Atocha estate sale find- words of wisdom??

[JuannyChico]

Finally found a good deal for an Atocha coin but the sale came with no paperwork. I’ve done some light reading and know it’s almost a lost cause in getting it officially recognized. No matter, I’m planning on wearing it for some time but I would love some self assurance. I know almost nothing about signs and signals towards authenticating this. I know casts of the coin are popular. Anything advice or signs that I can count on regarding this piece? It’s bought from an estate sale and weights 29 grams total, bevel 14k gold as listed. Don’t even know if that’s authentic.

Paid $450

 

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[Oddjob]

Is that how you learn, by playing the guessing game.

 

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[PetesPockets55]

Glad to know my first inclination was wrong.
I have no experience with these but I was thinking fake because of the pitting. I realize the salt water will corrode the surface but cast pieces will also exhibit a pitted surface with weak interior details to the devices.

It will be interesting to hear the attributed for it being real.

Edit: does it have anything to do with the cracks in the rim appearing on both sides and not just one side?
Enlarging the image and with closer scrutiny, the pitting on the surface appears larger than than cast fakes.

 

[Spanish digger]

Pillar an waves coin.1650s or later..

 

[Doubter in MD]

Pillar an waves coin.1650s or later..

Wow! Welcome to T-Net! What an amazing coincidence that you joined just in time to "guess" at what Diver Down might have seen. Incredible. Really.

 

[JuannyChico]

It is not Atocha. 100% certainty. It is a genuine 8 R sea salvaged piece. I will give you more reasoning and explanation this afternoon. I want to wait for others to figure it out. It is easy for those that know what to look for.

I’m certainly waiting patiently for some replies. I was hoping to get details on this. From what I’m told from the estate sale is the gold was tested and confirmed 14k. The frame is very custom and I don’t think it would be wasted on a decoy.

Looking forward to hearing more

 

[Diver_Down]

Wow! Welcome to T-Net! What an amazing coincidence that you joined just in time to "guess" at what Diver Down might have seen. Incredible. Really.

Don't insinuate that I created a duplicate account. It is really basic info that I lobbed up there for someone to hit out of the park. Because you didn't want to put any effort into making an educated guess, then don't criticize others for taking a swing.

 

[misplacedrednek]

I’m certainly waiting patiently for some replies. I was hoping to get details on this. From what I’m told from the estate sale is the gold was tested and confirmed 14k. The frame is very custom and I don’t think it would be wasted on a decoy.

Looking forward to hearing more

The bezel is 14K and the coin is copy of an Atocha coin (supposedly an actual cast of an actual coin from the wreck) and is supposed to be made of silver ingot recovered from the wreck. The website I posted earlier has been selling these for years. No guessing required.

Matt

P.S. The details of the coin and what it and the bezel are made of are also on the website.

 

[Diver_Down]

Not to string this out any further as some are reluctant to want to make educated guesses.

First, The Atocha sank in 1622. Your piece has the Pillars and Waves style that is from the 1650's and later. Hence, 100% it can not have any provenance to Atocha.

Second, when you enlarge the photos, you can plainly see an assayer on the Pillars side. And a date on the Cross side. The date is 1665 with an assayer of Antonio de Ergueta. It was also minted in Potosi.

No idea what wreck it would be salvaged from. But with the sea salt corrosion, it would likely have sold wholesale to jewlers without any credible COA. The bad news (other than it not being an Atocha piece) is the value. The mount is an attractive and well-made piece, but the coin itself is a low grade. It likely would have a $150-$200 retail. Maybe more, if it was in a tourist town. Atocha pieces always carry a premium as it is not just a treasure coin, but a piece of Mel's American dream that people want to own. If it was an actual Atocha piece with paperwork, then you would have been in the right neighborhood regarding what you paid for what is considered a grade 4. A grade 1 (very rare) is valued $1200.

 

[Diver_Down]

The bezel is 14K and the coin is copy of an Atocha coin (supposedly an actual cast of an actual coin from the wreck) and is supposed to be made of silver ingot recovered from the wreck. The website I posted earlier has been selling these for years. No guessing required.

Matt

Wrong. The website that you linked and RTR owns a piece from does what you describe. But the OP's piece is a real 1665 8R Potosi | Antonio de Ergueta.

 

[JuannyChico]

Wrong. The website that you linked and RTR owns a piece from does what you describe. But the OP's piece is a real 1665 8R Potosi | Antonio de Ergueta.

Although I would be completely satisfied with a duplicate Atocha, I looked through your posted site, and several other shops. I haven’t found a duplicate coin with anywhere near the corrosion marks, cracks or “wear” like the pictures I posted. Being the owner I’m more biased to believe it’s an authentic but I can’t see this being a duplicate without any outliers.
Are the waves on the back side a sign it’s not even Atocha?

 

[JuannyChico]

Oops. I meant to reply to redneck. Thanks for the info Diver

 

[Oddjob]

Don't insinuate that I created a duplicate account. It is really basic info that I lobbed up there for someone to hit out of the park. Because you didn't want to put any effort into making an educated guess, then don't criticize others for taking a swing.

Feeling special or something.

 

[Diver_Down]

Although I would be completely satisfied with a duplicate Atocha, I looked through your posted site, and several other shops. I haven’t found a duplicate coin with anywhere near the corrosion marks, cracks or “wear” like the pictures I posted. Being the owner I’m more biased to believe it’s an authentic but I can’t see this being a duplicate without any outliers.
Are the waves on the back side a sign it’s not even Atocha?

Yes. The Pillars and Waves style came about due to a mint scandal that was minting underweight pieces. They were put to death. A new design was needed to assure the public that coins with the new design were legitimate. Your piece also has a date of 1665. A piece cannot be minted with a new design and minted in 1665 and end up on a boat that sank in 1622.

 

[misplacedrednek]

A post was made asking for opinions and I gave mine without blatantly telling someone they were wrong. Until a COA shows up, it's sent off to be graded/authenticated, or the captain of that sunken ship makes an appearance to say his piece or whatever, we can look at this like Schrodinger's cat.....we can all be wrong and right at the same time.


Also, you can purchase the jewelry coins like this with other types of coins from other shipwrecks, not just the Atocha.

 

[Diver_Down]

A post was made asking for opinions and I gave mine without blatantly telling someone they were wrong. Until a COA shows up, it's sent off to be graded/authenticated, or the captain of that sunken ship makes an appearance to say his piece or whatever, we can look at this like Schrodinger's cat.....we can all be wrong and right at the same time.


Also, you can purchase the jewelry coins like this with other types of coins from other shipwrecks, not just the Atocha.

But your reply actually was stating a fact.

"The bezel is 14K and the coin is copy of an Atocha coin (supposedly an actual cast of an actual coin from the wreck) and is supposed to be made of silver ingot recovered from the wreck. The website I posted earlier has been selling these for years. No guessing required."

The only thing factual in your reply is that the website that was linked earlier does make copies from Atocha silver bars. But stating that the OP's piece is a copy of an Atocha coin is factually wrong. No guessing is required to make that declaration. You can not have a coin dated 1665 end up on a boat that sank in 1622. That is a fact and doesn't require any COA, TPG, or Captain Pegleg to state with authority. It is common logic.

 

[misplacedrednek]

But your reply actually was stating a fact.

"The bezel is 14K and the coin is copy of an Atocha coin (supposedly an actual cast of an actual coin from the wreck) and is supposed to be made of silver ingot recovered from the wreck. The website I posted earlier has been selling these for years. No guessing required."

The only thing factual in your reply is that the website that was linked earlier does make copies from Atocha silver bars. But stating that the OP's piece is a copy of an Atocha coin is factually wrong. No guessing is required to make that declaration. You can not have a coin dated 1665 end up on a boat that sank in 1622. That is a fact and doesn't require any COA, TPG, or Captain Pegleg to state with authority. It is common logic.

you win.

 

[crabstang44]

You got ripped, sorry, also diver den your a real air head

 

[JuannyChico]

Eh, I don’t feel ripped off. The coin, although not Atocha, is a geuine Spanish 8 reale, possibly with value over $200 and includes a nice looking custom 14k bevel. It’s good looking, I know it’s authentic ( won’t need to bring it in for testing regarding Atocha).
Also Diver Den was the only person who provided any accurate info. Not sure why all the silly tones are flying around here. All I’ve got from other forums was mostly the same “ not real, fake Atocha. Stop asking more questions”.

I appreciate he help from all, but mainly Diver with some good facts.

 

[treasuresalvor]

Looks nice regardless.

 

[CRUSADER]

Eh, I don’t feel ripped off. The coin, although not Atocha, is a geuine Spanish 8 reale, possibly with value over $200 and includes a nice looking custom 14k bevel. It’s good looking, I know it’s authentic ( won’t need to bring it in for testing regarding Atocha).
Also Diver Den was the only person who provided any accurate info. Not sure why all the silly tones are flying around here. All I’ve got from other forums was mostly the same “ not real, fake Atocha. Stop asking more questions”.

I appreciate he help from all, but mainly Diver with some good facts.

Well, you have just proved the old aitch that 'something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it'. But some on here, like myself think that was too much. Especially as IMO you did it the wrong way around, you brought first & asked questions later. If I'm spending that kind of money on a coin I know all the answers first. However, what I say is irrelevant if your happy with it.