COA business

[Sunny Side]

I hope someone out there that knows what the hell they are doing can step up to the plate and be an honest evaluator someday. There are so many Charlatans and so many people that “ think they know” what the heck they are doing. We are loosing so many old time collectors, the gentleman collectors in this hobby. I had a friend ask my opinion on a piece tonight that was 8 balled by a very popular authenticator. He forgot that I once owned it!! I know where it was found when it was found and I know for a fact it is real. People make mistakes but WOW!!

 

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[Sunny Side]

I think he just decided to keep his hands clean from the mess. Aside from Berner and Stermer, I don't know any COA issuer that hasn't had an old COA come back on a piece that they probably shouldn't have papered the first time around. It goes back to the issue that when people buy large collections, they occasionally get a couple of fakes in there. And back in the day (pre internet) it was just easier to dump them at a small show or on unsuspecting collector who trusted them.

Slate I used to be really confident about, but now a days it's just easier to buy something that was in the Meuser collection and is published or buy something that is pictured in Ohio Slate types.

I agree that purchasing old published pieces is safer and can be a better investment. If we jump into some other larger famous collections and the auctions that dispersed them in the 70s and early 80s we see in the catalogs wonderful pieces that are great published investment choices if you can get your hands on them. On the other hand, many don’t know that the killer pieces were all snatched up before those auctions occurred. Many of these Top shelf pieces have never been published and hold less value than a lesser published piece. Oh the irony.

 

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[tomclark]

There are some pretty cheap digital microscopes on ebay... I'm looking at reviews.... the cheapest are garbage but there's a Celestron 200X for 25 bucks..... anyone use one of these digital microscopes??

 

[joshuaream]

For around $25 they are neat and better than nothing. They don't typically last too long, but the real issue is that you don't get the same stereo dimensional view. Things look flat. There are probably some reviews on YouTube if someone wants to see what you get. On mine it moves a lot with my heartbeat if I'm holding it, but you can get some pictures of cool stuff if you don't touch it and can position it just right with the relic. About the only thing I consistently used it for was looking at drilling marks. I bought it for usewear, but it just wasn't detailed enough for that.

The other issue is that a lot of us look at things between 10x up to 80x or so, those ones that go to 1500x and beyond aren't great at the lower magnification mode.

There are some pretty cheap digital microscopes on ebay... I'm looking at reviews.... the cheapest are garbage but there's a Celestron 200X for 25 bucks..... anyone use one of these digital microscopes??

 

[georgia flatlander]

I may be in the minority, but I only collect what I personally find. I understand that not everyone has a good place to hunt, and I'm blessed with some great areas, but to me the hunt is the key. The hours upon hours spent digging, walking and searching can never be replaced by handing over a few (or in some cases, a lot of) dollars for something someone else has found. To me, it's like deer hunting: I don't want someone else's mount on my wall.
I don't have any issues with anyone buying for a collection or as a collector, but it does bring problems of provenance and authenticity. I can only imagine the disappointment when someone finds out that their prized artifact is actually an artifake. From personal experience I have run into at least one authenticator who seemed to be willing to paper just about anything for money. On the other hand, he was also hesitant to authenticate some things that were obvious. I think that just as in every profession you'll find both good and bad.
For now, my authenticator is the "clink" sound of a digging tool striking rock.

 

[RustyRelics]

I may be in the minority, but I only collect what I personally find. I understand that not everyone has a good place to hunt, and I'm blessed with some great areas, but to me the hunt is the key. The hours upon hours spent digging, walking and searching can never be replaced by handing over a few (or in some cases, a lot of) dollars for something someone else has found. To me, it's like deer hunting: I don't want someone else's mount on my wall.
I don't have any issues with anyone buying for a collection or as a collector, but it does bring problems of provenance and authenticity. I can only imagine the disappointment when someone finds out that their prized artifact is actually an artifake. From personal experience I have run into at least one authenticator who seemed to be willing to paper just about anything for money. On the other hand, he was also hesitant to authenticate some things that were obvious. I think that just as in every profession you'll find both good and bad.
For now, my authenticator is the "clink" sound of a digging tool striking rock.

I'm blessed with good hunt areas as well, I'm cursed by being 17, and not having a permit, or willing parents to let me go looking.

 

[uniface]

Here's a start: https://www.usu.edu/geo/luminlab/whatis.html

As concerns chert artifacts, specifically :

Insight Laser Artifact Evaluation

http://wbreckinridge.com/LaserIntro.html

 

[Relicgrubber]

LOL. Might as well get a Baker COA while they are at it.

 

[joshuaream]

As concerns chert artifacts, specifically :

Insight Laser Artifact Evaluation

http://wbreckinridge.com/LaserIntro.html

Uni, you are piggybacking the "Magic Laser" on an actual scientifically tested and accepted method (OSL.) They are two very different things. I try not to argue too much, but it's worth mentioning that including you, all of the believers in this "Magic Laser" technology could fit in a relatively small room and include only one or two actual scientists, one Archaeologist, the people who paid Wally for their tool kit, and a couple of collectors. (Apparently some of the original supporters have moved on as well.)

You can believe what you want to believe, I'm just not a fan of promoting these services as the magic cure for authenticity/aging relics. It's something that really belongs in the section of the forum were people dig up old bottles and discuss those whacky old tonic cures that come in cool little bottles.

 

[uniface]

Uni, you are piggybacking the "Magic Laser" on an actual scientifically tested and accepted method (OSL.) They are two very different things. I try not to argue too much, but it's worth mentioning that including you, all of the believers in this "Magic Laser" technology could fit in a relatively small room and include only one or two actual scientists, one Archaeologist, the people who paid Wally for their tool kit, and a couple of collectors. (Apparently some of the original supporters have moved on as well.)

You can believe what you want to believe, I'm just not a fan of promoting these services as the magic cure for authenticity/aging relics. It's something that really belongs in the section of the forum were people dig up old bottles and discuss those whacky old tonic cures that come in cool little bottles.

I am 100% convinced that you are sure you understand this.

I am 0 % convinced that you actually do.

 

[uniface]

Cut to the chase here -- Eliminate the middle man entirely.

The next time you run into Dr. Gramly at a convention, confront him on this and tell him he has no idea what he's talking about.

Be sure to have somebody with a video camera recording his response and post it.

 

[arrow86]

I may be in the minority, but I only collect what I personally find. I understand that not everyone has a good place to hunt, and I'm blessed with some great areas, but to me the hunt is the key. The hours upon hours spent digging, walking and searching can never be replaced by handing over a few (or in some cases, a lot of) dollars for something someone else has found. To me, it's like deer hunting: I don't want someone else's mount on my wall.
I don't have any issues with anyone buying for a collection or as a collector, but it does bring problems of provenance and authenticity. I can only imagine the disappointment when someone finds out that their prized artifact is actually an artifake. From personal experience I have run into at least one authenticator who seemed to be willing to paper just about anything for money. On the other hand, he was also hesitant to authenticate some things that were obvious. I think that just as in every profession you'll find both good and bad.
For now, my authenticator is the "clink" sound of a digging tool striking rock.

I couldn’t agree more , that thrill of finding a point is what got me hooked years ago, purchasing could never bring the same joy and appreciation of a relic that you get finding it and while I love looking at all the pictures of the finds posted here iv never thought hmmm bet I could buy that if I offer enough. Surely this point of view will limit my collection but I also found a intact banner stone this past year so you never know what you may find and the adventure is where I find my solace and clear my head from all my stressors.

 

[Kantuckkeean]

I couldn’t agree more , that thrill of finding a point is what got me hooked years ago, purchasing could never bring the same joy and appreciation of a relic that you get finding it and while I love looking at all the pictures of the finds posted here iv never thought hmmm bet I could buy that if I offer enough. Surely this point of view will limit my collection but I also found a intact banner stone this past year so you never know what you may find and the adventure is where I find my solace and clear my head from all my stressors.

Well said... there’s nothing like being the first to pick up a tool that hasn’t been handled in thousands of years. However, I can also understand why people purchase artifacts. The buyers and traders have some awesome stuff that we’ll most likely never find. I’d love to own a banded slate winged bannerstone and a discoidal. I doubt that I’ll find them but you never know... I don’t intend to stop looking.

Kindest regards,
Kantuck

 

[joshuaream]

The next time you run into Dr. Gramly at a convention, confront him on this and tell him he has no idea what he's talking about.

I like Gramly. I wouldn't say we are in regular contact, but we've met a couple of times, exchanged bunches of emails over many years and I have sent him lots of pieces of El Jobo material, fluted point material from the same material, shared a lot of info about the Jobo and other series from Venezuela. I've told him I'm not convinced about the Jobo/Cumberland idea, and he doesn't really choose to look at the Thick Bodied theory that Kunz and Baker put out there because it doesn't focus on Cumberland.

I'm not really into confronting people's beliefs, but when the laser is brought up as a solution to COA's, I usually chime in.

 

[Sunny Side]

I hunted for many years in the Ohio, KY area and really enjoyed it. The field went away and most of the stuff you find in the later years wasn’t very good. Can’t imagine all the wear and tear I put on my vehicle over the years for those pointy rocks. It was fun, but buying can be too. I enjoy both.

 

[OntarioArch]

"that thrill of finding a point is what got me hooked years ago, purchasing could never bring the same joy and appreciation of a relic that you get finding it"

I agree.

However, the awe-inspiring, ancient works of art presently located in oak & glass display cases on my living room bookshelves for all to admire.....used to be hidden away in cigar boxes, tupperware containers, and worse. I rescued them from neglectful Old Timers or their descendants.

What would have been their fate? Dumpsters?

 

[joshuaream]

The only thing better than my personal find, are the few my two kids were patient enough to find when they were young. That said, I do appreciate a nice purchase of an interesting piece.

 

[Sunny Side]

"that thrill of finding a point is what got me hooked years ago, purchasing could never bring the same joy and appreciation of a relic that you get finding it"

I agree.

However, the awe-inspiring, ancient works of art presently located in oak & glass display cases on my living room bookshelves for all to admire.....used to be hidden away in cigar boxes, tupperware containers, and worse. I rescued them from neglectful Old Timers or their descendants.

What would have been their fate? Dumpsters?

We also have to remember that many collectors, myself included, appreciate the artistry and imagination of some of their works. Its like buying a painting you enjoy, no different. So there are two separate worlds in this hobby. Clem Caldwell “old redskin article” never hunted the fields because he thought it was a waste of time, he had others do it for him.

 

[RustyRelics]

Plus not everybody has, say, a Cumberland point in Texas, or Folsum points in New York.... but you can buy one from a state that does.

 

[smokeythecat]

I have a dino-lite digital microscope that works quite well. They aren't too expensive. As for a COA, they make great toilet paper.

 

[Fred250]

Something tells me that most all of us that frequent here would buy pieces if we had the disposable income.