Anybody care to help?

[captbilly]

This wax seal was found on a wreck here in the DR. It is obviously a family crest or coat of arms. Mostly the items recovered from this wreck shows the wreck was probably French. But this coat of arms with lions, castle, shell looks more Spanish or Portuguese than that of France. I am trying to put together a thesis or book with all the info of three years of excavation on this wreck. And i find myself back to trying to identify whose family crest this is? Obvious someone of importance.
This wreck may have been a slave trader, so when searching it may incorporate even a few more countries into the mix. Like Portuguese Guinea or Brazil? The bell found on the ship was dated 1770. Coins were dated up till 1778. There were French Spanish and Portuguese coins. And one French colonial coin.
Any help would be much appreciated.
CB

 

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[Mackaydon]

Sometimes an accurate description of an artifact will lead to its ID. Your wax seal appears to have two lions, or griffins or dragons looking backwards. If they are lions, the description is Lions Rampant Regardant; if griffins or dragons the image would be described as Segreant (griffins or dragons) Regardant.
Hope that might help.
Don.......

 

[SADS 669]

This wax seal was found on a wreck here in the DR. It is obviously a family crest or coat of arms. Mostly the items recovered from this wreck shows the wreck was probably French. But this coat of arms with lions, castle, shell looks more Spanish or Portuguese than that of France. I am trying to put together a thesis or book with all the info of three years of excavation on this wreck. And i find myself back to trying to identify whose family crest this is? Obvious someone of importance. This wreck may have been a slave trader, so when searching it may incorporate even a few more countries into the mix. Like Portuguese Guinea or Brazil? The bell found on the ship was dated 1770. Coins were dated up till 1778. There were French Spanish and Portuguese coins. And one French colonial coin. Any help would be much appreciated. CB <img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1019496"/>

Send a pm to Hamilton at Monaco auctions on this site he knows a lot about wax seals

 

[captbilly]

Mackaydon,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. There is so many things on a ship wreck that can help identify the ship. The Ships Bell being the ultimate identification. There was a bell found on this wreck. So that’s simple right? But what if the bell wasn’t actually the ships bell? And was maybe a mission bell, cargo destined to some church. Indiana University did some research on the name of that bell. And sure enough there was a ship with that name. So case closed right? Problem is that name came back as a slave trader. I happened to live in Key West when Mel found the Henrietta Marie, a slave ship. That ship was loaded with iron leg shackles. This ship we excavated had none. I think that would be a bit strange. Indian University dug up these papers on the Marquis de Galliffet pg. 100 https://www.academia.edu/6673817/Colonial_Conundrums_Cannon_Piles_and_Clear_Water_2010_ That ship was happily sailing all the way up till the last slaves were off loaded in 1789. I believe the wreck we worked was underwater ten years prior to that. None of the coins date past 1778.
There was a sugar plantation in Haiti owned by the Marquis de Galliffet family. From the mid 18[SUP]th[/SUP] century through the early 1800’s. Maybe they had a mission and ordered a bell?
We found some awesome artifacts on this wreck. Looks more to be a merchant ship carrying some prominent passenger(s) what I am writing about is exactly what I am explaining here. I want to show what an amazing wreck it is at the same time discussing how easy it could have been misidentified.
Maybe it is the Marquis de Galliffet? If so it puts that wreck right up in the ranks of the Henrietta Marie. (Without leg shackles). Things like that wax seal could eventually come back with a family name and research might show what ship that person was traveling on, or perished on? That is why I think it is very important to identify the seal.

 

[Trez]

Captbilly,
When I took a quick glance at the photo, my eyes went to one particular area of the crest and what looks to me to be Cece de la Coruna (Spain) - right below the Castle.
You mentioned Slave trader possibly, that is interesting because the port of Coruna became one of the very ports which was heavily involved in slave trading around the time period you are finding dated material too. Significant families names lay ties to this port and its slave dealings. It exported many slaves to Cuba. Dominican Republic was in route to Cuba
I have posted a link that may or may not be of any help to you, but I see the Coruna symbol in your photo...maybe its just my eyes and my tablet.
page 230 onward may shed more light, good luck in your search.
Just my guess.

Spain, Europe, and the 'Spanish Miracle', 1700-1900 - David R. Ringrose - Google Books

Regards,
Scott

 

[Mackaydon]

The scallop shell on your crest reminds me that the apostle S. James the Great's emblem was the scallop shell; and he is the patron saint of Spain. The Spanish styled castle may add more weight to a Spanish connection.
Don....

 

[Trez]

The scallop shell on your crest reminds me that the apostle S. James the Great's emblem was the scallop shell; and he is the patron saint of Spain. The Spanish styled castle may add more weight to a Spanish connection.
Don....

Don,
I'll put my money on Cece de la Coruna, Spanish I say also.

Scott

 

[Mackaydon]

Scott,
Yes, the city of Coruna's Coat of Arms does contain images of scallops:

Don........

 

[captbilly]

I know the bell is pretty much the smoking gun that this ship is the Marquis de Galliffet. The whole time we were excavating this ship we had in mind it was a slaver, that’s what we were told. Problem was we were finding more proof this was a merchant ship rather than a Slave Trader. I am not the expert in Slave trading ships but believed when carrying hundreds of people against their will you would need to restrain them from some kind of revolt. Leg shackles, chains or something? But nothing, actually quite the contrary. It appears with the beautiful ornate silver buckles, gold cuff-links, gold and silver coins, lead balance beam weights, pocket watch, etc. that this was anything but a slaver.
Just thinking maybe the shackles stay with the slaves and on a return trip the ship wouldn’t need them? Not sure how that worked?
Maybe some where a document will show this is where the Galliffet wrecked and case closed. But for now I want to exhaust every other avenue. And as of right now the only real research being conducted about this ship wreck is right here on this thread. So I appreciate all of the input.
I have been working on a book about this wreck. Not like some scientific archeology friendly report, (leave that to the archeologists) but more of a book about the methods of excavation the people involved, pictures of artifacts, theories and my personal experiences.

 

[Salvor6]

Captbilly said: "I have been working on a book about this wreck. Not like some scientific archeology friendly report, (leave that to the archeologists) but more of a book about the methods of excavation the people involved, pictures of artifacts, theories and my personal experiences."

Captbilly to me that is worth more than a 600 page detailed archaeological report from some stuffed shirt. Show me one archaeological report from an archie on the best sellers list. Most of the time you can't even find their reports.

 

[captbilly]

Salvor I do understand the concept of the archaeological report, and to most us layman it is about as boring as bat crap.
For the last eight years I have been working side by side with archaeologists. Assisting in their mapping, measurements, photography and so on. And again I believe this is important as there really is only one time a wreck gets excavated. So absolutely it should be recorded. What I have learned through these years when dealing with Archaeologist you are dealing with book smart people. Not one sense of sea smarts. I had thirty years working as a Captain in the commercial fishing industry before taking on this job. I am not book smart but consider myself sea smart. That’s where it gets interesting. Archaeologists are someone that sat in class learning the very best methods of mapping a ship wreck. Then you have someone like me that has spent his whole life at sea learning what causes ship wrecks. (my teacher being Mother Nature herself). A big part of the story of a shipwreck is what direction it came in from or what were the possible weather conditions at the time? Wave action? Effects of the shoreline. Underwater surge in a particular area? Tropical revolving storms and their effect, so many things to consider that no way could have someone learned sitting in a class room. I am the kind of person who first takes it all in and then ciphers out what I think we can use and what we can’t. (Usually incorporating the basic of common sense for my final assessment). And because I didn't spend my whole life in Archaeology school that I listen to what these people have to say. Right? Try to learn some of what they learned. But your typical archaeologist KNOWS EVERYTHING. They will not bend; they do not care to hear your theories because what they learned in school is how it is. It is very frustrating working alongside these head strong people. I did like our last archaeologist, we became good friends. He didn’t speak very much English, but he had a passion for his work, was a great artist, and spent all of his day and nights making reports. But when he would tell me his theories about why the ship ended up in a certain location or position, I would just stare at him thinking how this guy could be so school smart yet this dumb. He probably had similar thoughts about me.
And the cost if excavating a ship wreck in a marine environment is enormous. Time is of the essence. An archaeologist work is tedious and time consuming. Trying to keep that happy medium among my crew?
That’s the kind of stories I am writing about in my book.

These photos are from the Galliffet site of a lead balance beam weight and a lead seal both with markings. more pieces of the puzzle?

 

[SADS 669]

Salvor I do understand the concept of the archaeological report, and to most us layman it is about as boring as bat crap. For the last eight years I have been working side by side with archaeologists. Assisting in their mapping, measurements, photography and so on. And again I believe this is important as there really is only one time a wreck gets excavated. So absolutely it should be recorded. What I have learned through these years when dealing with Archaeologist you are dealing with book smart people. Not one sense of sea smarts. I had thirty years working as a Captain in the commercial fishing industry before taking on this job. I am not book smart but consider myself sea smart. That’s where it gets interesting. Archaeologists are someone that sat in class learning the very best methods of mapping a ship wreck. Then you have someone like me that has spent his whole life at sea learning what causes ship wrecks. (my teacher being Mother Nature herself). A big part of the story of a shipwreck is what direction it came in from or what were the possible weather conditions at the time? Wave action? Effects of the shoreline. Underwater surge in a particular area? Tropical revolving storms and their effect, so many things to consider that no way could have someone learned sitting in a class room. I am the kind of person who first takes it all in and then ciphers out what I think we can use and what we can’t. (Usually incorporating the basic of common sense for my final assessment). And because I didn't spend my whole life in Archaeology school that I listen to what these people have to say. Right? Try to learn some of what they learned. But your typical archaeologist KNOWS EVERYTHING. They will not bend; they do not care to hear your theories because what they learned in school is how it is. It is very frustrating working alongside these head strong people. I did like our last archaeologist, we became good friends. He didn’t speak very much English, but he had a passion for his work, was a great artist, and spent all of his day and nights making reports. But when he would tell me his theories about why the ship ended up in a certain location or position, I would just stare at him thinking how this guy could be so school smart yet this dumb. He probably had similar thoughts about me. And the cost if excavating a ship wreck in a marine environment is enormous. Time is of the essence. An archaeologist work is tedious and time consuming. Trying to keep that happy medium among my crew? That’s the kind of stories I am writing about in my book. These photos are from the Galliffet site of a lead balance beam weight and a lead seal both with markings. more pieces of the puzzle? <img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1020325"/><img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1020326"/> <img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1020327"/><img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1020328"/><img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1020330"/><img src="http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1020331"/>

Capt B,

I agree entirely with you, my experience in a nutshell with our Archeological friends ( most but certainly not all) is that they can tell you the scientific names of all the ingredients in a jar but need you and me to get the top off it. ha ha.