Age at time of death?

[luckywolf13]

Note: This artifact (skull) was taken from it's original site almost a hundred years ago and offered to a museum, who declined it. I did not remove it, but I am very interested in it and am making sure it is better taken care of.
My question for you all, which I don't know if anyone will know the answer to, is how old do you think she was at time of death? The rest of her body was lost a long time ago, so I only have the skull plates to go on. Luckily, gender was established early on. Anyway, any ideas?

 

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[jeff of pa]

Sorry I can't find anything with Pictures to help age a Skull
other then this. But I would "Guess" she was fairly Young,
By today's standards. (late 20's Late 30's pure guess) the Sutures are all visible & sharp.

As far as here in Indian Artifacts. If your sure it is Indian, It
may be Illegal to posses it. If your Just guessing


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suture_(joint)

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Might not be a good idea to keep this one here.

 

[GatorBoy]

Ya think

 

[Charl]

If you know the circumstances of it's removal from internment makes it Native American for certain, tribes local to where it was found have the right to claim and re bury it. Personally, I would not worry about getting into trouble at this late stage if it was removed from a grave 100 years ago. You can contact the office of your state archaeologist. I would do that and explain the background, rather then go directly to a local tribe. That said, I doubt as well that dealing directly would get you in trouble with them. You're trying to do the right thing after all.

Sometimes natives here in RI buried the dead in refuse pits. With the garbage! Seems pretty disrespectful, but, for whatever reason, it happened. When fragments of a human skull cap came up from a shellfish refuse pit in a corn field one Spring, we buried the remains in the woods alongside the field. Enclosed the pieces in oyster shells from the refuse pits. Sprinkled in flakes and tobacco, said a prayer for him, and that was that. We did right by "Harry", as I called him. We knew there had been a refuse pit burial at one time and did what was respectful without interrupting the operations of a 300 year old farm. There was no burial ground in the field. Just evidence that in the distant past, someone was tossed away with the garbage rather then given a more respectful send off.
Often before hunts, I ask for help from my own ancestors and old timer mentors who have passed on. And "you too, Harry, we did right by you, how 'bout a nice point today?"

Museums are required now to return remains to the appropriate tribes. You cannot own these things, so coming forward means doing the right thing.

 

[mainejman]

Getting that in the ground would be a top priority to me.I don't believe it needs to be done by any body in particular.It just needs to be done with respect.And soon...mjm

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Impossible to tell from photograph if skull is American Indian, or a skull legally imported from India...

 

[Charl]

Impossible to tell from photograph if skull is American Indian, or a skull legally imported from India...

I did not realize that possibility, and some google research showed me that India was indeed the chief supplier, and certainly long ago enough to make that a possibility. They banned it in 1986, but they were the main suppliers 100 years ago....

At the same time, the poster did say it was removed from it's original site, which would be true in either case, but might suggest an American origin. The way it was worded suggested he knew the circumstances of it's removal, as opposed to it's importation....

"Note: This artifact (skull) was taken from it's original site almost a hundred years ago and offered to a museum, who declined it". Worded that way, does not sound like an import, but then again 100 years ago and the poster may not realize it's true origin, but worded that way just makes an import seem less likely then an origin here.....

 

[jeff of pa]

I did not realize that possibility, and some google research showed me that India was indeed the chief supplier, and certainly long ago enough to make that a possibility. They banned it in 1986, but they were the main suppliers 100 years ago....

Yes they could be picked up for $100 dollars before the ban on imports.
Now you'll pay 10 - 12 times that on Ebay.

It may also be why the Museum wasn't interested.
To them Purchasing Skulls from India would have been a waste of time.

like buying a Chevy Hubcap to display.

 

[Charl]

Yes they could be picked up for $100 dollars before the ban on imports.
Now you'll pay 10 - 12 times that on Ebay.

It may also be why the Museum wasn't interested.
To them Purchasing Skulls from India would have been a waste of time.

like buying a Chevy Hubcap to display.

Got you. Just going by how the poster introduced it, although he himself was not there, it sounded like it was "removed " from the ground rather then "imported". But I also don't want to read too much into so few words, either. It's not enough to draw a conclusion as I suggested. Maybe the poster can clarify if he does know more about the circumstances at all.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I did not realize that possibility, and some google research showed me that India was indeed the chief supplier, and certainly long ago enough to make that a possibility. They banned it in 1986, but they were the main suppliers 100 years ago....

At the same time, the poster did say it was removed from it's original site, which would be true in either case, but might suggest an American origin. The way it was worded suggested he knew the circumstances of it's removal, as opposed to it's importation....

"Note: This artifact (skull) was taken from it's original site almost a hundred years ago and offered to a museum, who declined it". Worded that way, does not sound like an import, but then again 100 years ago and the poster may not realize it's true origin, but worded that way just makes an import seem less likely then an origin here.....

Might not be a good idea to keep this one here.

The point of my post was pictures of a skull on TN website isn't really proof it is actually American Indian or of any law being broken.....

Just like you can't be arrested for picture of a pot bud.....

 

[theviking]

The point of my post was pictures of a skull on TN website isn't really proof it is actually American Indian or of any law being broken.....

Just like you can't be arrested for picture of a pot bud.....

What?? Stupid people get busted all the time as a result of posting pictures of "pot buds" and other illegal drugs to social media. Maybe the act of posting the pic is not illegal, but it does give law enforcement enough to get a warrant to search your property. It happens quite often.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

What?? Stupid people get busted all the time as a result of posting pictures of "pot buds" and other illegal drugs to social media. Maybe the act of posting the pic is not illegal, but it does give law enforcement enough to get a warrant to search your property. It happens quite often.

And your point is what?

There is nothing illegal about posting a picture of pot, pictures is not possession. If someone is busted it is for what they have in their possession, not from a picture.

As I also stated there is no way to tell if skull is from a native American grave 50 years ago, or from India 50 years ago......

 

[theviking]

My point is that people get busted all the time as a result of posting pics of illegal drugs.

 

[theviking]

Also, I never argued the fact that posting the pic was illegal. So what was the point of your response?

 

[jeff of pa]

Note: This artifact (skull) was taken from it's original site almost a hundred years ago and offered to a museum, who declined it. I did not remove it, but I am very interested in it and am making sure it is better taken care of.
My question for you all, which I don't know if anyone will know the answer to, is how old do you think she was at time of death? The rest of her body was lost a long time ago, so I only have the skull plates to go on. Luckily, gender was established early on. Anyway, any ideas?
View attachment 1159090
View attachment 1159091

other points that seem to be passed over are in red

Where ever it is, It appears he was only able to Photograph the Top Plate.
whether that is because only the top Plate exists.
Or where ever it is only the top plate is visible.

Perhaps it was cut for medical use years ago like most on Ebay

 

[Charl]

The point of my post was pictures of a skull on TN website isn't really proof it is actually American Indian or of any law being broken.....

Just like you can't be arrested for picture of a pot bud.....

Oft times, I imagine, the first thought that pops into ones head will vary with one's experience and knowledge. I had not even thought of India, because I had no knowledge of their role supplying human skeletal remains over a long period of time. So a heck of a good thing to point out. Instead, what popped into my head was the common practice of collecting Native American skeletons. In 1865 and 1868, for instance, the US Surgeon General sent orders to Army officers to collect such remains for the US Army Medical Museum. In 1868 alone, some 4000 skulls were collected, many from graves, some from battlefields. Some the same day of burial! And I thought of the popularity among some collectors of adding such grave looting trophys to their collections even well into the 1900's. So, different thoughts appear depending on things like that. First thing I thought of when I saw "100 years ago" was, " yep, there was a lot of that goin on".

But, absolutely no assumptions, just goes to show you how what you already know can lead your mind in different directions. Had I known about the trade in skeletons in India, that might have popped into my mind right off.....

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

My point is that people get busted all the time as a result of posting pics of illegal drugs.

Only if they are caught growing or selling drugs, not for posting picture.

Also, I never argued the fact that posting the pic was illegal. So what was the point of your response?

Your original post was the purpose..

What?? .

Purpose of my post was that a picture of a skull on T N was not illegal just as a picture of a pot bud is not illegal.

What?? Stupid people get busted all the time as a result of posting pictures of "pot buds" and other illegal drugs to social media. Maybe the act of posting the pic is not illegal, but it does give law enforcement enough to get a warrant to search your property. It happens quite often.

 

[jeff of pa]

Oft times, I imagine, the first thought that pops into ones head will vary with one's experience and knowledge. I had not even thought of India, because I had no knowledge of their role supplying human skeletal remains over a long period of time. So a heck of a good thing to point out. Instead, what popped into my head was the common practice of collecting Native American skeletons. In 1865 and 1868, for instance, the US Surgeon General sent orders to Army officers to collect such remains for the US Army Medical Museum. In 1868 alone, some 4000 skulls were collected, many from graves, some from battlefields. Some the same day of burial! And I thought of the popularity among some collectors of adding such grave looting trophys to their collections even well into the 1900's. So, different thoughts appear depending on things like that. First thing I thought of when I saw "100 years ago" was, " yep, there was a lot of that goin on".

But, absolutely no assumptions, just goes to show you how what you already know can lead your mind in different directions. Had I known about the trade in skeletons in India, that might have popped into my mind right off.....

I believe that was allot of the Reason India was cut off.
Fear someone was committing Grave Robbery or worse to make a buck

 

[theviking]

Thats all neat and fancy and stuff, but everything I said is factual. Peeing up hill is not illegal, but most smart people just dont do it.