Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy , 1997

[alaskabill]

Having reviewed many posts I have found several comments about Charles Kenworthy, but no detailed opinions about his book, Treasure Secreds of the Lost Dutchman. I'll stick my neck out and say that IMHO CK did a reasonable job explaining how he used the maps and clues to arrive at the site and conclusions he did. But I have a few questions and hope some of you sourdough Dutch Hunders can provide more insight.

1. Can anyone verify that Kenworthy used original Spanish/Mexican methods to intrepret the maps and symbols?

2. I have passed through Labarge Canyon several times and never noticed the markers. Has anyone else seen the "weedhook" or the "D" on the south side of the canyon?

3. Has anyone been able to inspect the site in the photos on pages 54 and 55 and if so, is there any evidence of historical mining activity?

4. Amy Mosier in her book Treasure Maps of the Superstitions reports that Kenworthy removed $13.5 million in gold from his claims Quo Vidas I through VII in Labarge Canon. A copy of Kenworthy's filings are on page 95 of her book. Can this discovery be verified?

Thanks in advance,

Bill

 

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[Ellie Baba]

Hi Bill,

I was wondering if anyone would respond per Kenworthy's LDM book. I have not read it as I am not a believer in the LDM per say. Jacob Waltz lived and died and was known to roam the Soups and frequently went to Florence for supplies, etc. He was a sentinel whose job was to guard and protect a number of depositories that were located in the greater Florence depository area. If you are interested in learning more about this historical documented scenario let me know.

have a great week,

EB

 

[cactusjumper]

Ellie,

"He was a sentinel whose job was to guard and protect a number of depositories that were located in the greater Florence depository area."

The first question that comes to mind is, why is Bill the only one you are making your document offer to? I imagine there are any number of members here who would love to see this " historical documented scenario". That would, of course, include me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[alaskabill]

Ellie,

"He was a sentinel whose job was to guard and protect a number of depositories that were located in the greater Florence depository area."

The first question that comes to mind is, why is Bill the only one you are making your document offer to? I imagine there are any number of members here who would love to see this " historical documented scenario". That would, of course, include me.

Take care,

Joe

Hi EB and Joe,

How about if we start a new thread on Waltz's guard/caretaker duties near Florence and leave this thread for comments on Ks book.

I just got another email.... I think you guys are faster than I can post...!

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

I have never been a big fan of Kenworthy, or his books. The man lied to a friend of mine, and he has been a Kenworthy fan ever since. I have the DVD of Kenworthy explaining his theories on the Stone Maps, and he couldn't remember how he figured it out. Many of the people who were there, were embarrassed for the man.

Other's who knew him, said he saw shadow signs, monuments, carvings.......in every view. On the other hand, I am sure he was a fine man. Believe he was a fish out of water, so to speak, in the Superstitions.

I would like to hear from anyone who has found a (verifiable) mine or treasure using his "King's Code".

Just my opinion, so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[alaskabill]

... The man lied to a friend of mine, and he has been a Kenworthy fan ever since.

Hi Joe,

I guess you mean that "...he has NOT been a K fan ever since. " I cannot think of a faster way for a person to loose credibility, particularly if that person sets themselves up as an expert or authority on a subject. I've let "friends" like that just drift away.

After 30 years of military service and experience investigating two major aircraft accidents, I have learned that there are always two sides of the issue, sometimes extreme differences, and truth lies somewhere in the middle.

At this point, I haven't decided where K falls along the credibility spectrum. I always am initially skeptical when an author does not include references where needed. The professional writer will use proper grammar, spelling, word usage, and good sentence construction.... and not every letter of text as a capital letter like K does in this book. This attention to detail helps to establish credibility and believability for the reader. I only know K through his books and do hope we get more comments on his analysis in this book. His other books give me more pause. Particularly Spanish Monuments and Trail Markers... K sees things in many of these examples that I cannot see, so I understand how he gets mixed reviews. I hope others will comment on TS of the LD.

BTW, I haven't seen the K DVD you refer to; do you know if it is still available?

From Alaska with shivers...

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

The lie took place a number of years ago, over lunch in Apache Junction. At that time, Kenworthy said he had hired Dr. Eugene Lyon, same man who helped Mel Fisher find the Atocha, to search the archives in Seville, Spain. Claimed that Dr. Lyon found the "King's Code" documents, and sent him copies. We had both tried to get into personal contact with Dr. Lyon, without success.

About a month or so ago, I talked to Dr. Lyon on the phone. He told me he had never worked for Chuck Kenworthy, and had never heard of the King's Code. My friend now knows the truth about something he has believed for years.

I did not ask him what he thought of Kenworthy's theories now. Old dreams die hard.

I believe the tape is still available and will try to find out.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Ellie Baba]

Ellie,

"He was a sentinel whose job was to guard and protect a number of depositories that were located in the greater Florence depository area."

The first question that comes to mind is, why is Bill the only one you are making your document offer to? I imagine there are any number of members here who would love to see this " historical documented scenario". That would, of course, include me.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

Sorry about that. I was referring to my personal documentation and my experiences with Bob Brewer and others that had influenced my thoughts and beliefs in regards to the Spanish (Peralta) influences regarding the Stone Maps and the LDM. My focus is on Jacob Waltz, his involvement with the Florence Depository Area, and his primary responsibilities to the Secret Society which he was a part/member of. I must admit that much of my documentation is specific and to share it names several sentinels that some may be familiar with which are tied to locations where depositories have been hidden. So far I have been sharing what I can and will continue to do so. Bill has not been exposed to my belief system and I was going to suggest that he read Bob Brewer's books plus other reading material. You will see what he sees. I would never leave any of you my friends in the dust.
Have a great week,
EB

 

[alaskabill]

... The lie took place a number of years ago, over lunch in Apache Junction. At that time, Kenworthy said he had hired Dr. Eugene Lyon, same man who helped Mel Fisher find the Atocha, to search the archives in Seville, Spain. Claimed that Dr. Lyon found the "King's Code" documents, and sent him copies. We had both tried to get into personal contact with Dr. Lyon, without success.

About a month or so ago, I talked to Dr. Lyon on the phone. He told me he had never worked for Chuck Kenworthy, and had never heard of the King's Code. My friend now knows the truth about something he has believed for years.

I did not ask him what he thought of Kenworthy's theories now. Old dreams die hard.

I believe the tape is still available and will try to find out.

Take care,

Joe

What a sad state of affairs. It is amazing that a "researcher" would lie about a thing like that. I am amazed that publishers don't screen author's claims before they print unsubstantiated "facts" and conclusions. Perhaps Quest Publishing is actually C. A. Kenworthy and he just self-published his books, therefore not needing to validate his claims to anyone before printing and selling his tale.

But it brings another question to my mind. Is there any such thing as or like "The King's Code" or a set of "official" symbols and interpretations? If so,do you know of anyone or any publication that accurately explains these map-making standards?

Still curious,

Bill

 

[alaskabill]

...... To answer your question the book is called "De Re Metalli ca".

And another I believe is called "The Rocks Begin to Speak". ....

Bob

Hi Bob and thanks for the leads.

After some online searching, I found both texts on Amazon, but neither was what I was looking for: an explanation of what rules the Spanish Royalty required (if it even exists) to document gold discoveries and depositories in the New World, the symbols and trail markers used, and their interpretations. Some folks indicate that there was a "King's Code" that explained these things. I have seen several books on "signs and symbols" and those authors claim to know how to interpret them, but provide no reference for those interpretations. I think each of those authors created their own interpretations but do not explain how they came to these conclusions.... but it sure does sell a lot of books.

The index available online at Amazon for the book De Re Metallica lists only a single page to "map making" and I believe the author is referring to how the early European miners sketched out the lay of the mine and deposit they were digging. A single page does not seem enough discussion to explain the rules, symbols, and mapmaking to locate mines and deposits in the New World by the Spanish. Amazon also posted a sort of "Forward" that explains the purpose, focus, and main topics in this translation. See image below.



The other book, The Rocks Begin To Speak focuses on picture writing by Native Americans. According to purchasers of this book, the author makes the case that those pictographs are more than art. They also could indicate trails to water or a method to document history or a significant event in the lives of those early Native Americans. I have a few books about picture writing by Native Americans but not this one. I do plan to add this one to my collection. It sounds very interesting.

But, if there is any writing or book on the "King's Code", we'll have to continue the search. Dr. Lyon's comments to Cactusjumper may have been an attempt to protect and keep such information confidential that is available in Spanish Archives but not generally known. At least the current sign and symbol "experts" are not providing the supporting documents to strengthen their interpretations and conclusions.

Again, thanks, Bob, for the suggestions. Gotta crank up the Yamaha Grizzly and go plow the lane... got 5 inches of snow last two days.

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

You are not the first to search for any documentation for the "King's Code". I believe it does not exist, and never did. If you think about it, it is illogical to think it would be kept secret. I have never seen where Kenworthy published that he had found the codes.

If you find them, the treasure hunting comunity will beat a path to your doorway.

Take care,

Joe

 

[FEMF]

...... To answer your question the book is called "De Re Metalli ca".

And another I believe is called "The Rocks Begin to Speak". ....

Bob

Hi Bob and thanks for the leads.

After some online searching, I found both texts on Amazon, but neither was what I was looking for: an explanation of what rules the Spanish Royalty required (if it even exists) to document gold discoveries and depositories in the New World, the symbols and trail markers used, and their interpretations. Some folks indicate that there was a "King's Code" that explained these things. I have seen several books on "signs and symbols" and those authors claim to know how to interpret them, but provide no reference for those interpretations. I think each of those authors created their own interpretations but do not explain how they came to these conclusions.... but it sure does sell a lot of books.

The index available online at Amazon for the book De Re Metallica lists only a single page to "map making" and I believe the author is referring to how the early European miners sketched out the lay of the mine and deposit they were digging. A single page does not seem enough discussion to explain the rules, symbols, and mapmaking to locate mines and deposits in the New World by the Spanish. Amazon also posted a sort of "Forward" that explains the purpose, focus, and main topics in this translation. See image below.




The other book, The Rocks Begin To Speak focuses on picture writing by Native Americans. According to purchasers of this book, the author makes the case that those pictographs are more than art. They also could indicate trails to water or a method to document history or a significant event in the lives of those early Native Americans. I have a few books about picture writing by Native Americans but not this one. I do plan to add this one to my collection. It sounds very interesting.

But, if there is any writing or book on the "King's Code", we'll have to continue the search. Dr. Lyon's comments to Cactusjumper may have been an attempt to protect and keep such information confidential that is available in Spanish Archives but not generally known. At least the current sign and symbol "experts" are not providing the supporting documents to strengthen their interpretations and conclusions.

Again, thanks, Bob, for the suggestions. Gotta crank up the Yamaha Grizzly and go plow the lane... got 5 inches of snow last two days.

Bill

Hello Bill
Search the University of Arizona Library for De Re Metallica, I found it there and down loaded it from there internet down load page.
FEMF

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

I must respectfully disagree with FMEF. You should, if possible, purchase a copy of "De Re Metallica".
Can't imagine how downloading from the Internet can stack up against holding that book in your hands. It's a great piece of history.

The contents are not practical for today, but it's a wonderful window into the past.

Take care,

Joe

 

[alaskabill]

Hello Bill
Search the University of Arizona Library for De Re Metallica, I found it there and down loaded it from there internet down load page.
FEMF

Hello FEMF and welcome,

I am still looking for the download site at UA but cannot find it. I checked the "index" on the home page and also did a search on the Dept of Mining and Geology Engineering webpage. No luck there either.

Do you remember more specifically where you found that download page?

Thanks for the lead. If it is a download pdf, I would like to add it to my must read files.

Bill

 

[Oroblanco]

I just wish to agree with Cactusjumper, it is always preferable to own the hardcopy - however if you are impatient or POOR (like some of us) luckily De Re Metallica is online in several places, like this site
http://www.farlang.com/gemstones/agricola-metallica/page_001
While this information may seem so far out of date as to be useless, the "primitive" prospecting and mining methods may prove useful for individuals or "Mom -n- Pop" operations without access to large financial backing.
Oroblanco

 

[alaskabill]

Bill,

You are not the first to search for any documentation for the "King's Code". I believe it does not exist, and never did. If you think about it, it is illogical to think it would be kept secret. I have never seen where Kenworthy published that he had found the codes.

If you find them, the treasure hunting comunity will beat a path to your doorway.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

First, about De Re Metallica. I think I'll buy a copy so I can have it available. You are right, I don't always have my computer available when I need to "read" something that doesn't require electricity to do that. But if it is available via download (legally) a back up copy on the computer would be nice.

About Kenworthy's claim that he had found or had access to the Spanish codes, it sticks in the back of my mind that he had made some comment to that effect. I'll get his books out and see if I can find a reference and let you know.

Bill

 

[alaskabill]

I just wish to agree with Cactusjumper, it is always preferable to own the hardcopy - however if you are impatient or POOR (like some of us) luckily De Re Metallica is online in several places, like this site
http://www.farlang.com/gemstones/agricola-metallica/page_001
While this information may seem so far out of date as to be useless, the "primitive" prospecting and mining methods may prove useful for individuals or "Mom -n- Pop" operations without access to large financial backing.
Oroblanco

Thanks, Oroblanco,

I have bookmarked that page and it is saved. I've been wanting to review this old text for some time and didn't know its title. I am sure I can learn from what worked in the past. I find it interesting to learn why certain methods were chosen and found to be successful.

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

Here is another site:

http://www.archive.org/details/georgiusagricola00agririch

Good hunting,

Joe

 

[alaskabill]

Bill,

Here is another site:

http://www.archive.org/details/georgiusagricola00agririch

Good hunting,

Joe

That worked! Thanks, Joe. Pretty large file, but I got it all. That should keep me in enought reading material to last the cold, Arctic winter.... maybe a couple.

Bill

 

[FEMF]

Bill,

Here is another site:

http://www.archive.org/details/georgiusagricola00agririch

Good hunting,

Joe

That worked! Thanks, Joe. Pretty large file, but I got it all. That should keep me in enought reading material to last the cold, Arctic winter.... maybe a couple.

Bill

Hello Bill
Sorry about that, I left work early yesterday, I found that link thru a link Oro posted in another forum, Books of the southwest at the University of Arizona Library, Rudo Ensayo: A Deseription of Sonora and Arizona, 1764. A very good read.
FEMF