Ban on detecting makes local news

[Tom_in_CA]

Goody, I know you are saying that the current bootings are of people who have not gone in and made themselves a target for a "no", by having asked. (ie.: guilty of failing the psychology of "no one cared till they asked" routine).

But backing up BEFORE them in time, to whenever the very first booting, (or law or whatever) occured, what was the genesis of THAT? The reason I ask is, perhaps THAT was the result, of someone earlier, going in and asking. And when their "pressing question" get bandied around through the chain, and gets a "no", and thus ... bootings started. When perhaps prior to that, it wouldn't have garnered a second look?

To put this question in perspective, an example: In the late 1980s, there was a state campground here that used to be hunted by a friend of mine for silver coins. He had never had a problem, nor had the persons in the years prior to him, who turned him on to detecting and took him there. Yup, right in front of rangers, etc... No one cared. Then one day, a newbie, who just got his first detector, went to the kiosk and asked "can I metal detect?" The confused clerk had never heard such a question, so they looked hither and yonder through various books and manuals to find any answer. Then they made a few calls to other dept's, perhaps Sacramento, etc... They return to the window and tell the fellow "no". The dejected mdr's leaves. About a week later, my friend who had routinely detected this park was detecting it, and .......... guess what? Yup, he got booted! When he asked why, it was the same song and dance as Louisville says: "cultural heritage, you can't do that, blah blah". My friend was bewildered why/how this had never been an issue. He left. Later he heard through the grapevine about the newbie at the kiosk, so my friend was able to connect the dots and the time-line.

So in the same way my friend did not generate his own "no", yet you can see that it was others who went before him who did. Thus if you were to apply this example to Louisville, do you think there were earlier incidents that brought about this policy?

 

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[Goodyguy]

Goody, I know you are saying that the current bootings are of people who have not gone in and made themselves a target for a "no", by having asked. (ie.: guilty of failing the psychology of "no one cared till they asked" routine).

But backing up BEFORE them in time, to whenever the very first booting, (or law or whatever) occured, what was the genesis of THAT? The reason I ask is, perhaps THAT was the result, of someone earlier, going in and asking. And when their "pressing question" get bandied around through the chain, and gets a "no", and thus ... bootings started. When perhaps prior to that, it wouldn't have garnered a second look?

To put this question in perspective, an example: In the late 1980s, there was a state campground here that used to be hunted by a friend of mine for silver coins. He had never had a problem, nor had the persons in the years prior to him, who turned him on to detecting and took him there. Yup, right in front of rangers, etc... No one cared. Then one day, a newbie, who just got his first detector, went to the kiosk and asked "can I metal detect?" The confused clerk had never heard such a question, so they looked hither and yonder through various books and manuals to find any answer. Then they made a few calls to other dept's, perhaps Sacramento, etc... They return to the window and tell the fellow "no". The dejected mdr's leaves. About a week later, my friend who had routinely detected this park was detecting it, and .......... guess what? Yup, he got booted! When he asked why, it was the same song and dance as Louisville says: "cultural heritage, you can't do that, blah blah". My friend was bewildered why/how this had never been an issue. He left. Later he heard through the grapevine about the newbie at the kiosk, so my friend was able to connect the dots and the time-line.

So in the same way my friend did not generate his own "no", yet you can see that it was others who went before him who did. Thus if you were to apply this example to Louisville, do you think there were earlier incidents that brought about this policy?

Tom,
as I stated in my last post:

The initial reason for the oustings was that someone with connections in high places in local government witnessed someone digging in the park and complained. Evidently that person was very influential. It was rumored to be the mother of the mayor at that time.

The story goes that when she confronted the person who was doing the digging and asked him what he was doing, he was very rude to her and told her to f-off and mind her own business or something to that effect. (the story probably has been exaggerated over time)
Not something you would want to say to the mayors wife, mother, relative, campaign contributor, or anyone else for that matter

*NOTE it was not a member of the local club who was responsible for that act. The incident was described to a club member by an unidentified source who had connections to the parks department.

GG~

 

[Goodyguy]

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[Ky Ed]

I appreciate the thoughts of all those that took the time to repond to the article. I talked to the Louisville Police officer and the Chief of Police as well. The ticket that would be written for metal detecting in the parks is "Trespassing" not for metal detecting! When getting arrested for not leaving the park, it's because we resisted the Police officer's request. Still nothing to do with detecting. We are trespassing a policy of the park nothing more. Please tell me how to fight this battle as I talked to a lawer in Louisville and three hours research on this matter is more than I make on retirement pay in about five months. It's too expensive! I guess the City knows that as well. I am open to how to do this as most cannot get arrested and afford the devestating cost to their budget. I tried Pro Bono and did no good. I have spent hours asking attorneys and judges what to do. Their answer is get it into the courts and fight it there! What do I do by myself. Our club is too poor to afford this financial battle as well. I am not asking for money here! Just give me your thoughts. I have never asked for finances and never will. Too many resposibilities to gather money and try to keep records as to where every penny goes. I need legal advice to win this and then we can go after all the other states that have randomly shut down their state and city parks without the public opinion. I will continue to fight this by the media as long as I can. I wish this battle was simple but the folks in the background have a lot of power and I cannot find out who "they" are that have infiltrated the detectors rights to hunt on or in pubilc parks and even private land. Senator Meeks tries each year in the Ky. State Senate to pass a law making it illegal to relic hunt on private property each year. I have called my Senators to repeal this state bill to stop him. So far I and others have been successful. Please help me win the rights for all to hunt in our parks! Ky. Ed

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ky Ed, If no one there is willing to simply go get a ticket, in order to "get their day in court", then your options are sort of limited. I do not think the person would end up paying anything, since I firmly believe the md'r (presuming he was breaking no actual laws), would not get anything to stick. Sure it's no fun to sit there in a cattle call in a courtroom waiting for your turn, but ...... it's also no fun not being able to detect. So the lesser of two evils is to fight it.

As for the ticket being for "trespassing", I believe the legal explanation is as follows: Duly appointed authority figures (police, rangers, city employees, etc...) are given a wide degree of latitude on interpretting existing laws/rules, so as to fit a myriad of circumstances as they arise. So for example: if a there was a law against nudity in your parks there, and if you were wearing a single sock, you might try to argue semantics with the cop and say: "But officer, I wasn't technically nude, since I was wearing one sock". You can see that in that case, the officer is given room to apply the rule as he sees fit, and "interpret" that you are still nude, in his opinion. Another example: If a sign says "dogs on leash only", and you simply let your dog run free, with a leash dangling behind him. You might try to tell the officer: "But officer, I wasn't breaking any laws, since my dog WAS on a leash. There was no law saying I must be holding the other end". As you can see, you could try to argue semantics, but the officer is still given latitude to "interpret" the leash law, and determine you are breaking it.

I know this sounds arbitrary and capricious. Because afterall, what's to stop a cop or ranger from booting everyone wearing blue shirts, because he "thinks they're disruptive to other park users", or "because he thinks they'll harm the earthworms". Nonetheless, this power of application/interpretation needs to be in the authority figures hands, lest they spend all their time arguing semantics out in the field. Get it?

So using the "blue shirt" analogy (where it's easy to see the guy wearing a blue shirt is not hurting or disrupting anyone, and they simply can not find a law that can remotely be morphed to disallow the wearing of blue shirts), then the person would need to get a ticket, and go show they were doing no harm.

I see no other way to go about this, since it's an issue that, as everyone agrees, has no actual written rules prohibiting detecting. So if you got lawyers, there's nothing there for them to fight. So the way to fight it is, to get a ticket, and ask what law you were violating. Seems that as long as you were doing no harm, and there's nothing saying "no detecting", then your ticket would be dismissed, and thus act as a precedent for all others after that.

So someone needs to go detecting. Make sure you just wander around and only poke for surface clad by the way (or just do sandbox hunting, or just swing the thing with the power turned off for that matter!). When/if a cop tells you to scram, ask for a ticket. You can ........ with a smile ...... tell him it's a civil disobedience issue, and that you're sorry for the hassle, etc...

 

[Ky Ed]

We have talked to a Legal Advisor and he said: You can be arrested for criminal trespass. You would be passing a policy that is not enforceable by law. I don't understand, nor can I agree with his advice. Ky. Ed

 

[G.I.B.]

KY_ED,

Trespassing is a law that can be enforced, but it has to have something behind it. There has to be a reason you were told to leave, other than, "Because I said so."

If you are going to be thrown off of public land, you being the public, there has to be some legitimate reason behind that order.

I suggest you find a new lawyer. One that is looking to make a name for themselves, willing to battle the city and get into court. You should be able to find that lawyer with a little research. By newspaper articles you will see who really dislikes the city by cases they file.

Once you have a lawyer willing to work for name recognition, you will need to get yourself charged with trespassing. Then the court battle begins.

We had a situation in Florida with boating. It had to do with the city of Marco Island restricting boaters rights. The city, at the bequest of the wealthy, banned anchoring near the wealthy homes. It took a guy intentionally anchoring there, telling the cops he wasn't leaving until they wrote him the ticket. It took a few day's, but they finally wrote him the ticket and he left. The lawyer was working on this for free. He got some great publicity from it.

The case went to court and the city was forced to remove the law from the books as unconstitutional.

Little guys can win, they just have to be willing to go the extra mile.

 

[coinman123]

goody, is it just my computer, or is the video no longer up there? I had just read the text accompanying the video earlier, and assumed the video was the same. Now though, when I go to try to watch the video, it's no longer there?

Anyhow, is this Louisville thing because they think the STATE disallows it, on all land, even down to city and county level? (ie.: "all public land")? If so, then the city is wrong to draw that interpretation, as we both agree. Or is this because only Louisville itself, simply decided to enact such a thing, and is NOT drawing on state-level laws, in their justification or rationale? If it is simply a single city saying this, then you're right: they can come up with any silly stuff they want (ie.: "you might harm the earthworms", etc..) and then yes, by all means fight it.

If it is only a city level thing, then why are you citing a state-level law, in the beginning of the post??

So please help me clear this up, because several years ago, there was in fact a post started on the subject of KY, where indeed a state level archie was saying a ban applied to the whole state, down to even city and county levels, blah blah blah. Is this not related to that, or is it? Or is it an individual city's whim?

yes if it's an individual city's whim, then by all means don't sneak around, and by all means fight it.

So please clear this up. If the video cleared that up, does anyone have a working link?

Same here, video is gone