would be wonderful if somehow they had to prove their science instead of only proving they can find sympathetic, uninformed ears that are itching to promote a "junk science" agenda.

All the best,

Lanny

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[Bejay]

For years I watched the USFS and BLM promote the cutting of timber on public lands they administered. The economic importance of harvest off of public lands was second to none in the great northwest (Oregon, Washington and Idaho). The "greenie" agenda shut it down years ago and now only a pittance of harvest comes from public lands administered by those two agencies. One of the critical issues used by the "greenies" to stop harvest was adronomous fish protection....(the other the spotted owl and marbled murellet ). The BLM and USFS tried changing the connotation of "Timber Harvest" to "Sustained Yield"....which was to no avail.

When this harvest was curtailed the USFS and BLM immediately lost their vocation and began focusing on "fish habitat" enhancement. I was asked to help convey to the public many issues for the USFS.

So now the focus became fish habitat...and the "greenies" are all about saving fish. So why not compare the fish habitat enhancement that is currently being done: structures, deep pools and even physically placing clean spawning gravels in streams to that of the benefits of utilizing small scale suction dredges to achieve the same results.

Of course the answer is it would take forming a non profit organization whose mission is to enhance salmon/steelhead ecosystems; and then incorporate the benefits of suction dredging along with all the other accepted enhancement projects. Now of course one would have to create public awareness and support. One would have to gain revenue from a public that wants to see such achievements. With active public support the politicians have a hard time supporting the anti crowd.

Why do I suggest such a concept? The reason is that I effectively did it on another, but similar issue. I actually had many of the "greenie" group founders calling me personally and saying: "do you realize you are making us look like fools"? Of course the truth hurt them! Of course their lies were countered with facts that conveyed the opposite of what they were spinning!

I call this tactic: Riding the "Good Ship Lollipop". The "greenie" groups have been utilizing this "do good"/"save the enviro" concept for a long time. They receive a lot of revenue under the guise of "doing good". Sometimes the best defense is a "great offense". Changing the concept of small scale suction dredging may play a far bigger role in gaining public support than merely changing the name.

It never hurts to give consideration to trying to remedy the anti dredging issue...and changing the name has worked on many consumer products. But I believe it takes much more. And the "much more" requires a lot of work. The "greenies" are good at doing the work....as it seems they have a lot of time on their hands to do so.

I have suggested my "non-profit" idea to many currently trying to stop the anti dredging legislation we see here in the United States. To date such a concept has not been taken up. A number of people need to be a part of such a concept. I call them movers and shakers. A skilled attorney is needed. A skilled film industry person(s) are needed. A great effective public speaker/communicator is needed. A accredited science person is needed. Today one would want a great web page orchestrator as well. Then of course you need people who can do LOTS of other specific tasks as well. You need commitment by those signing on....as it takes lots of work. Then of course having a geographic centralized corps group is beneficial....so that agenda meetings can be orchestrated.


Bejay

 

[Hoser John]

They ,relaimation plans,up here have utilized dredges-sans the boxes-to reclaim many MANY areas,Clear creek especially. . So does the Bureau of Reclaimation and the BLM. Massive dredge 48" used here a few years back to suck up about a million yards of gunk off Keswick dam and pumped over 1 1/2 miles over a 660' dam to contain by the EPA. Cool tool with many pumps along the way. 2 HUGE towers on the barge for positive displacement and remotely run-John