ALERT!!! Kentucky Bill Resurfaced!!!

[teverly]

IF the bill in ky is the same one that was trying to be passed before then they are trying to take away private property rights from the landowner.
And the archies will be the ones that will determine what is archeologically significant not you or i.
Everyone that detects or bottle digs ect..should send emails to the sponsors and supporters of this bill against its passing ,regardless of where you live.If they get away with it in KY then that will help archies and others that dont want detecting to pass bills in there states.
Mark has done an excellent job over the years of keeping track of these things and helping defeat them.wE MUST ALL BE INVOLVED IN STOPPING THIS THEFT OF YOUR/OUR PRIVATE PROPERTY RIGHTS!!!!

 

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[Mark S.]

Here is another one.

http://www.archaeologynews.org/stor...diggers scour land for 19th century artifacts

If anyone doubts the intention of this Pollack character this should convince you. What really ticks me off is how he thinks he has any say so in Ohio!!! This shows you just how pompous this guy is. I will be writing a letter to this newspaper asking them why they are interviewing someone from KY concerning OH laws.

I will also be contacting this Donna Neary on why Mr. Pollack feels he has any say so in OH.

Mark S.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Mark, I'm sure that the writers of that news piece went to David, for an interview. No harm done by someone commenting on issues in another state. Heck, look, I'm sending Dave emails, and he asks "why do you care about KY?". So, just as we md'rs look across state lines to see the "climate" elsewhere, so too do archie purists. Better not to 'diss him for that, lest he too, think he can ignore out of state comments about what goes on in KY, etc...

At the end of the article "Ken Tankersley" says that 1979's ARPA forbids excavating and collecting and such from "public" lands. What he fails to tell the reader is that this 1) applies only to Federal lands, not state, county and city level lands, and 2) only applies to specific archaeologically significant items. Others are exempted. For example coins less than 100 yrs. old, arrowheads on top of the ground, etc...

The link you cite is an AP story picked up, so far, by several different Ohio papers. I think I too will send a response to the letter to the editor there at one of them.

 

[cavers5]

Well, I've always like Ken. To me, he was a straightshooter.

In my opinion, if Dave is poking his nose somewhere, he's trying to drum up money. He is co-director of the KAS and as that is jointly administered by the University of Kentucky and they just received a major kick in the rump by the state government, I'll bet ole Dave is worried about his paychecks--yes, plural. Not only is he site protection manager at KHC, but he is also ruling KAS, which has the contract for the state parks, etc. Also, he has his wife/girlfriend working for him, which, if she is his wife, that is against UK's policy.

Now, I don't know about you folks, but if all that ain't a conflict of interest, then I don't know what is! That just ain't right! And, are they held accountable for any work that they've done or done in error?

A big resounding...NO!

There is no proper checks and balances in this department, so now we see how he and she can get by with their "conflict of interest!"

They are going to need more grants, out-of-state projects, and more laws (so they can say they are the only professionals that know how to take care of these archaeological "things") to keep getting their money, paid meals, paid trips to arch conferences that includes occasional international travel, etc.!

Folks, I'm telling you. It's not even close to being amusing. It's honestly disgusting!

Cavers5

 

[Tom_in_CA]

For those of you keeping up with this, here's the latest:

I put a call in to a KY lawyer named "Brian P. Gilfedder" a week ago. He is based in Lexington. I subscribe to a service that allows consultations on the phone, so it wasn't a real "bank-breaker" to run this issue by him

I gave him all the statutes that some KY md'rs are fearful might apply to them. Ie.: 164.705, 164.735, 164.725, and 164.730. I asked him to study those, to see if they could be construed to say that any excavations, on any public land, is illegal in KY.

He studied them, and got back to me this morning with his answer. He said that they apply to archaeologically significant sites and items. NOT all KY commonwealth land. Yes, any archaeologically significant site ANYWHERE in the commonwealth, but not that all land is an archaeological site. There are such sites within the commonwealth, and there are other sites in the commonwealth that are not archaeologically signficant. So unless a school yard had been deemed an archaeological site, no one is going to run afoul of the law by taking a spade to the ground, sandbox, etc... He laughed when I suggested to him that some, under the color of authority, had suggested this! He did say that he also looked for court case precedents, and found none, where this law had been an issue.

As for the ".......and objects" clause, he said "simple, you report the find to the state archaeologist, and they may or may not deem the site to be, henceforth, archaeologically significant. If they do, then yes, you can not detect there, thereafter. But the hunting and finding of the object, is not illegal.

I asked him to put this opinion in writing, but he declined, unless I paid him for that service. I guess my membership to this service covers phone consultations, but letters are extra

I then went on to tell him how some, in KY, are running scared thinking they may be breaking the law in a park or school yard, based on things the heritage counsel is saying. He said that there are 2 solutions:

1) someone can test it by purposefully getting a ticket (go dig a penny in a modern school yard for example, and invite archies and a cop to come watch you, at a pre-arranged date and time). Fight it, get it thrown out (which it will be in the wording of the law), and then you have a court precedent. This all assumes you'd get a ticket to begin with though.

or:

2) Write a letter to the Kentucky Attorney General, asking for an interpretation. He said that they sometimes issue interpretations, without an actual case before them.

 

[cavers5]

Whew!

Thanks, Tom. I'm sure I speak for all of us reading this that we appreciate all the work you're doing! I also spoke with a few attorneys. I'm lucky that I have friends that are attorneys!

As for the Attorney-General's office, I can help out a tadbit there, considering as to how I just met and spoke with a gentleman there this week.

The Attorney-General's office is swamped, and when I say swamped, I mean beyond swamped! They cannot answer all the requests for opinions they get. I was personally told that they have letters there from ten years ago that have not been answered yet.

So, I don't think we would get much help there, unless it became a huge court case issue with tons of publicity, etc. etc. Believe me, their ears would perk up then! If my health progresses, I am going to pursue this relentlessly, until the day I die.

Now, that being said, the Attorney-General's office DID RECENTLY proffer an opinion having to do with the Kentucky Heritage Council and the Office of State Archaeology charging fees to consultants for the use of files (if I remember correctly.) There is an actual court case going on with at least one cultural resource company based in Lexington, KY. I've been following this for awhile now and it's very interesting. There appears to be evidence of denying consultants the use of files for one reason or another.

I wonder if this could fall under discrimination laws as well. I say this because I know that I have been discriminated against. It's just a matter of gathering proof, which believe me, I'm in the process of.

Now, that being said, here's the thing: Yes, the KHC office is in Frankfort. However, Dave Pollack has an office in the same building with the Office of State Archaeology, the state archaeologist. Dave maintains this office for his job as co-director of the Kentucky Archaeological Survey. These offices are located in Lexington, Kentucky and are affiliated with the University of Kentucky. Is he the primary link between the OSA and the KHC?

Why does the University of Kentucky let its employees get by with such behavior and activities? The way the gossip mill runs, you know University officials have to know something of what's going on? Don't they know the truth?

I'm ashamed of that University because of the actions of these people. It does not appear they are there for the love of learning or to promote the field. It appears they are there to cash in as much as they can and promote themselves. Could this be true? Why does the Kentucky Archaeological Survey need two directors? Why does the University of Kentucky need to sponsor two field crews: the Program for Archaeological Research and the Kentucky Archaeological Survey? Is it not a conflict of interest that Dave has two jobs being what they are? Also, if he and his gal are married, why does the University turn a blind eye to their own policy? Is Gwynn Henderson getting two checks for being education coordinator and an employee of the Kentucky Archaeological Survey? How many checks are coming Dave's way?

I think I can make a request for that information. It should be considered public information as they are state employees.

What state office checks on the actions of these people? Does anybody know? Who can hold them accountable?

Oh, and folks, believe me, this is just the tip of the iceberg!

Cavers5

Brief moment of amusement: Singing: "Just another day in paradise,"
Ooops! What was I thinking....I mean Kentucky!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hi cavers. I'll buy you a cup of coffee next time I'm in KY. No wait ...... a steak dinner!

As for the politics and personal relations of the Dave & Gwynn thing, I think that's a side issue. The point of the matter is "what does the law say?"

Thanx for the input on how far behind the attorney general's office is, in answering letters. Go figure, why should they be bothered? Afterall, if they were quick to answer such questions, they would quickly turn into nothing more than other people's research tool-people. It's a shame people can't get an opinion on how something would turn out, if it hit the fan, but on the other hand, you can't blame them for not wanting to be people's personal secretaries, etc.... And of course, each individual case might have different merits, so they don't want to go on record saying something that might be mis-interpretted, etc...

So that only leaves option #1. Since I'm in CA, I can't volunteer for this. Any takers?

 

[cavers5]

Whew!

Well, we're doing our fair share. I can't dig and am due for surgery, so I'll be out for a little while. My son drove me this week. I had a doc's appt. down that way.

Is there any other way to get them to change the website? I don't even know who does that website. I need to check on that.

Well, at least other people who read this can know what's going on.

Mark S., any ideas? Perhaps the FMDAC?

Cavers5

 

[teverly]

I believe Mark is involved with the FMDAC and if you go to their web site they usually have upcoming legislation from any state..Escpecially involving detecting,panning,sluicing ect......
Again,the people who are trying to pass this will be the ones to decide if a site is archeological or not..the landowner will have no say.

 

[cavers5]

Exactly.

When I emailed my reps, I explained that, in my opinion, HB 295 and HB 296 intruded too much on private property rights and gave the KHC too much power. I also related that there was no proper system of checks and balances within or monitoring the KHC.

Oh well. If any KY people read this, they can check it out for themselves. I'm doing my fair share.

Maybe Mark S will check in.

Cavers5

 

[luckyinkentucky]

I've been following this bill every year that it resurfaces. I've spoken to several of my state reps, and they all assure me it won't make it past the 'Local Government' phase. It usually gets 'shot down' in the voting to go to the house floor. I am a good friend of Tommy Thompson's, and he assures me that this bill is not in the best interest of most lawmakers and will not pass! The Kentucky Constitution will arise every time this bill is brought up on the floor. Kentucky is one of the great states where the Constitution isn't amended every time a politician wants to mold it to their liking.

 

[SgtSki in MI]

When I get back to Iraq, I am going on active duty. It looks like I will be going to FT Campbell, KY. I really don't like what I'm reading about Kentucky OR Tennessee. The way I read this crap, I cannot detect on any public land in Kentucky period, and In Tennessee I can only detect on public land if i am specifically looking for an item belonging to me which I lost. Is that the gist of what I read about these two states? If so, who wants to buy a Minelab Explorer XS with a 10.5" and 8" coils and an X-1 probe, a Fisher CZ-5 with 3 coils and a hard case, a Fisher 1236-X2, a brand-spanking-new-in-the-box MXT and a BH Pioneer 202? It looks like I'll no longer be needing them and don't feel like having them sit around for 5 years.

This is a crock and what are we doing about it? Why aren't manufacturers of metal detectors and accessories banding together to form a lobby to fight this? These laws cost them MONEY in the long run. FMDAC does a great job of NOTIFYING us of these laws and proposals but what is being DONE to knock down these proposals and to rescind unfair laws against detectorists already on the books? Why arean't there rallies at the state capitols when these laws are coming up for vote? I am just one person and I've written letters and signed online petitions, for what infinitessimal little that's worth...these stupid laws go forward anyway.

On second though, I'll keep my detectors and be making a lot of road trips to St Louis on weekends until the Nazi Archies have their way with our nether regions there too.

Why do I have to feel like it's me against the world every time I power up a detector? Why do I have to keep a weather eye out for busybodies and ill-informed people whenever I'm detecting in a area that I know full well it's OK for me to be in?

 

[cavers5]

You're right...and thank you for serving. I wish you didn't have to go.

You know, our laws are supposed to be made by us.

Come on down and detect! There's still private property around Fort Campbell, just have to get permission!

Cavers5

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hey SgtSki in MI, you say: "The way I read this crap, I cannot detect on any public land in Kentucky period". I don't think you read this whole thread carefully. Read again. You CAN detect on public land in Kentucky, "as long as it's not an archaeological site". Read each of my parts of this thread, and you'll see. It was someone else who came on with the fear, but it was un-founded, when the law was correctly read.

Thanx for your service to our country! Now go knock 'em dead and find some seateds, gold coins, etc...!

 

[SgtSki in MI]

OK well that's good news, I guess I misinterpreted what I was reading. As far as Tennessee goes, I guess that I have to go look for those keys that I lost and just have to deal with all of those pesky crusty old IH's, LCs and weird-looking dimes and quarters with some lady on them that come out of the ground shiny for some reason while I am looking for aforementioned keys that I lost.

I found a site that has a lot of finds from the Ft Donelson area near Dover TN which really confuses me though. If it's public land how are they able to detect? Also the site is within the Land Between the Lakes National Recreation Area, and supposedlly no detecting is allowed there either, unless I read that wrong too.

I don't think I'll be at Campbell until late October though, so I need to establish some new friendships and acquaintances in the meantime. Also, what clubs are in the area? I look forward to joining one or more, if there are any nearby.

Thanks much for the clarification on public land hunting in KY

HH,
SgtSki

 

[cavers5]

Hi,

Now, supposedly there is no detecting on National Forest land, although I've heard that you can get permits to detect on Corps land near the lakes. If I understand correctly, you cannot hunt on state-owned property. I don't know if you can hunt on Base or not.

Since Tom appears to know more, maybe he can elaborate.

Hope your hunting is good!
Cavers5

 

[SgtSki in MI]

I don't intend to hunt on-post. I have been in the military in some way, shape, or form for 24 years (13 1/2 years active-duty USMC and 10 1/2 years Michigan Army National Guard with 2 1/2 of those years being active-duty time as well for Iraq Deployments). During all of that time, it's been my experience that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to metal detect on federal military installations. Ft Huachuca ans Ft Bliss come to mind as two places that are especially Nazi-fied on the subject. At FT Bliss they have this retired Lieutenant Colonel who is their historical director (this guy is also a defector from the East German Army, so I have no idea how he became an officer in the first place) anyway he's a real bear. Just inside the main gate is an old parade field, no longer is use except as a play area for youth soccer and stuff and it just screams "Detect Me'! and at Ft Huachuca there are lots of areas that look great on a post dating to 1877. But be seen with a detector at either of these places and the ARPA-Nazis and such will swoop out of thin air and have their way with your posterior orifice.

Caver, I know you're an archaeologist, but as far as I can see you're one of the good ones who realize that 99.5% of detectorists are relatively harmless to your field and are recovering items for the most part that have no historic or archaeological significance whatsover. (I had to make that last part bold because of what else I'm about to say). That being said, the majority of these guys, like this Pollack character, infuriate and sicken me to no end. These people misuse their position to plant embellishments and outright lies about detectorists in the ear of lawmakers to forward their ALL MINE!!! agendas. These people call detectorists looters, vandals, and thieves of history when they themselves have hoards secreted away in their homes that will rival the collection of the most successful hobby detectorist that you can name. This stuff will never see the light of day again, be it in a museum display or otherwise. So who, in fact, is the looter and criminal, a sanction and blessing from the state notwithstanding? Several active detectorists share what they find with school classes and the like. I myself have donated trade tokens to my local historical society because they had direct relevance to the history of the area. I have also had my finds on display a few times at my community library's local history room and it generated SEVERAL invitations to detect on the property of persons who saw it.

These people are so elitist, greedy, snobbish, and so up their own backsides with their self-importance that they would rather have a metallic object deteriorate into a mere soil discoloration than to have somebody other than themselves discover it. either that or they would rather see a site covered over with a parking lot or strip mall (ArchieSpeak: "Encapsulated") rather than have someone else find it. I myself try to keep the locations of my finds cryptic and under my hat as best as possible, because I am 100% positive that there are archies who lurk on this forum sites and several others spying for another location to swoop in on, take over, shut everyone out of, and claim THEY found.

...but I'm not bitter

I would love to see a Political Action Committee form that actively protects our hobby comprised of Manufacturers, Dealers, Publishers, Clubs, and individuals that watchdog attacks on our hobby and who go directly to State and Federal lawmakers to counter this. Add to that hotel owners, restaurant folks, Good Sam Club, KOA and other people who benefit from our money when we come to detect in their area If there was something like that out there I for one would gladly jump into it with both feet. I don't think most of these politicians care one lick about how many phone calls, letters, emails, or petitions they receive from any of us......we need people willing to confront them on a face-to-face basis. This "honey catches more flies than vinegar" approach isn't working and with each year more and more restrictions are heaped on our hobby, mostly due to these greedy clowns with their State Artifact Snatching and Grave-Robbing Permits in their pockets. Here's another euphemism that I suggest be more prevalent in this ongoing war with the system: "The Squeaky Wheel Gets the Grease".

I'm tired of this persecution and being falsely portrayed as a criminal, vandal, looter, and thief. As soon as I retire from the military in 4 1/2 years I aim to be a "Squeaky Wheel"!

But in the meantime, where's some good spots to detect in Christian, Todd, Trigg, Caldwell, Hopkins, or Muhlenberg Counties?

HH,
SgtSki

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I dunno about Tennessee. It was only the KY dialogue that captured my interest, leading me to snoop through that. But for US Army bases in general, it might vary "climate to climate", depending on powers-that-be at each locale. For example, I'm right next to Ft. Ord here in CA (near Monterey). We detect that ALL the time, right out in the open, and never have a problem. Both before and after this base closed (early 1990s). Same for Camp Roberts by Paso Robles. Hunter Ligget might be a problem, but only because the base in rich with indian history, and indian archies are the most anal out there. At SF's presidio, a person would run into a problem, only because it's one of the most historic sites in CA (the first fort in this part of CA, and riddled with historic buildings)

But getting back to the bases where we've never been bothered at (the WWII era ones), it strikes me as odd that.... if you were to go high enough up the chain of command, and ask enough questions, you would probably find someone to tell you "absolutely not". I mean, if you waived a copy of ARPA in one hand, and a shovel in the other, what do you THINK they would say? But back in the age of innocence, in the 1970s, it was just "understood" in the detecting community here (there was a club at that time), that Ft. Ord was a place to go. It never even dawned on anyone that there might be a problem, since ..... afterall, it's an open base (no "checkpoint charlie" or whatever). As the years progressed during the '80s and '90s, there didn't seem to be a need for anyone to go asking around, since .... afterall, no one's ever been bothered, right in full view of anyone and everyone. We poke around the barracks, parade grounds, PT fields, etc....

So you see how that psychology works? If you ask enough questions, you can surely find someone to tell you "no". The question is, does anyone at those locales really even care? I know it's a tricky question, because certainly, you don't want to be the one to "find out otherwise", but on the other hand, you also don't want to walk around like a scared chicken thinking you need permission from Pres. Bush to hunt every single sandbox. So for me, I just stay clear of obvious historic monuments, go at "off-times", and I haven't had anything more than a few "scrams" over the years.

 

[SgtSki in MI]

While I was at Ft Huachuca I did detect around some old "Splinter Village" barracks that were being renovated and a few other spots with no trouble. There was another guy who was closer to Old Post Detecting and they threw the book at the guy. Something to do with Hohokam sites being at Ft Huachuca. Well there are Hohokam sites there, but the nearest known site was nowhere near where this dude was at, they were like 5 or 6 miles away way out on the West Range. He was ran in because there "might" be Hohokam artifacts where he was detecing at, bever mind that it was a part of main posty in a built-up area. It had nothing to do at all with what he was after and the fact that his excavations weren't going to be any more than 8 to 10 inches, FAR shallower than any where suspected Hohokam artifacts would be situated.

And out at Bliss I noticed that out in the training areas they have these Stakes (I forget what they are called) that they have placed around sites that they say have archaeological/historic significance. And they are around EVERY abandoned ranch out on McGregor Range. Some of these sites were CLEARLY occupied as late as the mid 30s by the abandoned vehicles and implements at some of the sites. If you see these stakes these sites are OFF LIMITS during training or at any other time. They were of course meant for native and prehistoric site according to the signs explaining the stakes, but some clown applied it to ANY signs of habitation.

Now in Michigan, the two training areas are Camp Grayling (State) in the northern half of the Lower Peninsula and FT Custer (Federal) which is near Battle Creek / Kalamazoo. My armory is located at FT Custer so I drill there every month. I have had absolutely NO trouble whatsoever detecting on either of these two posts. At Ft Custer there are several old farmsteads and such out in the training area and an old cemetery with graves that predate Michigan Statehood. All of these spots are along Territorial Road which is an old stage road from the 1830s. The guy in charge of the range control out there even gave me grid coordinates and told me where potential sites were that weren't on the maps. Now if I could only find something beyond old cast iron and junk!!!

I don't really care too much about detecting on Ft Campbell since there's plenty off-post possibilities. I don't know what kind of clubs are near Campbell as far as on the Kentucky side, but there is the Middle Tennessee Metal Detecting Club in Nashville that I may throw my hat in with since they're only an hour away from Campbell, and they look like a good established club that's been around for awhile.

-SgtSki

 

[cavers5]

Hi,

As far as treasure leads in those counties go: check out Thomas Terry's treasure atlas and Robert Marx's book on Buried Treasures of the United States.

If you don't have these books, pm me and I'll check them for you.

I know Pollack and his consort Henderson. I have absolutely no respect for these people because I got to see their "true" sides.

I did my Masters thesis on a rock art site here in KY where Gwynn, while working for Dave, had previously done a pedestrian survey and just flat-out missed the rock art and the rockshelters that had cultural material all over the place. Both of them have their PhDs.

I was always polite and was never rude to these people, but boy, did I have to bear the brunt of their nasty shenanigans.

When I mailed my forms into the state archaeology office, they were stolen and obviously destroyed. My paper/presentation on the site was NOT published. My thesis is not in the files. It has been put back in with the collection materials, so honestly I don't think they have a record on file of the rock art site.

Then, they thought it was okay to go around spreading lies, they called them "rumors" so that I could not get a job at UK or in that area, Lexington/Frankfort. They put it under the pretense of protecting their state archaeologist from me, like I was after the "man!" There were also others involved in this and believe me, if I can gather enough proof to prosecute these people, I don't care how long I have to stay in court or how money I have to dish out. I'm going to do it!

They tried to destroy me to hide the fact that the work they do is not quality. They do not want people to know that Gwynn completely missed those sites. It would hurt her PhD reputation. Wow! I wonder if she would get the grants that she does if everybody knew how badly I had been treated because they do not want me to report on all the sites they have missed over the years, primarily, in my opinion, because of their laziness. They publish and hobnob with the people that will give them more money or positions they want.

All of this is absolutely true and can be checked out by talking to just about anybody and by looking at their track record over the years. It's pure fact.

I'd like to say that if anybody wants to contribute to my knowledge concerning this case, just pm me. I'll be happy to take statements, depositions, anything at all that you've heard, seen, or just think you know! I'll have it checked out if at all possible.

Sincerely,
Cavers5