Atlantis

[BillA]

Tom

not much incentive, but if you post it I would be pleased to read such
my interest is not so much Atlantis per se, as ancient events confirmed by numerous cultures

 

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[Tom_Restorer]

Here is the book as PDF from Jürgen Spanuth who located Atlantis in the northern sea at first on a scientific basis.

He made some small errors in dating but overall he did a great research from old sources.

It is in german but you can copy page for page and translate it at google in English. Over 600 pages that are worth to read because a lot of very good information!

https://ia801306.us.archive.org/24/items/juergen-spanuth-atlantis/juergen-spanuth-atlantis.pdf

 

[Oroblanco]

Kanacki wrote

If you have peer reviewed document in other languages then please feel free to post. I am sure many here would be interested.

Kanacki

If we limit our discussion to peer reviewed documents, it won't be much discussing going on.

In my opinion, no one has done more to keep Atlantis lost than Plato himself. As Plutarch accused him, <in the Life of Solon if memory serves? Correction welcomed> embellishing on the tale and adding elements which are very anachronistic created a mythical place that could not have existed. The basic tale of Atlantis is much more bare bones and yet is still astonishing in its own right.

The ancient sources outside of Plato tell us about an ancient Ice Age civilization (if that term is even accurate) that existed on islands in the Atlantic. Plutarch confirms that it existed but states that Plato overly embellished the story, Strabo off-handedly confirms the story in his discourse on another ancient geographer Poseidonius;

And on this point he does well to cite the statement of Plato that it is possible that the story about the island of Atlantis is not a fiction.121 Concerning Atlantis Plato relates that Solon, after having made inquiry of the Egyptian priests, reported that Atlantis did once exist, but disappeared — an island no smaller in size than a continent;122 and Poseidonius thinks p393 that it is better to put the matter in that way than to say of Atlantis: "Its inventor caused it to disappear, just as did the Poet the wall of the Achaeans."123 And Poseidonius also conjectures that migration of the Cimbrians and their kinsfolk from their native country occurred as the result of an inundation of the sea that came on all of a sudden.

from http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/2C*.html

The tale of Atlantis is also more easily understood when we keep in mind that Atlas the founding king of the island 'empire' was a Titan, and there are multiple ancient sources on the Titans and their legendary war with the Greek Gods, the Olympians. Diodorus Siculus refers to Atlantians still surviving in his day but apparently somewhere in the Americas.

One can almost point to any place on the globe and create a theory to make it into Atlantis. However Plato was describing a place he knew existed and still exists today, you can literally walk around in Atlantis. But look for an Ice Age culture not one of chariots and gold plated buildings. The earliest 'civilizations' were livestock tending peoples, as can be seen at Gobekli Tepe and other sites of the same period. These people were still hunter-gatherers but part time, as they were keeping some livestock as the beginnings of agriculture.

Please do continue sorry for getting off the track there.

 

[KANACKI]

Strange enough the Atlantis franchise of claims have branched out?

Here is some one claiming Atlantis is in Canada ( I WONDER IF THE OAK ISLAND GUYS HAVE NOT HEARD OF IT YET?) Gotta be another season for the brothers with that hypothesis.

Atlantis in Canada

Even so not to be out done Bolivia is having a crack at the claim.

Atlantis in Bolivia

What I find interesting is "Diodorus Siculus refers to Atlantians still surviving in his day but apparently somewhere in the Americas"

Diodorus Siculus

Diodorus Siculus or Diodorus of Sicily was an ancient Greek historian. He is known for writing the monumental universal history Bibliotheca historica, much of which survives, between 60 and 30 BCE.

" The Americas ?" then if that was true knowledge of America was nearly 1500 years before Columbus?

Bibliotheca historica (Ancient Greek: Βιβλιοθήκη ἱστορική, "Historical Library") is a work of universal history by Diodorus Siculus. It consisted of forty books, which were divided into three sections. The first six books are geographical in theme, and describe the history and culture of Egypt (book I), of Mesopotamia, India, Scythia, and Arabia (II), of North Africa (III), and of Greece and Europe (IV–VI). In the next section (books VII–XVII), he recounts the history of the world starting with the Trojan War, down to the death of Alexander the Great. The last section (books XVII to the end) concern the historical events from the successors of Alexander down to either 60 BC or the beginning of Caesar's Gallic War in 59 BC. (The end has been lost, so it is unclear whether Diodorus reached the beginning of the Gallic War, as he promised at the beginning of his work, or, as evidence suggests, old and tired from his labors he stopped short at 60 BC.) He selected the name "Bibliotheca" in acknowledgement that he was assembling a composite work from many sources. Of the authors he drew from, some who have been identified include: Hecataeus of Abdera, Ctesias of Cnidus, Ephorus, Theopompus, Hieronymus of Cardia, Duris of Samos, Diyllus, Philistus, Timaeus, Polybius and Posidonius.

Diodorus' immense work has not survived intact; only the first five books and books 11 through 20 remain. The rest exists only in fragments preserved in Photius and the excerpts of Constantine Porphyrogenitus.

While I am sure he took much information from the writings of Timaeus? Yet I can see no reference to Americas in Timaeus?

The first known reference to "Americas" was on 1507 map.

The Waldseemüller map or Universalis Cosmographia ("Universal Cosmography") is a printed wall map of the world by German cartographer Martin Waldseemüller, originally published in April 1507. It is known as the first map to use the name "America". The name America is placed on what is now called South America on the main map. As explained in Cosmographiae Introductio, the name was bestowed in honor of the Italian Amerigo Vespucci.

The map is drafted on a modification of Ptolemy's second projection, expanded to accommodate the Americas and the high latitudes. A single copy of the map survives, presently housed at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. But as far I can see there is no mention of Americas?

Waldseemüller also created globe gores, printed maps designed to be cut out and pasted onto spheres to form globes of the Earth. The wall map, and his globe gores of the same date, depict the American continents in two pieces. These depictions differ from the small inset map in the top border of the wall map, which shows the two American continents joined by an isthmus.

If there is a real historic document mentioning the America whose publication was long before predating 1507 that would be an amazing discovery in itself? However I have my doubts as modern translations can have things added in translation. Some times intentionally and some times un intentionally.

The world map from the Seven Days of Geography (Septe Giornate della Geographia), an Italian terza rima paraphrase of Ptolemy's Geography. After Ptolemy's second projection. Shows no sign of the Term "Americas"

The Ptolemy world map is a map of the world known to Hellenistic society in the 2nd century. It is based on the description contained in Ptolemy's book Geography, written c. 150. Based on an inscription in several of the earliest surviving manuscripts, it is traditionally credited to Agathodaemon of Alexandria.

Kanacki

 

[sdcfia]

Strange enough the Atlantis franchise of claims have branched out?

Here is some one claiming Atlantis is in Canada ( I WONDER IF THE OAK ISLAND GUYS HAVE NOT HEARD OF IT YET?) Gotta be another season for the brothers with that hypothesis.

Atlantis in Canada

Even so not to be out done Bolivia is having a crack at the claim.

Atlantis in Bolivia

What I find interesting is "Diodorus Siculus refers to Atlantians still surviving in his day but apparently somewhere in the Americas"

Diodorus Siculus

Diodorus Siculus or Diodorus of Sicily was an ancient Greek historian. He is known for writing the monumental universal history Bibliotheca historica, much of which survives, between 60 and 30 BCE.

" The Americas ?" then if that was true knowledge of America was nearly 1500 years before Columbus?

Bibliotheca historica (Ancient Greek: Βιβλιοθήκη ἱστορική, "Historical Library") is a work of universal history by Diodorus Siculus. It consisted of forty books, which were divided into three sections. The first six books are geographical in theme, and describe the history and culture of Egypt (book I), of Mesopotamia, India, Scythia, and Arabia (II), of North Africa (III), and of Greece and Europe (IV–VI). In the next section (books VII–XVII), he recounts the history of the world starting with the Trojan War, down to the death of Alexander the Great. The last section (books XVII to the end) concern the historical events from the successors of Alexander down to either 60 BC or the beginning of Caesar's Gallic War in 59 BC. (The end has been lost, so it is unclear whether Diodorus reached the beginning of the Gallic War, as he promised at the beginning of his work, or, as evidence suggests, old and tired from his labors he stopped short at 60 BC.) He selected the name "Bibliotheca" in acknowledgement that he was assembling a composite work from many sources. Of the authors he drew from, some who have been identified include: Hecataeus of Abdera, Ctesias of Cnidus, Ephorus, Theopompus, Hieronymus of Cardia, Duris of Samos, Diyllus, Philistus, Timaeus, Polybius and Posidonius.

Diodorus' immense work has not survived intact; only the first five books and books 11 through 20 remain. The rest exists only in fragments preserved in Photius and the excerpts of Constantine Porphyrogenitus.

While I am sure he took much information from the writings of Timaeus? Yet I can see no reference to Americas in Timaeus?

The first known reference to "Americas" was on 1507 map.

The Waldseemüller map or Universalis Cosmographia ("Universal Cosmography") is a printed wall map of the world by German cartographer Martin Waldseemüller, originally published in April 1507. It is known as the first map to use the name "America". The name America is placed on what is now called South America on the main map. As explained in Cosmographiae Introductio, the name was bestowed in honor of the Italian Amerigo Vespucci.

The map is drafted on a modification of Ptolemy's second projection, expanded to accommodate the Americas and the high latitudes. A single copy of the map survives, presently housed at the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. But as far I can see there is no mention of Americas?

Waldseemüller also created globe gores, printed maps designed to be cut out and pasted onto spheres to form globes of the Earth. The wall map, and his globe gores of the same date, depict the American continents in two pieces. These depictions differ from the small inset map in the top border of the wall map, which shows the two American continents joined by an isthmus.

If there is a real historic document mentioning the America whose publication was long before predating 1507 that would be an amazing discovery in itself? However I have my doubts as modern translations can have things added in translation. Some times intentionally and some times un intentionally.

The world map from the Seven Days of Geography (Septe Giornate della Geographia), an Italian terza rima paraphrase of Ptolemy's Geography. After Ptolemy's second projection. Shows no sign of the Term "Americas"

The Ptolemy world map is a map of the world known to Hellenistic society in the 2nd century. It is based on the description contained in Ptolemy's book Geography, written c. 150. Based on an inscription in several of the earliest surviving manuscripts, it is traditionally credited to Agathodaemon of Alexandria.

Kanacki

I'll maintain my current working model that "Atlantis" was a worldwide advanced civilization annihilated by the last sun micronova/earth pole shift ~12,000 years ago, leaving only scattered enigmatic architectural ruins, remnant groups of human survivors and root legends. Diodorus's reference to the Americas likely has some connection to the numerous ruins found in the Andes conveniently attributed to the Incas, which of course is silly when you compare the Incas' works to the truly ancient ruins they built on top of. Plato's iconic circular city? The best bet I've seen to match his description is the Richat Structure in Mauritania, a site that has not been well studied, probably due to its difficult location. Since we humans are constantly revising history to prop up our current political narratives - even in our own lifetimes - it's no wonder we're generally ignorant about our longterm history on earth.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I do not think there will ever be exact answers and perhaps that is why so many here find such topics illusive and mystifying.

Kanacki

Yeah; like MU/LEMURIA in the Pacific...

 

[BillA]

sd
in a prior life I was a materials engineer and I can assure you that there are materials that would last beyond a 12,000 yr cycle

long ago I saw a pic of a partially exposed gold chain necklace half encased in coal (a Nev mining expo in the '50s ?)

 

[sdcfia]

sd
in a prior life I was a materials engineer and I can assure you that there are materials that would last beyond a 12,000 yr cycle

long ago I saw a pic of a partially exposed gold chain necklace half encased in coal (a Nev mining expo in the '50s ?)

Yeah, I've seen lots of photos of oopa's recovered from various subsurface situations. Unreconcilable, these discoveries are then routinely labeled fraudulent. Other than massive walls and foundations, I would expect practically all surface things from pre-cataclysm days were swept away and are buried under deep mud/rock/debris deposits or scattered on the sea floors. Some things may have been recovered by later folks and reused - such as the bronze cookware, pottery, etc from the 1500 BCE Minoans that were salvaged by later inhabitants on Crete. Thing is - other than the structural remains, it's all gone.

 

[BillA]

. . . . .
. . Thing is - other than the structural remains, it's all gone.

not quite, and these recoveries are recurring (46000 yr old bird carcass)
https://nerdist.com/article/46000-year-old-frozen-bird-carcass-sheds-light-on-evolution/

how about the pre-clovis lithic stuff ?

 

[Oroblanco]

Very long post, skip unless you have time and patience warning

This post is extremely long and is repeating things which were posted some time ago, my apologies in advance and please feel free to just skip this post entirely. Otherwise I must beg your indulgence for a few minutes.
Kanacki wrote

" The Americas ?" then if that was true knowledge of America was nearly 1500 years before Columbus?

That the ancients knew the Earth is a sphere, and SOME civilizations had knowledge of the existence of the Americas can be shown from their writings. Carthaginians knew of the Americas and were visiting them, Romans knew the Earth was round and even attempted an expedition to cross the Atlantic and meet with another expedition sent in the opposite direction but the ships turned back after a lengthy sail, without reaching the shores of America. Etruscans came to know of the Americas but left us no writings and we would not know of their discovery at all except for what was written about the Carthaginians. The Greeks were well aware of the globular form of the world, and in Plato we find a direct reference to what can only be the Americas. I will put that reference after these passages proving the ancients knew the world was a sphere:

Such, then, are the myths which are told about Mother of the Gods both among the Phrygians and by the Atlantians who dwell on the coast of the ocean.

p279 [link to original Greek text] 60 1 After the death of Hyperion,29 the myth relates, the kingdom was divided among the sons of Uranus, the most renowned of whom were Atlas and Cronus. Of these sons Atlas received as his part the regions on the coast of the ocean, and he not only gave the name of Atlantians to his peoples but likewise called the greatest mountain in the land Atlas. 2 They also say that he perfected the science of astrology and was the first to publish to mankind the doctrine of the sphere;30 and it was for this reason that the idea was held that the entire heavens were supported upon the shoulders of Atlas, the myth darkly hinting in this way at his discovery and description of the sphere.

From Diodorus Siculus Library of History book III chap. 59-60

But this explanation admits of an obvious rebuttal, for plainly it is quite impossible for a river to flow uphill into our inhabited world from the inhabited world opposite to ours, especially if one holds to p145 the theory that the earth is shaped like a sphere.

Diodorus Siculus book I, chap. 41, bold is there for emphasis, not in original text.

From Aristotle:

160."The shape of the earth is the first fact about which there is general agreement. At any rate we call the earth a sphere and admit that it is included within poles. The form, however, is not that of a perfect sphere, for there are high mountains and widely spreading plains ... But the continuous revolution of the universe around the earth forces her huge globe into the shape of a sphere."

161. "There is a great conflict between the learned and the man in the street at this juncture. Scholars assert that men are spread out all round the earth and stand with their feet pointing towards each other and that the top of the sky is alike for all of them and that their feet point down towards the centre of the earth from wherever they are. An ordinary person, however, enquires why men on the opposite side do not fall off - as if there is not an equally good reason for them wondering why we do not fall off."

**********************************************************************************

. We need not be troubled by the question, arising from the spherical shape of the world, how there can be a distinction of right and left within it, all parts being alike and all for ever in motion. We must think of the world as of something in which right differs from left in shape as well as in other respects, which subsequently is included in a sphere.

Aristotle, On the Heavens, book II part 2

From Pliny The Elder, Natural History, Book II chapters 160-161

CHAP. 2. (2.)–OF THE FORM OF THE WORLD1.
That it has the form of a perfect globe we learn from the name which has been uniformly given to it, as well as from numerous natural arguments. For not only does a figure of this kind return everywhere into itself2 and sustain itself, also including itself, requiring no adjustments, not sensible of either end or beginning in any of its parts, and is best fitted for that motion, with which, as will appear hereafter, it is continually turning round; but still more, because we perceive it, by the evidence of the sight, to be, in every part, convex and central, which could not be the case were it of any other figure.

Pliny the Elder Natural History Book II, chapter 2

CHAP. 3. (3.)–OF ITS NATURE; WHENCE THE NAME IS DERIVED.
The rising and the setting of the sun clearly prove, that this globe is carried round in the space of twenty-four hours, in an eternal and never-ceasing circuit, and with in- credible swiftness1.

Ibid, chap.3

From Strabo, in his examination of what had been published earlier by Eratosthenes:

(62)
In his Second Book Eratosthenes undertakes a revision of the principles of geography; and he declares his own assumptions, to which, in turn, if p233 there is any further revision to be made, I must undertake to supply it. Now his introduction of the principles of mathematics and physics into the subject is a commendable thing; also his remark that if the earth is sphere-shaped, just as the universe is, it is inhabited all the way round; and his other remarks of this nature. But as to the question whether the earth is as large as he has said, later writers do not agree with him; neither do they approve his measurement of the earth.179 Still, when Hipparchus plots the celestial phenomena for the several inhabited places, he uses, in addition, those intervals measured by Eratosthenes on the meridian through Meroë and Alexandria and the Borysthenes,180 after saying that they deviate but slightly from the truth. And, too, in Eratosthenes' subsequent discussion about the shape of the earth, when he demonstrates at greater length that not only the earth with its liquid constituent is sphere-shaped but the heavens also, he would seem to be talking about things that are foreign to his subject; for a brief statement is sufficient.181

Strabo Geography book i chapter 4 Strabo is agreeing with Eratosthenes on the shape of the world but not the dimensions.

Even in the bible we find some evidence of knowledge of the nature of the world;

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

<Job 26:7> in Isaiah it is mentioned that god sits on the 'circle of the Earth' but Isaiah also has reference to the 'four corners of the world' which has been used to support the flat earth theory.

Kanacki also wrote

While I am sure he took much information from the writings of Timaeus? Yet I can see no reference to Americas in Timaeus?

The first known reference to "Americas" was on 1507 map.

Yes as far as calling the Americas by that name of Americas. There was an interesting argument that the name America is the ancient Roman name, meaning 'land across the sea' but I don't know if that is published online anywhere. For the Carthaginians and Phoenicians, it was their own private 'secret land' and this bit of cartographical knowledge was not 'published' as we think of that term today. Sailors have always talked however and thus the knowledge of the land across the sea (America) became known to the Greeks, however imperfectly.

Kanacki also wrote

If there is a real historic document mentioning the America whose publication was long before predating 1507 that would be an amazing discovery in itself? However I have my doubts as modern translations can have things added in translation. Some times intentionally and some times un intentionally.

Then please do read this passage from Plato's Timaeus, quote

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.

Plato, Timaeus - I take issue only with the term 'larger' as a possible translation error, the Greek word in the original text is "megos" which can also mean "greater". If it only means 'larger' then Alexander the Great would be translated as Alexander the Large. The sea within the Straits being referred to is the Mediterranean in case anyone didn't make that connection, the Atlantic he named.

Anyway you can see in that portion put in bold, Plato is describing the American continents, which truly bounds the whole of the western edge of the Atlantic ocean. To seaborne navigators, it would appear to be one massive continent, and in truth is actually one because they were connected by land until the creation of the Panama canal. Plato simply wasn't calling it by the name America.

If you would like to read the passages in which ancient sources refer to the 'secret land' of the Carthaginians, I will happily provide links, however it is not too relevant to our topic here.

Apologies for the lengthy post. Please do continue;

 

[sdcfia]

not quite, and these recoveries are recurring (46000 yr old bird carcass)
https://nerdist.com/article/46000-year-old-frozen-bird-carcass-sheds-light-on-evolution/

how about the pre-clovis lithic stuff ?

Animal remains are interesting, but not a subject that I have the time to pursue - except the mammoth remains.

When I said "all gone", I was referring to what would happen to, say, a populated region hit with forces as postulated by DeLuc, Cuvier, Thomas, and, lately Vogt and others. Little or nothing remaining. Out of sight, out of mind.

It seems to me the pre-Clovis stuff is dated to just about the same time as the cataclysm (if you have faith in lithic dating), which could indicate that survivors may have had the technical skills enabling them to produce survival tools in a ravaged environment.

 

[Ryano]

Garbage, trash ? A worldwide advanced civilization creates a lot of waste unless they were recycling far beyond a scale known today. Even accounting for a cataclysmic event, why does “trash” that predates 12,000 years survive yet the more recent does not ?

Edit: Most examples of ancient trash pits predating the last Ice Age I could find were in cave shelters (France, Spain) so I suppose an argument could be made these areas were protected from the “event” that devastated this Atlantean civilization.. but then again the only things found in the caves are crude broken tools and animal harvesting/bone leftovers.

 

[Oroblanco]

Just wanted to add here a little bit. I had in mind to say 'a rose is a rose by any other name' when referring to the Americas, we ought not expect the continents to be called by a name that was not invented until 1507 when Amerigo Vespucci was so honored for his own discovery of Columbus' error.

Also neglected to mention the Norse discovery of America circa ~1000 or 1001-2 it seems the historians are in dispute about the exact year, by Leif Eriksson. An earlier near-discovery by Bjarni Herjulfsson in which his ship was carried by storms within sight of the Americas might have credited him with the first Norse discovery, but poor Bjarni decided not to set foot on shore. Eriksson bought the ship from Bjarni as it was considered a lucky ship, and for the record this was not a Viking longboat which was a warship, Eriksson's ship was almost certainly the Norse trading ship type called a Knarr. https://www.historynet.com/norse-knarr.htm

A side point also, but accidental crossings of the oceans have been occurring for over 2000 years as well. Pedro Alvarez Cabral was attempting to sail around Africa when his fleet of ships was carried far to the westward by violent storms, and found himself on the coast of Brazil in 1500. Apparently some ships have even been blown across the Pacific entirely by accident (or perhaps partly by design) and is posited by some theorists as the explanation of how the vast stretches of the Pacific became colonized by the Polynesians. I would point out here that according to Aristotle, the Carthaginians discovered America quite by accident as well, while attempting to found colonies on the west (Atlantic) coast of Africa and the ships were caught in a storm that carried them across the sea just as happened centuries later to Cabral.

This ancient tendency to keep the Americas a sort of trade secret for those who knew about it, continued well into the so called 'age of enlightenment' for we find maps and charts marked with hideous sea monsters and strange man-like creatures attributed to lands across the Atlantic, to discourage competitors from other states even to attempt the crossing. That the knowledge of the Earth being spherical in shape was lost in the Medeival period should not be too big a surprise as much knowledge was also lost besides, resulting in the spread of ignorance and the flat earth belief. It wasn't called the Dark Ages for nothing!

On the trash/garbage issue, I would point out that the other ancient sources on Atlantis do not include such advanced technologies as Plato assigned to it; no mention of any triremes or chariots or advanced plumbing. This is not to say that Atlantis was a bunch of cave dwellers, far from it - they were among the first agriculturalists, almost certainly livestock herders while still doing some hunting and gathering like more primitive peoples in existence at the time. That kind of civilization does not leave much trash for us to find - look at the island of Malta for an example of this. Also, even if Atlantis were a highly advanced culture, the garbage of highly advanced cultures is also highly degradable. Few things will endure for 1,000 years let alone 11,300~ or so. Glass, gold and some highly refined metal alloys will survive, other things will survive only in protected circumstances. I have a rather interesting tidbit on this aspect (artifacts) that I cannot share at this time, but I can tell you that ONE item from Atlantis did survive and get found by an archaeologist. If you do some research you will find out about it too. It turned up in a most unexpected place, in a dig for a completely unrelated culture.

Dang it almost forgot one other point - remember what Plato stated about the end of Atlantis, it was destroyed in a single day and night of earthquakes and floods. It does not state that the entire landmass sunk beneath the sea. Don't let Hollywood and other interpretations affect your expectations of Atlantis, read the source text for yourself carefully. Several big erroneous ideas get ingrained into this legend by the erroneous understanding of other authors and researchers, like the 'continent' bit - Plato is describing an island empire, and the main island is not any bigger than say Madagascar, which is easily extrapolated by his description of the lands and how the military forces are raised etc. The "larger than Asia and Africa combined" thing is a mistranslation for what should have said GREATER than, as the USA is greater than Russia in most aspects but Russia is larger.

Please do continue, sorry for getting carried away again!

 

[Oroblanco]

Afterthought - I should not have written entire landmass, meant to say that not ALL of the island empire sank.

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way;*** and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

Timaeus by Plato

Note the statement of "several others" (islands) and control of vast areas of the continent of Europe and Africa, at least along the coasts. These areas obviously did not sink beneath the sea, although sea levels have drastically changed since 9500 BC to today.

***the "shoals of mud" in the Atlantic affecting navigation are mentioned by the Carthaginian explorer Himilco, among others.

Also forgot to lay the blame for much misleading ideas about Atlantis at the real root of it - Hollywood! The movies re-imagined Atlantis into an impossible land.

 

[sdcfia]

Just wanted to add here a little bit. I had in mind to say 'a rose is a rose by any other name' when referring to the Americas, we ought not expect the continents to be called by a name that was not invented until 1507 when Amerigo Vespucci was so honored for his own discovery of Columbus' error.

Also neglected to mention the Norse discovery of America circa ~1000 or 1001-2 it seems the historians are in dispute about the exact year, by Leif Eriksson. An earlier near-discovery by Bjarni Herjulfsson in which his ship was carried by storms within sight of the Americas might have credited him with the first Norse discovery, but poor Bjarni decided not to set foot on shore. Eriksson bought the ship from Bjarni as it was considered a lucky ship, and for the record this was not a Viking longboat which was a warship, Eriksson's ship was almost certainly the Norse trading ship type called a Knarr. https://www.historynet.com/norse-knarr.htm

A side point also, but accidental crossings of the oceans have been occurring for over 2000 years as well. Pedro Alvarez Cabral was attempting to sail around Africa when his fleet of ships was carried far to the westward by violent storms, and found himself on the coast of Brazil in 1500. Apparently some ships have even been blown across the Pacific entirely by accident (or perhaps partly by design) and is posited by some theorists as the explanation of how the vast stretches of the Pacific became colonized by the Polynesians. I would point out here that according to Aristotle, the Carthaginians discovered America quite by accident as well, while attempting to found colonies on the west (Atlantic) coast of Africa and the ships were caught in a storm that carried them across the sea just as happened centuries later to Cabral.

This ancient tendency to keep the Americas a sort of trade secret for those who knew about it, continued well into the so called 'age of enlightenment' for we find maps and charts marked with hideous sea monsters and strange man-like creatures attributed to lands across the Atlantic, to discourage competitors from other states even to attempt the crossing. That the knowledge of the Earth being spherical in shape was lost in the Medeival period should not be too big a surprise as much knowledge was also lost besides, resulting in the spread of ignorance and the flat earth belief. It wasn't called the Dark Ages for nothing!

On the trash/garbage issue, I would point out that the other ancient sources on Atlantis do not include such advanced technologies as Plato assigned to it; no mention of any triremes or chariots or advanced plumbing. This is not to say that Atlantis was a bunch of cave dwellers, far from it - they were among the first agriculturalists, almost certainly livestock herders while still doing some hunting and gathering like more primitive peoples in existence at the time. That kind of civilization does not leave much trash for us to find - look at the island of Malta for an example of this. Also, even if Atlantis were a highly advanced culture, the garbage of highly advanced cultures is also highly degradable. Few things will endure for 1,000 years let alone 11,300~ or so. Glass, gold and some highly refined metal alloys will survive, other things will survive only in protected circumstances. I have a rather interesting tidbit on this aspect (artifacts) that I cannot share at this time, but I can tell you that ONE item from Atlantis did survive and get found by an archaeologist. If you do some research you will find out about it too. It turned up in a most unexpected place, in a dig for a completely unrelated culture.

Dang it almost forgot one other point - remember what Plato stated about the end of Atlantis, it was destroyed in a single day and night of earthquakes and floods. It does not state that the entire landmass sunk beneath the sea. Don't let Hollywood and other interpretations affect your expectations of Atlantis, read the source text for yourself carefully. Several big erroneous ideas get ingrained into this legend by the erroneous understanding of other authors and researchers, like the 'continent' bit - Plato is describing an island empire, and the main island is not any bigger than say Madagascar, which is easily extrapolated by his description of the lands and how the military forces are raised etc. The "larger than Asia and Africa combined" thing is a mistranslation for what should have said GREATER than, as the USA is greater than Russia in most aspects but Russia is larger.

Please do continue, sorry for getting carried away again!

Re early visitors to the Americas, don't leave out the amazing Basque (amazing on several levels). The earliest Europeans landing in today's New England and eastern Canada were startled to find that they could communicate with the indigenous tribes by using the Basque language. It seems that the Grand Banks and other waters were secretly fished by the Basque for cod at least a century prior to Columbus. Some argue that the practice may have dated back even earlier in the Middle Ages.

Obviously, on the other side of the North American continent, we have excursions from Asia to the "New World" as far back as the 5th century CE. These anomalous reports don't fit the "Columbus narrative" and are, of course, completely unknown to we of the innocent and conditioned masses. Imagine what else may not fit into the tidy timeline prior to our soundbite version of history. Then try to imagine even further back in time. Trying to speculate about human civilization 12,000 years back is a fool's errand without any reliable physical evidence. In that case, all we have are enigmatic architectural ruins that seem to display a technology that should not have existed then.

By the way, concerning Plato - no original manuscripts from his time have survived. Fragments of the earliest "copies" date to about 500 years after his death. What about the complete later copies that do exist? Are these exact copies, language interpretations, edited stories, or what? Can we accept "his" Atlantis story as exactly what "he" wrote? As Tolstoy said, "History would be a wonderful thing - if only it were true."

 

[BillA]

another

https://gizmodo.com/stone-tools-suggest-supervolcano-eruption-didn-t-decima-1841916828

74000 years would span 6 cycles ? ?

would evolution not be affected by cyclic 'endings' ?
the record says not

 

[sdcfia]

another

https://gizmodo.com/stone-tools-suggest-supervolcano-eruption-didn-t-decima-1841916828

74000 years would span 6 cycles ? ?

would evolution not be affected by cyclic 'endings' ?
the record says not

Per the article," human beings survived it and are still around today." Look at it as a reset.

 

[research guy]

I would say that if anyone ever found Atlantis, it would probably be a treasure of unheard of wealth. Other than the tons of gold it supposedly has there are artifacts and historical valuable relics!

Lets talk about this place, where is it located and what can WE do to help someone find it? Anyone has maps they are sitting on, with the location of Atlantis?

Unfortunately maps won’t help you on this topic. There are maps that depict Atlantis, but those maps won’t do you much good. Essentially everything that is known about Atlantis comes from short writings of Plato, and this was second hand information he received from his grandfather. To complicate this a bit further, that information That was given to his grandfather from Egyptian priests and was supposedly 9000 years old at the time he received it. but the Egyptians related to platos grandfather the successful resistance of the Atlanteans attacks on the “Greek” people 9000 years previous.

Maps of Atlantis portray the island as being somewhere west of the rocks of Gibraltar in the “Atlantic” ocean, and by default, that’s a very large search area to try and comprehend and search.

From an evidence standpoint, it is best to disregard the idea of Atlantis being west of the rocks of Gibraltar, and concentrate on the tangible evidence that is presented in Platos description.

According to Platos description, Atlantis was destroyed by massive flood waters, in a very short period of time. this is a very important fact to consider.

This topic is not a simple nut to crack. while researching another completely unrelated topic, I found some potential Atlantis evidence that is hiding right under your nose where it is difficult to see, but effectively right in front of everybody’s face.

Atlantis is hypothetically recognized as the worlds first Known advanced civilization. the realty is that we don’t give ancient societies the credit they deserve concerning how advanced they potentially could have been. I’m not taking about a societies civilians walking around with iPhones, but you really need to consider what an ancient society is capable of.

Using Roman, Egyptian, Greek etc., architecture as a reference, consider that these later structures have withstood time, geological natural disasters, ecological change, enemy invasion and destruction, among other factors. Yet we still don’t understand how how ancient societies were capable of erecting these structures with such precision, durability, and unique architecture features. We sent men to the moon to collect moon rocks about 50 years ago, but we somehow don’t understand how an ancient society was able to quarry massively huge obelisks, transport them great distances, and then erect them In place with Exceedingly fine precision and durability. Greece, Iran, Italy, Iraq, turkey..... these are places that regularly experience big earthquakes and volcanic eruptions. The ground literally shakes, and has done so hundreds if not thousands of times through antiquity, but these “stone structures” still stand. Is this the work of a people one step out of being cavemen? Surely not.

What I am telling you is to consider about these ancient societies is that we don’t know, what we don’t know. One thing that is for sure, is that they were more advanced than we know to give them credit for, or have evidence to prove with at this point.

Because of the reported layout of Atlantis, with a centralized town center, and concentric circles advancing outward from the center Separated by water, people believe that the society was essentially built upon a super-volcano collapsed lava dome that caused the geographic features Plato described. They speculate that Atlantis was destroyed in its entirety when the volcano erupted again in that modern era, and that the collapse of the remnant features Atlantis is speculated to be built upon, simply fell into the ocean upon this eruption. while this is a legitimate hypothesis, there is no way to test the theory because you don’t have the actual location and/or archeology to compare with. This makes all the speculation, completely conjecture. There isn’t tangible evidence that can be taken from this conjecture. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t tangible evidence available.

When you do the math, you have to start with Plato and he lived circa 400 BC. His grandfather, another 50 years before that, so that puts you at 450bc. Now add 9000 years to that, and that brings you to 9450 BC. Add the years to present from Plato to current modern era and you have a grand total of 11670 years ago. This is a very important time period in the geological record. It’s called the “Younger Dryas” period, and may offer much more tangible answers as to why Atlantis was quickly and catastrophically destroyed in such a short period of time by water, and not a volcanic super eruption that isn’t recorded in the geological record for this time period.

I love researching history, and attempting to solve these types of abstract problems. I have more information and evidence concerning this topic but I will leave it here for the time being.

 

[Ryano]

recent article (written for popular audience) by a field archaeologist that supports a catastrophic collision circa 12,000 years ago

https://earthsky.org/earth/asteroid-comet-younger-dryas-abrupt-cooling

 

[sdcfia]

recent article (written for popular audience) by a field archaeologist that supports a catastrophic collision circa 12,000 years ago

https://earthsky.org/earth/asteroid-comet-younger-dryas-abrupt-cooling

From article: " ... While many studies have provided evidence supporting the Younger Dryas impact, others have failed to replicate evidence. Some have suggested that materials such as microspherules and nanodiamonds can be formed by other processes and do not require the impact of a comet or asteroid. ..."

They say the temperatures required to form those glass spheres could only have been achieved on our sun during a micronova event expelling the dust shroud material surrounding its surface. They also say the primary reason we went to the moon 50 years ago wasn't for the political prestige gained against CCCP (although that was certainly a terrific coup at the time), but to search for the nodules on the lunar surface. They were found, helping to verify the alleged sun event. The "they" include, among others, the folks mentioned back in Post #1881. Funny that the Chang material from the 60s was classified by the CIA. Huh. Modern cosmology, based on the electro-magnetic model of the physical universe, is rapidly dispelling the old gravitational models. It's all about timing, and our planet's major cycles, at least from a human point of view, seems to glove-fit into 12,000 year slices.

Back to Atlantis - Plato's account, despite the fact-checking shortcomings, certainly fits the 12,000 year cycle.