Archaeology vs Metal Detecting

[Goodyguy]

I am a metal detector hobbyist and also a student of archaeology and belong to a local archaeology club. While I can appreciate the point of view from an archaeological standpoint of keeping artifacts in the ground undisturbed, I also see the metal detectorist side of the issue as well.

My feeling is that there is always going to be a conflict of interest between the two sides.
However since archaeology has achieved both professional and academic status compared to the hobby status of metal detecting, it is apparent that archaeology interests are always going to overrule metal detecting interests.

This conflict seems to have been addressed in a civilized manner beneficial to both parties in the UK. Therefore I suggest it would be in our best interest to figure out a way to establish the same or similar policy in this country, to bring the two sides together for mutual benefit. Otherwise I believe we MD'ers are going to see even more land in this country closed to our hobby.

Goodyguy~

 

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[txkickergirl]

Re: Archeology vs Metal Detecting

I can agree with this, but metal detecting guidelines first need to be uniformed across all of the states. I see no reason why many sites that are now closed depending on what state you live in can not be opened and permits issued. That would earn revenue for those states. Then I see no reason why archeology and metal detecting cannot form some kind of bridge to allow the two benefit. As always, even in England you will have the law breakers and people who will on both sides take advantage of it, but as a whole it would go along way to preserve our nations history.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Re: Archeology vs Metal Detecting

Or .......... you can just steer clear of those "purist" type archies to begin with, and just stay off their radar. I say "purist" type, because I believe those are the types that give us grief, not the rest of them. The "purist" type would even go so far as to say you shouldn't dig clad on the beach (even though it's not archaeologically significant), because "in 100 yrs, it will be archaeologically significant to future generations" doh! But I have met other archies that could care less, as long as you're not in their 5 x 5 pits

Yes, politicians tend to beckon to the wishes of archies (since as you say, they are the academia, and we are not). But once again, if we all become a bunch of squeeky wheels, trying to get ourselves sanctioned (like England or whatever), guess who's going to get their way? England sort of "evolved" that way since the dawn of detectors. For US to think we can just change things here now, ESPECIALLY in the current political chaos with lack of $$, budget prob's, etc..., will never fly. You would merely get rules written "to address your pressing issue", by law-makers who probably would never have given the matter a second thought (until you asked/petitioned/griped, etc...).

Right now, I can go to a city park and detect, and keep what I find, without any "declarations" (as in the England system), or can go to a farmer's field and find a gold coin, and not do any declarations either. Why would I want that to change? Remember, the basics of the English law is that resources below the ground (oil, minerals, etc...) belong to the queen, to begin with, EVEN on private land. Such is not the case here in the USA, so our laws allow private farmers to get rich if oil is discovered on their land. So there is going to be some differences in the under-lying premises, that would set us apart from them, to begin with.

 

[Goodyguy]

I'm not familiar with the policy in the UK, GG.
(please pardon my ig/no_rance)
What kind of agreement do they have?


Judy

Here it is:

The Treasure Act, 1996 is a piece of legislation designed to deal with finds of treasure primarily those made by metal detectorists in England and Wales. It legally obliges finders of objects which constitute a legally defined term of treasure to report their find to their local coroner within fourteen days. An inquiry led by the coroner then determines whether the find constitutes treasure or not. If is declared to be treasure then the owner must offer the item for sale to a museum at a price set by an independent board of antiquities experts. Only if no museum expresses an interest in the item or is unable to purchase it can the owner retain it.

'Treasure' is defined as being:

* All coins from the same hoard. A hoard is defined as two or more coins, as long as they are at least 300 years old when found. If they contain less than 10% gold or silver there must be at least 10 in the hoard for it to qualify.
* Two or more prehistoric base metal objects in association with one another
* Any individual (non-coin) find that is at least 300 years old and contains at least 10% gold or silver.
* Associated finds: any object of any material found in the same place as (or which had previously been together with) another object which is deemed treasure.
* Objects substantially made from gold or silver but are less than 300 years old, that have been deliberately hidden with the intention of recovery and whose owners or heirs are unknown.

Under English law a landowner has sole title to any archaeological artifacts found on his or her property. Legitimate metal detectorists come to an agreement the owners of the land they detect on to share any proceeds from treasure sales. Those who detect illegally, either on Scheduled sites or without the landowners' permission cannot benefit from the Treasure Act. Illegal detectorists have had their loot confiscated and can face fines and prison.

Then there is this:

The Portable Antiquities Scheme or PAS is a voluntary programme run by the United Kingdom government to record the increasing numbers of small finds of archaeological interest found by members of the public. The scheme was begun in 1997 and now covers most of England and Wales.

It is primarily focused on private metal detectorists who through their hobby regularly discover artifacts that would otherwise go unrecorded. Members of the public can also report objects they have found and finds of non-metallic objects are also covered by the scheme. Finds that legally constitute treasure are dealt with through the Treasure Act, 1996. This however concentrates on precious metals, prehistoric base-metal, and finds in association with them. Non-prehistoric base metal and non-metal finds would not be recognised as treasure and therefore be unrecorded. The PAS exists to fill this gap.

The scheme funds the posts of Finds Liaison Officers (FLOs) at county councils or local museums to whom finders can report their objects. The FLO is qualified to examine the find and provide the finder with more information on it. He or she also records the find, its function, date, material and location and places this information into a database which can be analysed. The information on the find spot can be used to organise more research on the area. Many previously unknown archaeological sites have been identified through the scheme and it has contributed greatly to the level of knowledge of the past. FLOs maintain close links with local metal detecting societies and have contributed to a thaw in relationships between the detectorists and archaeologists who often previously disdained one another.

The find remains the property of the finder or the landowner who are free to dispose of non-treasure finds. The scheme currently has funding until 2008.

The scheme has its detractors amongst both the archaeological and metal detecting communities. The possibility that a newly-discovered site might be protected through Scheduling and therefore be out of bounds to future detecting visits is a concern of some hobbyists.

Hope this helps,

Goodyguy~

 

[One mans trash...]

Re: Archeology vs Metal Detecting

Difficult issues. Archeology knows so many certain and prospective sites that could be addressed if the funding was there, and they dislike the idea of pot hunters disrupting them first. But they know there will never be enough money. The archeological picture is built up of many small pieces of knowledge, and there's no way to know ahead of time which sites can contribute something new. And, of course, there are many different periods of interest and so there are many different kinds of sites of interest to different specialists. Controlling sites on public lands doesn't really deal with the issue. I would guess that the vast majority of interesting archeological sites that would be the sort of thing that would attract MDers are on private lands.

In these kinds of situations, the best outcomes result from recognizing the realities. Some of those realities will always remain. There will always be people who care nothing more than what they can profit or what they can get for themselves. But a lot of MDers are genuinely interested in the histories of what they find and do considerable work to track down sites. For those, archeology can benefit from educational efforts in their direction, aimed at two things. One is mining the information to be gained from some finds. That might be the locations of potentially valuable sites or information from relics that reveal something new about a site or about activity there. If I were trying to locate, for example, the site of a mission (often in the Southwest merely a hovel that was occupied for a few years at most), or a military encampment, I can think of no more efficient way to survey than experienced MDers.

Local archeological and historical clubs often have a huge store of knowledge about what might be of interest in the area, especially the sought after sites, the ones they really would like to locate. MDers may have already found clues. A lot of these sites will not merit or will never find the resources to excavate. That's another reality. Is it better to share information and learn something or to dream that one day a site will be discovered and handled as a fully disciplined archeological project but never know when it will be stumbled upon and treated in a wholly uncontrolled way? Or to have them found and recognized as something but detected over without finding anything of interest to the MDer who doesn't know it's something of interest to the historians. Neither side can even know exactly what to ask the other. The benefits come from just talking to each other about all sorts of things so that the important bits can be recognized and pulled together.

You know, here in Texas, a lot of land owners know a great deal about historical events and sites on their land. A lot of them just take it for granted and don't mention it unless someone asks. I suspect there are a lot more MDers asking than archeologists.

 

[Goodyguy]

Good point Tom in Ca,

Why would we want to jeopardize what we already have?....... Because what we have is already in jeopardy.

I hate to say this but it is starting to look bad for our hobby. Parks and public places are becoming off limits to metal detecting at an alarming rate. And not only because some good citizen decided that asking for permission would be a good idea.

I believe that there is a concerted effort by certain archies ( who think we are out to steal the artifacts of the past, present and future) to lobby against all use of metal detectors by the general public period.

Sure we could just go on as if nothing was wrong and just hope for the best. But uninformed citizens are going to continue to ask permission to hunt public land even if You and I know better than to.

With this in mind I believe we need to have a plan B in place at some point, before our hobby is outlawed altogether.

Goodyguy~

 

[Drache]

Re: Archeology vs Metal Detecting

This was certainly debated in my thread about the local ghost town. Personally I see no problem with MD'ing and I certainly see no problem with archies. Now I love finding treasure as much as the next guy but I've also been raised (mostly by my uncle) to respect history.

There are many TV shows here in Canada where a group of archies will travel the WWI and WWII sites in Europe. They will find something like a watch or a buckle or something and actually track the owner of the item! It's amazing what they can do!

An example would be a wristwatch from WWI. There was only a single last name on the band of the watch. Now since they know where the item came from they can look at military records and know that three people with that last name were at that location. Now out of those three only one was an officer. They look at his papers and see that he had a wristwatch that was not returned to his family with his body. Then they contact the descendants and tell them the whole story. (there was another story of the soldier being MIA and they found and identified a skeleton by a simple pocket watch. the family finally got closure)

Now if either of those watches were found by someone else, kept in a personal collection until that person passed away, and their heirs (who knew nothing about where they were found) donated those items to a museum, there would be no way to find out who the items belonged to.

I believe history should be preserved but not by keeping those items in the ground until they rust away. Some might say it's better a treasure hunter found them and got them out of the ground first (which might be true) but no one will ever know that the area they search might have an archie dig done later on.

It's a very two sided issue with no clear side to be on. But personally I'd rather see an archie find the item and have it go to a museum than a treasure hunter taking the item only because he found it and keeping it on a shelf in his/her home or in a box. I know this view might get me allot of flak from members here (since this is a treasure hunting forum) but these are my personal views.

Now that being said I'm not trying to bash on TH'ers because I've done it myself a few times although everything I found I gave to my uncle. I love the thrill of the "hunt" and finding something.

 

[Philvis]

Re: Archeology vs Metal Detecting

I used to be a professional archaeologist but left the field about 5 years ago due to the lack of money and stability job wise. I trained here stateside as well as overseas in London and have heard the full gambit. I have always been pretty openminded, but there are many archaeologists who do feel only they should be allowed to get what's in the ground. I obviously don't think people should be detecting on national battlefield parks and places of the like just like most people on here, but I do feel that there is absolutely nothing wrong with casual detecting as I try to do it myself.

I think one of the biggest difficulties stateside is the fact that our history is not as long as europe and other places, so the archaeologists here want domain over whatever they can get. Prehistoric Native Americans only had cold hammered copper items, and since they are so rare, you can be assured there is a 99% chance you will never come across anything prehistoric here with a detector...so it will typically only be Spanish occupation up. I do not think there is anything wrong pulling an 18th century coin from the ground or the odd historic piece. Any place humans have lived is a literal trash pit, and that is basically what archaeologist excavate...trash. The only time I ever really cringe is the rare occasion that someone comes across an area I do feel has archaeological merit to be excavated and data retrieved that may have some historical context. Those are pretty obvious areas. When you dig down and are coming across intact planked walkways from the Civil War, those are times I feel an excavation are warranted for example. I remember seeing a video of that happening on youtube and they kept saying, "we are saving history." Like I said before, I am very open minded, but I didn't buy that argument that time. Other than the rare instances like that and of course burials, whether they are historic or prehistoric Native Americans, I say go for it.


I fully buy the argument that archaeologists just gather data and store away artifacts never to see the light of day again. I've seen that happen for years, from excavations I have conducted as well as archives in various historic resource departments. You would be amazed at the millions of artifacts in plastic or paper bags tucked away on a shelf in a bankers box. I cannot tell you how many arguments me and my old professor used to get in when it came to "treasure hunting" and archaeology. Archaeologists though are just like anyone else. You may run across 10 that will spit on you, but also run across another ten that are much more understanding. I will say though, state archaeologists tend to be the worst of the bunch in general. They tend to be like any other state employee, haha. No offense to any state workers out there! haha. There are so many different aspects to this never ending push and pull situation between archaeologists and detectorists, that I could go on forever. I just wanted everyone to know that there are some regular archaeologists out there though. I think the biggest problem that metal detectorists will have is fighting off the stigma that the detectorists in the 60's and 70's created when they had free reign to dig wherever they wanted and plenty of battlefields and burials were dug up. The code of ethics in the past couple decades have changed everything, but that stigma from years ago still sticks unfortunately. I say just be considerate when you dig and you can't go wrong.

Oh, and deep down, every archaeologist wants to be a treasure hunter. Don't let them tell you otherwise!

 

[Goodyguy]

Drache,

What would treasure hunting be without treasure? If it was lost so long ago that it's buried under the turf then I believe who ever finds it is the new owner. Whether it be archie or not. Of course there would be exceptions to this but for the most part it still was only a possession, a lost item. Everybody loses things, they have since the dawn of man.

Sure I would like to have some of the items back that I have lost over the years but life goes on I survived with out them. When it is all said and done archies and museums have no more right to these lost items than anyone else. But they have power and that makes all the difference.

Goodyguy~

 

[Drache]

Re: Archeology vs Metal Detecting

Drache,

What would treasure hunting be without treasure? If it was lost so long ago that it's buried under the turf then I believe who ever finds it is the new owner. Of course there would be exceptions but for the most part it still was only a possession, a lost item. Everybody loses things, they have since the dawn of man.

Sure I would like to have some of the items back that I have lost over the years but life goes on I survived with out them
and so has everyone else. When it is all said and done archies and museums have no more right to these lost items than anyone else.

Goodyguy~

Don't get my wrong finding treasure is a blast, but when they are artifacts that are in a ghost town or on a battlefield and can be used to identify a person or place they are more than simple "lost possessions". Those types of things ARE history in itself.

What would museums be like if every person who found something kept it for themselves.

Someone certainly can't walk into a pyramid in Egypt, take what they find, and try to leave the country. Simply telling a customs officer that you found it and it now belongs to you won't hold.

Now THAT being said people can try to split hairs as much as possible. Finding something like a belt buckle or bullets off a site can be one thing, but finding a sword etched with the owners name is say something else and deserves to be in a museum.

I'm not against MD'ers at all (I can't wait to buy one myself) but I believe CERTAIN sites need to excavated professionally. I believe though that MD'ers and archies can work together in situations like this.

 

[Goodyguy]

Good point Drache,

I did say there are exceptions. Common sense should prevail.

As far as the pyramids go most have been looted in the past not only by treasure hunters but by archaeologists as well.
Which to me made them nothing more than professional treasure hunters who got rich in the name of science.
Not saying it was right. I'm just sayin'

There are plenty of artifacts in private collections and in museums today that the public will never see, yet some how we still manage to get by.

however I am in complete agreement that there has to be some middle ground between us and them that will allow both endeavors to survive in co-existence. But since they have the most power we will surely have to be the ones to compromise.

Goodyguy~

 

[Philvis]

Re: Archeology vs Metal Detecting

Goodguy,
I can tell you this...the only rich archaeologists are those who came from money. A fraction of a percent of archaeologists have money. You don't make money writing text books and the pay for a professor isn't much. Usually anthropology departments are some of the least paid. You can trust me on that one. You would be surprised at how much museums, department of historic resources, universities, etc. have in terms of artifacts. Only a small percentage ever hit the display cabinets. They don't have the space or the man power to do the rotations. You see the best of the best typically. Museums used to buy them decades ago, but majority is now acquired through excavations sponsored by the particular entity as well as donations. Bought artifacts are typically from private collections. Archaeologists work for someone, so while they may pocket some nice finds, they rarely sell them unless on the black market.

 

[Goodyguy]

Goodguy,
I can tell you this...the only rich archaeologists are those who came from money. A fraction of a percent of archaeologists have money. You don't make money writing text books and the pay for a professor isn't much. Usually anthropology departments are some of the least paid. You can trust me on that one. You would be surprised at how much museums, department of historic resources, universities, etc. have in terms of artifacts. Only a small percentage ever hit the display cabinets. They don't have the space or the man power to do the rotations. You see the best of the best typically. Museums used to buy them decades ago, but majority is now acquired through excavations sponsored by the particular entity as well as donations. Bought artifacts are typically from private collections. Archaeologists work for someone, so while they may pocket some nice finds, they rarely sell them unless on the black market.

Yes, Philvis you are absolutely right!

Most Archies I know have very little money and only live from one grant or donation to the next.
I didn't mean to give the impression that all Archaeologists are corrupt.

GG~

 

[Philvis]

Re: Archeology vs Metal Detecting

I understand what you meant Goodyguy.

The biggest thing an archaeologist can be accused of is typically just having a big ego. The reason being is they don't have much else to show for. Within the field there is a lot of name dropping and I know more than you. I saw it all the time. Most of archaeology is theory, so it is a big ego boost "proving" your theory. Unfortunately, there are enough of the egotists in the field to enable the generalization of the entire bunch. It was one of the biggest aspects of the field I didn't like, minus the pay of course.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Good-guy, your points to me are all "duly noted"

After citing the merits of the English system (that you're saying we could push the USA to adopt), and after citing the current worsening restrictions that some places here are encountering, you conclude:

" With this in mind I believe we need to have a plan B in place at some point"

My answer to this is:

a) I fully agree with you, that if a place here becomes off-limits (that truly shouldn't be, if they are not hallowed historic sacred type sites), then it's a shame we can't do something about it. Agreed. The problem I have is WHAT that "plan B" should be. That is the issue, is "will good-guy's plan B work?", not: "should we do something about it?"

b) As philvis says: "I think one of the biggest difficulties stateside is the fact that our history is not as long as europe and other places, so the archaeologists here want domain over whatever they can get..." That is what I'm trying to say too, is that the same set of circumstances politically, historically, and culturally, do not exist here, as they have evolved here. So your "plan B", would be impossible to push through, given the current fiscal crisis (higher priorities right now in govt.). You're talking govt. bureaucrats to over-see such things, depts, etc.... Laws, and explanations, as you so nicely cite in the examples of what England has written. Certainly you know that someone would have to write those things, they have to be voted on, lawyers to word them, debate to ensue over whether to enact or not, etc.... I for one would be scared to have politicians, who, as you yourself say, are at the beckoning of the archies, be voting on whether I can detect or not, simply because WE put it in front of them for a vote.

c) You have to remember, that even in England, there are scores of parks that are off-limits to detecting. I even read on English hunter say that all city parks (city squares, etc...) across England are off-limits. Of course, to them, it's no problem, as the farmer's fields are BRIMMING with history. But the reason I say this about parks is, because you think the system there is so nice, but you fail to realize that they too have restrictions for, apparently, certain public lands too. So certainly bringing their system HERE is not going to magically open up some city or state that has restrictions presently. Do you see?

d) There is a perception here, on forums, that our hunting sites in all public places are closing left and right. But I firmly believe that part of this perception is due to the wonderful jet-age of information travel, on the internet. Someone posts that their city, or their state, now has restrictions. So the REST of the hunters across the USA, thanx to the lightening fast age of the internet, read that and think "oh no, the sky is falling, I better run to city hall or start asking at each kiosk I come to" And before you know it, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even you agree with me on this, that sometimes we md'rs bring this on ourselves, asking where no one ever cared before (or even knew about such minutia if it did exist in codes), and getting a "no", where no one cared before.

e) So it seems to me that the plan b would not be to get the English system here, because it would never fly to begin with, and it wouldn't open up more public land even if was implimented, and it would mean we'd have to go "declaring" things we found on private property with permission (if I understand their system correctly).

f) What the plan B should be, I don't know either. I mean, it's easy for me/us to tell people "don't ask stupid questions, and odds are, no one cares less", but that doesn't do a lot of good for persons in certain states that truly do have rules, that really are enforced. I guess I would tell those folks to work the city level parks, since they don't fall under state land rules. Or, like england, there's TONS of private land that has no other "rulemaker" than the owner himself. I mean, taking my area for example, I suppose there's some federal parks near me, that if I were to really look into it, might find that I can't detect there. So I just avoid those spots, and have no end of other sites. But to go fight it, I fear will just put us in the spot-light, for a never-ending stream of publicity that the archies will win, not us. So why bring myself/ourself to the spot-light?

As a side-note, I recently sold some historical buttons to a collector in Washington. As we conversed, he told me that in his state of Washington, it was forbidden, EVEN ON PRIVATE LAND, to dig for items over 50 yrs. old. Yup, coins, bottles, etc.... How did he come up with this? He read an article in the paper about a bottle digger who had gotten grief by showing off bottles he'd dug from privies. The bottle digger had been given public warning that he was breaking laws (that I guess no one ever knew, or paid attention to before, despite already being on the books). I told this Washington button buyer that I could assure him, that people are continuting to detect and dig bottles up there. That what he'd read had no impact on reality. I personally know, for example, the past president of a Washington club. They have no trouble hunting old-town demolition sites, sidewalk strips, parks (as long as you're not leaving messes, or sticking out, etc...), yards of old homes, etc... Sure, if my friend were to take a 1936 merc. to certain archies and asked "under Washington law, was I allowed to dig this?" Sure, he'd get a "no". So you tell me, in that case, do you fight Washington's laws, or do you leave good enough alone?

 

[Monty]

I could live with a deal to share with the Archies and the government , but not to require permits or licensing. It's just like the gun control lobby's attempts to license and register all guns. Licensing and permitting metal detecting is the first step to outlawing it altogether, and I truly believe that. Monty

 

[Drache]

I could live with a deal to share with the Archies and the government , but not to require permits or licensing. It's just like the gun control lobby's attempts to license and register all guns. Licensing and permitting metal detecting is the first step to outlawing it altogether, and I truly believe that. Monty

Hey, in Canada we already deal with a gun registry and licensing....

 

[Goodyguy]

Tom of Ca,

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I must say that you have brought up very important issues regarding the laws established in the UK. Although I did suggest the same or similar to the laws in the UK. I too am at a loss to come up with a plan "B" that would satisfy all parties concerned. That is really the reason for starting this thread.

I however, have to take issue with your belief that;
"part of this perception is due to the wonderful jet-age of information travel, on the internet." being the reason for it just seeming like there are more parks being closed to metal detecting.

The internet has been around for quite some time as has T-Net and not until recently have the issues of "closed to metal detecting" been so widespread. Please correct me if I am wrong.

We are in this together and together we must find a solution to address this ever growing problem before it is too late.

Goodyguy~

 

[Tom_in_CA]

good-guy, I guess it would take an infinate study of when this rules things started, to determine if it began because of people merely reading about bootings, thinking they needed to ask and fight ("afterall, you can't be too safe, eh?" and presto, getting no's where no one really cared or gave the matter thought before. There is no data or proof time-line one could come up with, to determine which came first.

I can just say this, as a first-hand witness, having been into this since the mid 1970s: At that time, it never even occured to us there might be a "rule" at a park or beach or whatever. I mean, DOH, where else are you supposed to detect? Isn't it public? It's not that anyone back then set out to be sneaky or go at off-hours (to avoid busy-bodies), it just never occured to them, to begin with, that you would even need to ask. I mean, no more so than asking if you could use the swing set, fly a frisbee, etc..... Fast forward to the age of the FMDAC mailers (which pre-dated the internet, in the mid to late 1980s). I can still remember these articles being read aloud in our brick-&-mortar club meetings, about isolated cases of bootings at some far-away place elsewhere in the USA! Oh wow! We were up in arms. "Hurry, let's send more club money to donate to this cause!" etc... But I began to see an interesting trend: members I hunted with (generally the older skittish type) reacted to these stories, with notions that when they traveled (or even in their own home town now), that they should ask permission, seek to see if there are permits, etc...

See what changed? Just the information age. In that case, a specialty newsletter that dealt with nothing else EXCEPT that subject. I just propose to you, that the internet is accomplishing the same thing now. What to do about it? I dunno

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

I'm hunting in the top 12" of soil, mostly for coins. The earlirst "coin carrier" anywhere near here was a Mr. Johnson who opened a trading post 20 miles away in 1739. Probably the oldest I can hope to find is post Rev. War when the land was granted to former soldiers.

If that interferes with the archeologists . . . then it's not my fault they were in libraries and classrooms while I was out digging around in the soil. They have every right to ask permission and hunt or dig - just as I have. If I come across the lost copper tablets or a lost civilization I'll let them know and yield the spot to the advancement of world information.