Cave of gold bars

[Tom_in_CA]

..... I'd suggest folks take off the blinders and seriously examine why they believe what they believe. .....

Good post Sdcfia. The answer to your question of why so many md'rs chase these stories, is wrapped up in human nature/psychology: It's the fact that no one wants to be "left out". So you believe the treasure stories & disregard (promptly forget) the counter evidence (ie.: the more plausible explanations).

And BTW, this same psychology is also why the stories grow so fast, and get blown out of proportion, in the first place ! Every time it gets embellished and added to, then the NEXT person telling the story is speaking always in first-hand iron-clad true terms. Because, likewise, they too could never disbelieve a treasure story.

You remember all the "Lost mine" and "stolen stagecoach loot" stories in the 1960s and 1970s treasure magazines ? Eg.: "The dying miner drags himself into the wild-west saloon. The lone survivor of an indian attack. As curious onlookers gather around him, he spills the story of wild riches back at him mine. Before dying, he gives these 4 clues about the location" Blah blah blah. After awhile, all the stories started to sound the same, eh ?

In fact, a buddy of mine even submitted one of those stories to the magazine (to get the $50 article acceptance pay). It was totally made up fancy. But hey, throw in a few faded newspaper clippings, add a few true names and dates, put in a drawing of a miner posed next to his burro , and ........ PRESTO : It MUST be true, eh ? We got a kick out of that, wondering if anyone ever went looking for it.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

mike....there was a treasure recovered on peralta road a number of years back...supposedly by bob ward.......

Not only am I skeptical of most all the treasure lore yarns, I'm also skeptical of the people have said they've "found" , or "know of a treasure that was found...". At least when the claims originate from the type that chase them. Yes I'm sure they're quite sincere, but they usually break down upon closer examination.

Here's an example of what I mean: There has frequently been someone new showing up on md'ing forum, with post titles to the effect of "found a treasure!". And when you open the thread, it's someone who's found a treasure. And now they just need info. on how to fulfill govt. regulations. Or tax laws. Or "where can I send 50 lbs. of gold for smelt ?" etc.....

After reading a few such stories, I decided to investigate the next ones that came along. And skipping their ancillary questions, I drew them back to the "treasure" that they "found". Asking for more details about that part of the story (as opposed to their questions of what machine can detect 6 meters deep, blah blah blah). And ALWAYS, the following truth comes forward: They didn't actually find the treasure yet. But they have the location honed down to a single meadow. Or a single cave. Or a single valley, etc... And now it's merely a matter of pinpointing the exact location, or a detector that goes 6 meters deep, or govt. regulations, blah blah blah. Or they're asking on behalf of their friend who "found" it .

So I try to point out to the person that DESPITE their post title of past tense *found*, they have NOT *found* ANYTHING yet. But they don't see it this way.

In their mind's eyes, they have already past tense "found" it. Or if they're asking on behalf of their friend who "found" it, then .... curiously ....... they will eventually admit they haven't seen it with their own eyes yet. However, they still continue to speak in first person terms, iron-clad certainty, etc.... I suspect if they quizzed their friend, they'd find that THAT PERSON TOO has merely gotten this "on good authority" from another friend. And so on, and so forth, back to permanent regression. And in each step of this telephone game, it gets told and retold with 1st person singular terms. No one questions it.

Ahhh, such is human nature. It is especially prevalent in certain cultures and countries for some reason.

 

[Cubfan64]

Not only am I skeptical of most all the treasure lore yarns, I'm also skeptical of the people have said they've "found" , or "know of a treasure that was found...". At least when the claims originate from the type that chase them. Yes I'm sure they're quite sincere, but they usually break down upon closer examination.

Here's an example of what I mean: There has frequently been someone new showing up on md'ing forum, with post titles to the effect of "found a treasure!". And when you open the thread, it's someone who's found a treasure. And now they just need info. on how to fulfill govt. regulations. Or tax laws. Or "where can I send 50 lbs. of gold for smelt ?" etc.....

After reading a few such stories, I decided to investigate the next ones that came along. And skipping their ancillary questions, I drew them back to the "treasure" that they "found". Asking for more details about that part of the story (as opposed to their questions of what machine can detect 6 meters deep, blah blah blah). And ALWAYS, the following truth comes forward: They didn't actually find the treasure yet. But they have the location honed down to a single meadow. Or a single cave. Or a single valley, etc... And now it's merely a matter of pinpointing the exact location, or a detector that goes 6 meters deep, or govt. regulations, blah blah blah. Or they're asking on behalf of their friend who "found" it .

So I try to point out to the person that DESPITE their post title of past tense *found*, they have NOT *found* ANYTHING yet. But they don't see it this way.

In their mind's eyes, they have already past tense "found" it. Or if they're asking on behalf of their friend who "found" it, then .... curiously ....... they will eventually admit they haven't seen it with their own eyes yet. However, they still continue to speak in first person terms, iron-clad certainty, etc.... I suspect if they quizzed their friend, they'd find that THAT PERSON TOO has merely gotten this "on good authority" from another friend. And so on, and so forth, back to permanent regression. And in each step of this telephone game, it gets told and retold with 1st person singular terms. No one questions it.

Ahhh, such is human nature. It is especially prevalent in certain cultures and countries for some reason.

Sounds like every person who is thoroughly convinced they "found" what the Peralta Stone Maps directed them to

 

[gollum]

Not only am I skeptical of most all the treasure lore yarns, I'm also skeptical of the people have said they've "found" , or "know of a treasure that was found...". At least when the claims originate from the type that chase them. Yes I'm sure they're quite sincere, but they usually break down upon closer examination.

Here's an example of what I mean: There has frequently been someone new showing up on md'ing forum, with post titles to the effect of "found a treasure!". And when you open the thread, it's someone who's found a treasure. And now they just need info. on how to fulfill govt. regulations. Or tax laws. Or "where can I send 50 lbs. of gold for smelt ?" etc.....

After reading a few such stories, I decided to investigate the next ones that came along. And skipping their ancillary questions, I drew them back to the "treasure" that they "found". Asking for more details about that part of the story (as opposed to their questions of what machine can detect 6 meters deep, blah blah blah). And ALWAYS, the following truth comes forward: They didn't actually find the treasure yet. But they have the location honed down to a single meadow. Or a single cave. Or a single valley, etc... And now it's merely a matter of pinpointing the exact location, or a detector that goes 6 meters deep, or govt. regulations, blah blah blah. Or they're asking on behalf of their friend who "found" it .

So I try to point out to the person that DESPITE their post title of past tense *found*, they have NOT *found* ANYTHING yet. But they don't see it this way.

In their mind's eyes, they have already past tense "found" it. Or if they're asking on behalf of their friend who "found" it, then .... curiously ....... they will eventually admit they haven't seen it with their own eyes yet. However, they still continue to speak in first person terms, iron-clad certainty, etc.... I suspect if they quizzed their friend, they'd find that THAT PERSON TOO has merely gotten this "on good authority" from another friend. And so on, and so forth, back to permanent regression. And in each step of this telephone game, it gets told and retold with 1st person singular terms. No one questions it.

Ahhh, such is human nature. It is especially prevalent in certain cultures and countries for some reason.

Tom,

It is my firm belief that the best anyone on an Internet forum WILL EVER get is second hand. I will tell you that I just flat out don't believe anyone smart enough to decrypt a treasure map or authentic treasure symbols would also be stupid enough to post what they found online. Not only would there likely be legal issues, there is no statute of limitations for the IRS to come after you for unpaid taxes on that treasure.

The two I know that have gone public are(were)so old, they didn't care any more. Ron Quinn inTucson who (along with his brother and two friends) found the 82 pounds of gold bars, and Tony Jolley, who helped Doc Noss rebury 110 of the approximately 300 gold bars the night before he was murdered by Charlie Ryan. Jolley found ten of the 110 bars he helped rebury. Willie Daughitt did tell his story on video, but since he says there are still between 1200-1500 forty pound bars in his cave (and probably five to six skeletons of people killed to keep his cave a secret) he would never give up the exact location. None of the finders of the others I know of would never give details or do any interviews "for the record".

Mike

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Tom,

It is my firm belief that the best anyone on an Internet forum WILL EVER get is second hand. I will tell you that I just flat out don't believe anyone smart enough to decrypt a treasure map or authentic treasure symbols would also be stupid enough to post what they found online. Not only would there likely be legal issues, there is no statute of limitations for the IRS to come after you for unpaid taxes on that treasure.

The two I know that have gone public are(were)so old, they didn't care any more. Ron Quinn inTucson who (along with his brother and two friends) found the 82 pounds of gold bars, and Tony Jolley, who helped Doc Noss rebury 110 of the approximately 300 gold bars the night before he was murdered by Charlie Ryan. Jolley found ten of the 110 bars he helped rebury. Willie Daughitt did tell his story on video, but since he says there are still between 1200-1500 forty pound bars in his cave (and probably five to six skeletons of people killed to keep his cave a secret) he would never give up the exact location. None of the finders of the others I know of would never give details or do any interviews "for the record".

Mike

Mike, Your answer is quite the same as the type answer offered up by the users of ... uh ...an "un-conventional" TH'ing method: When a skeptic goes ask them: "Where is the proof of goodies found with this unconventional method ?" And the answer you're giving here , is exactly like theirs:

"We find the big ticket treasures all the time. However, we can't post any show & tells. Because we fear the IRS, thieves, claim-jumpers, etc.... " hmmmmm.

To which I counter by telling them that md'r's have ROUTINELY posted their show & tell ALL THE TIME. Yes, even nice and valuable ones. A quick look at any md'ing finds forum, and you will see no shortage of md'ing proudly showing off their holes-in-one trophies. Heck, even some occasional caches found with detectors. Hence why not the practitioners of this ... uh... un-conventional method ?

To which they will say that any show & tell seen (even caches) on md'ing forums pale in comparison to the big-ticket items they are finding. But ...... rest assured, we find them. We just can't show you. Aarrgh. Do you see the impenetrable web of protection ?

Anyways Mike, in the scenario I spelled out for you, you will see they are cases where the person who's posted they "found" (past tense) a treasure, has NOT "found" a treasure. When the details finally come forward under pressure, it will be a case where they are on-the-verge. Honed down to a certain swamp bottom (now they just need dredge equipment). Or a certain meadow (now they just need a detector which goes 6 meters deep), etc.... Don't you see that they haven't "found" anything yet ? DESPITE that they are quite sincere, and always phrase it in the past-tense "found". I can cite links to posts of this psychology if you like.

Same for when someone talks of a treasure they know that was "found". Upon closer scrutiny, you often see that they are going off of statements they've heard around the campfire. They've never actually seen the treasure. And I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the person telling them the story has likewise not seen any treasure. Yet when the story gets passed through the chain, it's never something like "It is claimed that such & such". Or "supposedly such & such". But instead it is practically 1st person singular present tense "found". As if it's beyond question.

For example: The "82 pounds" and the "1500 gold bars" you allude to: I'll step out on a ledge here and venture a guess that you haven't actually seen any of these. Right ? NOT SAYING THAT MAKES IT *NECESSARILY* FALSE. But .... don't you see you can just be a link in the telephone game ? Have you done the math on the value of that much gold ??

Or, let's put it this way: If I told you: "Hey Mike, I found 300 gold bars". And ... despite the fact that you read it here on T'net (or out of a supermarket tabloid), does that make it necessarily true ? No. And ironically, the persons telling these stories (like yourself in this case) are not necessarily lying. You are being quite sincere in passing along the "1500 gold bar story". And so too will the guy who reads your post, likewise pass on the story in the first-person present tense un-questioned-fact affirmative. Till finally, 20 yrs. from now, someone puts their foot down and says "says who ?" "Where's the proof?". And alas, the dodge moves (like yours here) come forward: "no proof needed. Too bad". Hmmmm

 

[Tom_in_CA]

and to the mod's (and Mike): I do not mean that post as an insult or attack. This is strictly an intellectual pro & con discussion of the psychology that surrounds "treasure". Ie.: whether or not people tend to put skepticism aside when the subject is "treasure". And whether or not other more plausible explanations can exist, etc....

So any "challenge" given in that post, is not to be construed as an insult. It's to elicit each other to scrutinize our own claims.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

post-script: A little google sleuthing on your first story, shows that a book was written (presumably with documenting proof). Ok. As for the 2nd story (Doc Ness, etc...) I only see a bunch of TH'r posts where this story is simply bandied back and forth.

So ... let me be clear: No doubt someone can point to a fabulous treasure that was indeed found. And heck, perhaps even by virtue of cryptrograms, un-canny marks on rocks, un-conventional means, etc... But to jump from this, to therefore put necessary stock in all other camp-fire stories ? Does it make all the rest true ? No.

 

[azdave35]

post-script: A little google sleuthing on your first story, shows that a book was written (presumably with documenting proof). Ok. As for the 2nd story (Doc Ness, etc...) I only see a bunch of TH'r posts where this story is simply bandied back and forth.

So ... let me be clear: No doubt someone can point to a fabulous treasure that was indeed found. And heck, perhaps even by virtue of cryptrograms, un-canny marks on rocks, un-conventional means, etc... But to jump from this, to therefore put necessary stock in all other camp-fire stories ? Does it make all the rest true ? No.

i would say the doc noss story is pretty bonified...the govt must have thought so to because they took noss's claim and turned it into a missile range

 

[Tom_in_CA]

i would say the doc noss story is pretty bonified...the govt must have thought so to because they took noss's claim and turned it into a missile range

Hmmm , so let me guess: That the govt. "turned it in to a missile range" is proof (a conspiracy cover-up ?) of the validity/truth of the treasure. Right ?

 

[azdave35]

Hmmm , so let me guess: That the govt. "turned it in to a missile range" is proof (a conspiracy cover-up ?) of the validity/truth of the treasure. Right ?

i got a new name for you..doubting thomas

 

[sdcfia]

Hmmm , so let me guess: That the govt. "turned it in to a missile range" is proof (a conspiracy cover-up ?) of the validity/truth of the treasure. Right ?

Absolutely! Same reason they created all those National Parks, Wilderness Areas, Cultural Monuments, public reservoirs, etc - to put all that loot off limits.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Absolutely! Same reason they created all those National Parks, Wilderness Areas, Cultural Monuments, public reservoirs, etc - to put all that loot off limits.

Ok. Thanx for setting me straight.

Kind of reminds me of the news story of the 2 guys who thought they were hot-on-the-trail of a buried treasure. That they'd determined was inside the grave of a civil war soldier. The grave plot was in a federal park, uppity-up monument memorial historical park. Now it was merely a matter of getting the government's approval to dig up the grave & recover the treasure.

Naturally, the government said "no". And the 2 TH'rs were on record (video tape which I think you can find on youtube) as saying that the government's denial of permission, was ALL THE MORE PROOF that the treasure is most certainly there. Ie.: a conspiracy hush job to hide the truth from the public.

As I watched that video, about a treasure in a CW grave, I thought ..... "Wait a minute, isn't this the plot of the Clint Eastwood Spaghetti western 'The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly' ?" Doh!

Conspiracy theories are much too fun ! In fact, I'll bet I'm nothing but a government shill myself. Sent here to dissuade people from finding the treasures that we are trying to keep hidden. Muhahaha. [ Pay no attention to the Lizard people & black helicopters you see behind me.]

 

[sdcfia]

Ok. Thanx for setting me straight.

Kind of reminds me of the news story of the 2 guys who thought they were hot-on-the-trail of a buried treasure. That they'd determined was inside the grave of a civil war soldier. The grave plot was in a federal park, uppity-up monument memorial historical park. Now it was merely a matter of getting the government's approval to dig up the grave & recover the treasure.

Naturally, the government said "no". And the 2 TH'rs were on record (video tape which I think you can find on youtube) as saying that the government's denial of permission, was ALL THE MORE PROOF that the treasure is most certainly there. Ie.: a conspiracy hush job to hide the truth from the public.

As I watched that video, about a treasure in a CW grave, I thought ..... "Wait a minute, isn't this the plot of the Clint Eastwood Spaghetti western 'The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly' ?" Doh!

Conspiracy theories are much too fun ! In fact, I'll bet I'm nothing but a government shill myself. Sent here to dissuade people from finding the treasures that we are trying to keep hidden. Muhahaha. [ Pay no attention to the Lizard people & black helicopters you see behind me.]

Now that you mentioned it, what better place to bury loot than in a grave? Well, maybe under the pile of dirt removed from an empty hole.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Now that you mentioned it, what better place to bury loot than in a grave?....

Right. Which is exactly why every single grave you see "contains a treasure". Who can argue with this common sense ? Hence the minute anyone conjectures that a treasure is hidden in a grave, the "red herring" of how-good the hiding place is, is put out there. And the whole story therefore becomes beyond question. Amazing.

 

[gollum]

Tom,

Most lost mine and hidden treasure stories were more than likely made up by attention seekers, treasure magazine/book authors (Desert Magazine: The Man Who Found Peglegs Gold), prospectors needing a grubstake, etc.

Most authentic treasure stories stay secreted in private libraries and collections. Occasionally, they get in the news and become public. The best example was Willie Daughitt and his cave of gold bars. After he and Buster sold a twenty pound chunk (one of the forty pound bars sawed in half), they went on a bender, and thought it a good idea to hop a freight back to Hot Springs (now Truth or Consequences). Willie got on, but Buster slipped off, and the train took both his legs below the knees. At the hospital, the doctors found Busters half of the money stuffed in his shirt and called the cops. When the police were interviewing Willie, they saw his half. Willie screwed up and told them the truth about the treasure cave. It made the papers, and Willie was kidnapped twice and tortured to find the location of the cave. Willie and Doc Noss knew each other. Doc helped Willie escape, and in gratitude, Willie let Doc take a long look at the map. This happened in 1928, and is how Doc actually found Victorio Peak.

The only way to really get authentic treasure stories is to put in the time and boot leather. If The few people out there who have real information trust that you aren't a rat or bs artist, they sometimes open up. A great analogy regarding skepticism is from Sims Elys book on the Lost Dutchman. An NDeh (Apache) was going to show him where a mine was, a guy that was with him made the statement "There's no mine out there." The NDeh said, "You're right. We should go back now." He wouldn't move another foot towards the mine, and wouldn't answer another question about it. It's why I always say to forget what was written, and what someone said. Look at what they do. If Noss had been a fraud, why did he fight the government for the right to get back into Victorio Peak until he was murdered in 1949? Why did his wife Ova (who saw the bars) fight to get back into Victorio Peak until her death in 1979? Not the actions of fraudsters.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

I guess I would qualify as one of those heard from a trusted source people.

In the case of Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars, I knew a number of the people who helped him in his search to re-find his cave. One of them was my Uncle, Chuck Ribaudo. All of the searchers, that I have talked to, held the gold bar with the crown marked on it in their hands. I have no (zero) doubt that the gold bar was the real thing. I can't say the same thing for Harry's story of how and where he found it, but believe it to be a true story.

I believe everyone would have lied to me, except Chuck. That alone gives some weight to the others accounts. That would include Ernie Provence and Tracy Hawkins who both told me the story a number of times before they passed away. I think the story was first published by Bob Ward, which would not give me confidence in it's truthfulness, but he was told the story by Tracy Hawkins. Both Ernie and Tracy were my uncle's partners, all involved in many prospecting hunts as well as the LDM Store. Believe Chuck was a primary investor for the store. They split up over that deal, and never talked to each other again.


Picture courtesy of Tom Kollenborn. Thanks Tom!

I have always believed that Ted DeGrazia was involved, in some way, with the Stone Maps. I have one of Ted's books inscribed to "The LaFrance's".



If any of those stone maps has the hint of reality in it, I believe Harry's cave of gold bars is the main treasure it points to. That location is marked by the large black hole in this map with the small black dot over it:



Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

What would the 2 big X's mean ?
A stash

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Most lost mine and hidden treasure stories were more than likely made up by attention seekers, treasure magazine/book authors (Desert Magazine: The Man Who Found Peglegs Gold), prospectors needing a grubstake, etc. .....

gollum, on the one hand , yes, you admit most are wive's tales. Embellished (telephone game) or even simply entirely made up. But then .... in order to distance yourselves from those silly ones: You have various clues. For the ones you do believe in, that are given as examples of how your particular one is the exception to the rule.

But what I don't understand is: How do you & cactus-jumper know that the various juicy clues you're citing (to distance yourselves from the ghost story ones), AREN'T SIMPLY the "clues" of those that are merely stories ? After all: They can be based in actual events, names, dates, etc.... too, right ? And even if you put in time and boot-leather to find more "juicy clues", then they too, likewise, might simply be more of the "he-said-she-said" clues game.

And mind you: All the sources you would read, would (as I spelled out in previous post) be in first-person 100% affirmative tense. Ie.: seemingly "source info". That is therefore "beyond silly". Or that guide or witness that you guys might have as your proof, they too might simply be a part of the daisy-chain of dreamers, eh ?

For example: This is the psychology of those in the Philippines who think they've got figured out where Yamashita treasure is. When you point out to them that 100 maps are circulating, they will dismiss the other 99. And assert that their single one is the real mcCoy. And ... yup ... they'll have compelling proof of lineage, of how they have it on good authority that the person who passed it down to them, was the son or grandson of the soldier who witnessed it, blah blah blah. And they fail to realize, that ... SO TOO do all the other 100 maps of "sure-fired location" also have stellar lineage . Naturally, when/if you start to scrutinize the stories (that they simply got from whomever the map came from), they each fall apart.

So too could the treasure lores that you speak of here be of the same vein. eh ?

 

[somehiker]

What would the 2 big X's mean ?
A stash

Two X's at equal distances from the hole.
The small hole is the only one visible at that location though.
Cause you gotta go in and down through the little one to get to the big one.....

 

[cactusjumper]

What would the 2 big X's mean ?
A stash

H-2,

The first X to the right of the trail, is an empty cave. The second is a sealed mine on the ridge above Willow Spring and a little to the south. Wayne is correct that the small dot is the entrance to a much larger cave, exactly as Harry LaFrance described it. If you think the DeGrazia inscription to the LaFrance's is a coincidence.......look for that surname in Arizona. You will find one reference and it's in Tucson......DeGrazia's home town. As I recall, it's in a 1930s census. Believe it's for a Harry LaFrance, a traveling dry goods salesman staying in a hotel.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo