analogue vs digital which wins out and why

[metal mania]

analogue vs digital which wins out and why ??. And do we trust Vdi just a little to much your thought's please

 

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[Muddyhandz]

From what I've read over the years, analogue is more accurate.

But there's another thing that trumps both.....

My ears!



Cheers,
Dave.

 

[pennyfarmer]

I honestly wish that there were some high end analog metered machines. I like my explorer but there is something about watching a needle that I think gives a better picture. I love my explorer but honestly I hunt parks for very old deeeeeeep targets and my standard signal jumps from hell to breakfast. I watch for the good parts of a signal compared to the bad parts and make my decision to dig based loosely on that. Problem being that the meter will lock where it wants even if the tone says it is good.

I hope I explained that good enough. Digital is just a pixilated picture vs. analog which would give a smoother picture. Digital looks cooler so thats what we get.

 

[MinnesotaStateUniversity]

analogue vs digital which wins out and why

Application?

You need to elaborate. I like them both, but for different applications.

 

[Frankn]

Analog and digital are electronic processing methods Like the old TV transmissions were analog while the new TV transmissions are digital. It's just processing in a different electronic format. Now I assume you are talking about the manor of presenting info on a display. That is with a mechanical meter or an electronic presentation by a liquid crystal or other solid state method. I like that needle movement in a way, but over the years, I have bent quite a few. The thing is you can get much higher resolution with an electronic display. On my XLT, I get a battery readout like 11.9V. If I had to read a needle, I would not get a reading as accurate. Another advantage is the many other things displayed there.
Now as far as accuracy, the readout on the type of target is a guess based on test items in the lab like coins. All you are really seeing is the amount of signal return. The detector doesn't really know what is down there. I use an XLT and a PI so I live on both sides of the street. Frank...

 

[Jason in Enid]

Analog? There hasn't been an analog detector produced since the 1980s. I seriously doubt if there is more than a handful of members here who have ever used an analog detector.

 

[MinnesotaStateUniversity]

Analog? There hasn't been an analog detector produced since the 1980s. I seriously doubt if there is more than a handful of members here who have ever used an analog detector.

...some of our detectors are homemade

 

[Keppy]

When i used Analog what i liked about the ones i used was when they hit a target they locked in.......... On that number ... Not like digital that likes to jump around a lot...

 

[Frankn]

When i used Analog what i liked about the ones i used was when they hit a target they locked in.......... On that number ... Not like digital that likes to jump around a lot...

Hay keppy, you can adjust the refresh time on an XLT Frank...

 

[lonewolfe]

Analog? There hasn't been an analog detector produced since the 1980s. I seriously doubt if there is more than a handful of members here who have ever used an analog detector.

The 1266 Fisher is an analog which was made up until approx. 2001 and then discontinued... The Tesoro Tejon which is still made as of today is an analog machine -

there's a long list of others still on the scene too...

OP

If you don't have an analog platform detector with modulated audio in your arsenal of machines

you have no idea what you're missing

there's no comparison between digital read out and digitally compressed/filtered audio VS "the real thing"!
(it's the same as using a 1/2 stack of 1960/70s Marshalls with tubes and a Les Paul VS the digital junk Amps of the last 30 yrs and a chinese knock off Les Paul) which do you think sounds better!?

The age of "computers" has directed metal detector manufacturers to build them as a digital handheld computer for all the gen X'ers and beyond

kids of today (35 and under especially and even as old as 40) want to believe that the detector is going to tell/show them what they want to see/hear 100% absolute (mainly see) because "old school analog" is too boring, too old, it's too much work, I want/need instant gratification, blah blah blah and who wants to use that "old junk!?" HAHAHA is all I have to say to those guys and the JOKE'S on them!

 

[bevo]

amigo

 

[Jason in Enid]

The 1266 Fisher is an analog which was made up until approx. 2001 and then discontinued... The Tesoro Tejon which is still made as of today is an analog machine -

there's a long list of others still on the scene too...

Those are NOT analog detectors. An analog detector is one which does not use digital signal processors, in other words is not a "computerized" detector and like I said before those haven't been produced by any company for decades.

The lack of a meter or use of a dial meter is not what makes something analog or digital.

 

[DocBeav]

I honestly wish that there were some high end analog metered machines. I like my explorer but there is something about watching a needle that I think gives a better picture. I love my explorer but honestly I hunt parks for very old deeeeeeep targets and my standard signal jumps from hell to breakfast. I watch for the good parts of a signal compared to the bad parts and make my decision to dig based loosely on that. Problem being that the meter will lock where it wants even if the tone says it is good.

Is there an after-market or modded meter you could purchase for your explorer? I got one from Ron for my Sovereign GT. Works great and was MUCH less than the old minelab factory made ones!

 

[Muddyhandz]

Yep, lonewolfe is right. I did some web searches and it appears that machines like the ones I use are analog.
I always thought it was just the meter detectors (with the needle) but nope, detectors like old fishers and current tesoro's (to name a few) have analog audio or are referred to as analog detectors.
Now that I fully understand the question, I would say analog detectors (in the hands of experienced users) are way better!

 

[lonewolfe]

Those are NOT analog detectors. An analog detector is one which does not use digital signal processors, in other words is not a "computerized" detector and like I said before those haven't been produced by any company for decades.

The lack of a meter or use of a dial meter is not what makes something analog or digital.

Although the Tejon circuitry does make use of some IC's (which are digital), it relies heavily on analog potentiometers-- the control knobs-- and other features. Just as real tractors are red, real metal detectors are analog. That's because oscillation and coil tuning are inherently analog features.

Many speak and refer to analog or digital either incorrectly or in too broad and general terms. For example, a detector may use digital technology in it's circuitry however still transmit an analog signal. What would we classify this type of detector as? The sine wave is a smooth repetitive oscillation that retains its wave shape when added to another sine wave of the same frequency and arbitrary phase. It is the only periodic waveform that has this property. What does all this mean? Well, to put it simply it makes it acoustically unique and as such is often used to help detectorists find targets through the use of sound (hence modulated audio) and NOT "digital".

Going opposite of the sine wave we have the square wave that alternates between two states, either high or low, or in computer talk the binary on/off switches or 1's and 0's in Boolean value. Some have disputed that this "digital" wave is actually "analog" when switching between the two states. The square wave is used in electronics and signal processing. The clock signal is a special digital signal used to synchronize digital circuits. The logic family can be voltage or current to be the states of wire and they each have different thresholds.

Often in a metal detector both types of waves, as well as others, are used. So, now we ask, why would we care about a digital metal detector? Well, lets consider another industry we are all familiar with to better understand. Everyone in the United States has been affected by the change to digital television. To make things worse, at the same time the broadcast stations have also switched to HDTV (High Definition Television). A digital image isn't inherently better than an analog image. An HDTV picture doesn't have to be digital either; Japanese HDTV is broadcast over an analog signal. So, why is the United States choosing to go through the pain of switching from analog to digital?

There are several good reasons to go digital, including: how much data it can transmit, how consistent the data stays over distance, and what type of data the signal can carry. For the same amount of bandwidth, you can stuff a lot more information into a digital signal than an analog signal. So, it means better sound and more "data". In detectors, what are they doing with this data? Well, just look at the display of White's Spectra V3i as well as all the interactive modes it has and "data" it receives on every signal. Analog signals can't be compressed as well as digital. The drain on the battery is less as far as the transmission and signal processing however all the added interactive features of these detectors means your still be using the same or more juice. This is largely due to the difference in duty cycle and clock pulse.


Facts: An analog signal is "any continuous signal for which the time varying feature (variable) of the signal is a representation of some other time varying quantity, i.e., analogous to another time varying signal." It differs from a digital signal in terms of small fluctuations in the signal which are meaningful. Any information may be conveyed by an analog signal. An analog signal is one where at each point in time the value of the signal is significant,w here as a digital signal is one where at each point in time, the value of the signal must be above or below some discrete threshold.

It is true that an analog signal has a theoretically infinite resolution; however, this makes it more subject to noise and a finite slew rate. The advantages of analog signal reception and transmission become inferior to digital when there is a lot of noise. In detectors, what causes noise? Simple, everything within the signal scope which can be even particles in the air, the internal circuitry, the design of the the coil, conductors and rod, and then especially the ground and conductors within in. Compared to digital signals, analog signals are of higher density and their processing may be achieved more simply than with the digital equivalent. The primary disadvantage of analog signaling is that any system has noise - i.e., random unwanted variation. As the signal is copied and re-copied, or transmitted over long distances, these apparently random variations become dominant. Yes, detectors can and do limit this "noise" by shielding, good connections, and varying cable types. The effects of noise create signal loss and distortion. This is impossible to recover, since amplifying the signal to recover attenuated parts of the signal amplifies the noise (distortion/interference) as well. Even if the resolution of an analog signal is higher than a comparable digital signal, the difference can be overshadowed by the noise in the signal.

So what is your real question? Is the transmission signal analog or digital? Analog or digital audio response? Analog or digital internal circuitry? Is analog or digital signals being transmitted along the coaxial cable (and now often twisted pair) connecting the coil to the main unit?

Depending of the design specifications and the intended use of the metal detector they may be designed differently. Often detector manufacturers will achieve competitive advantage through use of varying technologies to reach their objectives. For example, they may choose different internal components due to cost or they may choose alternate more expensive chips or electronics to add value to their models. Often these value added "features" don't perform any better in the ground or environment but are able to do more with the information they are already processing. For example, data, voice, phone and other interactive features are being used over the same medium (wire) that has been in place for a long time. We have just become smarter about using it. There is no ALL DIGITAL or ALL ANALOG detector in my opinion but different parts of the detector will have different features. To really find out you would have to talk to the engineers or get ahold of the design schematics. In my opinion, when they say "digital" they are referring to the digital signal processing (DSP) and not the alteration of the frequency wave being transmitted. The goal of DSP is usually to measure, filter and/or compress continuous real

orld analog signals. The first step is usually to convert the signal from an analog to a digital form, by sampling it using an analog-to-digital converter (ADC), which turns the analog signal into a stream of numbers. This is what is used in the spectral estimation. Get it, the "Spectra" V3i. So the analog signal is still being used, as it gathers the most information (remember we said infinite), and then it is being compressed, processed and filtered through the digital signal processor DSP.

1266 analog
tejon analog
Troy x5 analog
vista gold/etc analog
1270 analog
cz5 analog
1236 analog

the list goes on and on

Any machine that doesn't use (DSP) to process the signal (and/or compress/convert) it and that doesn't have a digital readout/screen but has knobs to tune and set everything and uses potentiometers IS an "analog" platform machine (and when the sound isn't ran through a filter/converter/compressor) it is "modulated" audio which when incorporated into an analog type machine is the best of the best because you're relying on your ears and brain to tell you what's below the coil instead of a digitally compressed signal running thru a digital meter (VDI - TDI) and resulting in better ID and in finds overall

GTI 2500 not analog
V3i not analog
E-Trac not analog
AT Pro not analog
F75 not analog
T2 Not analog
ace 250 Not analog

etc. etc. etc.

There is nothing about a digital-style machine that inherently reaches deeper into the ground than an analog-style one. Digital target ID's (etc) are layers placed on top of the core functionality of the detector. As targets become deeper, these additional layers of information become less reliable. The detector will still find the deep targets, but what it tells you about them becomes less useful.

Deeply-buried targets begin to sound more and more like iron, the deeper they get. When they're deep enough, they might as well all be square nails or iron washers, as far as you can tell. I call this "iron shift"; the deeper the target, the more its conductivity seems displaced toward the iron end of the spectrum. Its actual conductivity is the same as it always was; what matters is what the detector tells you.

Those targets that yield obviously good "high tones" on (say) a Minelab are generally going to yield an obviously good, solid tone on the Tejon. That's great news, because many people can't afford a $1500 machine anyway!

Conversely, the "iffy" targets that yield only a partially good "high-tone" response on other machines will also tend to yield "iffy" or broken signals on say the Tejon. However, the Tejon user has the advantage of simply thumbing down the discrimination knob and now getting a smoother signal.

If it's deep and it comes in above "iron", dig it. That's what relic hunters do. Watching ID's bounce around on a digital meter is just going to make you/me not want to dig something.

It's worth making note, however, that the Tejon's discrimination does in fact reach down to the edge of detection depth, or close to it. Just keep in mind the "iron shift", though. The net result is that, if you get a signal that seems deep and is still giving you a smooth tone with the knob at "Tabs", then you ought to dig it. The Tejon can disc out deep pulltabs, but some of the better targets-- such as silver dimes-- might not give a really good "silver" signal until you dig a few inches of soil out of the way.

 

[Jason in Enid]

Although the Tejon circuitry does make use of some IC's (which are digital), it relies heavily on analog potentiometers-- the control knobs-- and other features. Just as real tractors are red, real metal detectors are analog. That's because oscillation and coil tuning are inherently analog features.

Everything below that was just empty filler. If it uses digital ICs, it's no longer an analog detector. The use of pots for controls means nothing, the signal is still going through digitalization, ergo it is no longer analog.

Hell, the sound that somes out of all speakers is an analog sound because that's all a speaker can produce. That doesn't mean anything because the computer analyzing and driving that speaker are digital.

 

[Frankn]

The 1266 Fisher is an analog which was made up until approx. 2001 and then discontinued... The Tesoro Tejon which is still made as of today is an analog machine -

there's a long list of others still on the scene too...

OP

If you don't have an analog platform detector with modulated audio in your arsenal of machines

you have no idea what you're missing

there's no comparison between digital read out and digitally compressed/filtered audio VS "the real thing"!
(it's the same as using a 1/2 stack of 1960/70s Marshalls with tubes and a Les Paul VS the digital junk Amps of the last 30 yrs and a chinese knock off Les Paul) which do you think sounds better!?

The age of "computers" has directed metal detector manufacturers to build them as a digital handheld computer for all the gen X'ers and beyond

kids of today (35 and under especially and even as old as 40) want to believe that the detector is going to tell/show them what they want to see/hear 100% absolute (mainly see) because "old school analog" is too boring, too old, it's too much work, I want/need instant gratification, blah blah blah and who wants to use that "old junk!?" HAHAHA is all I have to say to those guys and the JOKE'S on them!

Well, I am 75 and worked in electeronics for over 32 years. I have to agree with you on the Hi Fi/ Sterio sounds The old tube Mc Intosh is better than anything out there today. The compressed digital recordings of today lack the fine details of the music. Now when you talk Metal detectors, the story changes. The old analog equipment was heavier, consumed a much larger anount of energy and was not as sensitive. It didn't have the dept of newer detectors. The new digital detectors are far superior in the way of handling information . Just my experience. Frank...

 

[lonewolfe]

Everything below that was just empty filler. If it uses digital ICs, it's no longer an analog detector. The use of pots for controls means nothing, the signal is still going through digitalization, ergo it is no longer analog.

Hell, the sound that somes out of all speakers is an analog sound because that's all a speaker can produce. That doesn't mean anything because the computer analyzing and driving that speaker are digital.

You really need to do some research

hobbyist type metal detectors have ALways used IC's in some form since their beginning

so

when YOU say "there's been no analog detectors made since the 80s"

your statement is incorrect and holds no water

the IC use in a metal detector is not what determines IF or if it isn't an analog detector (again - do your research).

the only difference in todays IC's in detectors VS say 1970s/80s models is

back then there were several chips/boards with components on them to make the detector work as manufactured because they didn't have "micro chips" at that time as we know them to be now AND THEREFORE - they had to build them as large as tanks to get all the components in the box/housing with larger boards, diodes, resistors, etc.

nothing has changed in the way of digital function in a detector since back then except the fact that SOME machines are fully digital with a VDI/TDI digital readout AND have the soundwave ran thru a digital processor resulting in a difference in sound VS modulated audio

hence - give ME an analog with modulated audio any day of the week and KEEP the VDI/TDI and "processed" sound all you want when it comes rgt down to it

do I own any of the fully digital type machines? sure (even I like to "play" with toys) - I run an E-trac for one

but

do I own any analogs/modulated sound machines too? You bet I do ;-)

 

[MinnesotaStateUniversity]

Well, I am 75 and worked in electeronics for over 32 years. I have to agree with you on the Hi Fi/ Sterio sounds The old tube Mc Intosh is better than anything out there today. The compressed digital recordings of today lack the fine details of the music.
View attachment 789138

Tell that to my RTA

You hang around Diyma/DIYaudio?

SQ novice here. I just finished up one of Zaph's HiVi designs. Can't afford a Mac though. Dayton is where it's at Parts Express ftw!!!

Keep going gentlemen! The tech info is what I came here for

 

[Keppy]

Hay keppy, you can adjust the refresh time on an XLT Frank... View attachment 788725

Frank .. i did not know about that ... learn something new even at our age...