coconut coir: a history

[swiftfan]

Quick question: wasn't there A
portuguese explorer in search of his lost brother in and around New England way before Columbus or the English?

 

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[lokiblossom]

Quick question: wasn't there A
portuguese explorer in search of his lost brother in and around New England way before Columbus or the English?

Not that I know of, but if so I would like to read about it.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Charlie P. (NY)]

"Are you suggesting coconuts migrate?" Lol

African or European?

 

[gazzahk]

Its impossible for them to be from the Caribbean and be dated from before the 15th century.

So this museum is lying about its display?

 

[Pippin]

Loki an honest answer is always the best one. It's something that's worth a discussion.

 

[Pippin]

Gazzahk probably not lying but just misinformed. Maybe they haven't read the history of coconuts.

 

[swiftfan]

Not that I know of, but if so I would like to read about it.

Cheers, Loki

Gasbar and Miguel Corte Real were the brothers names. Both disappeared in around 1501-1502. In 1918, a 40 ton stone was found bearing the Portuguese coat of arms, and capt real's name along with a date of 1511. Mystery of Dighton rock.

 

[gazzahk]

Gazzahk probably not lying but just misinformed. Maybe they haven't read the history of coconuts.

Ha ha... I would think that if there is dating of coconut fibers before coconuts come to the Caribbean and (assuming the museum guys are not complete incompetents) then this would support the fibers are from multiple sources. ie used and re-used in packing and are from a variety of different locations.

It may also be the dating reports of the fibers are wrong.

 

[Raparee]

African or European?

lol. You beat me to it.

 

[Raparee]

Exactly, so which Pre-Columbian's brought it to Nova Scotia from the Eastern Mediterranean?

Phoenicians? Egyptians? Romans? Why not? There's as much evidence for them being here as there is for Templars.

 

[lokiblossom]

Gasbar and Miguel Corte Real were the brothers names. Both disappeared in around 1501-1502. In 1918, a 40 ton stone was found bearing the Portuguese coat of arms, and capt real's name along with a date of 1511. Mystery of Dighton rock.

then not pre-columbian, correct?
Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Phoenicians? Egyptians? Romans? Why not? There's as much evidence for them being here as there is for Templars.

Not at all, The Templars had bases in the Eastern Med, and on the French Atlantic. They left the Eastern Med. at the right time period (per the coconut fibres 13th century dating)and a few months later in the same ships left the French Atlantic Port of La Rochelle(which was basically their own since 1139) and were never seen again. Also they had a good reason to leave as they were all wanted men.

Is there such a story for the Phoenicians, Egyptians, or Romans?
Cheers, Loki

 

[lokiblossom]

Ha ha... I would think that if there is dating of coconut fibers before coconuts come to the Caribbean and (assuming the museum guys are not complete incompetents) then this would support the fibers are from multiple sources. ie used and re-used in packing and are from a variety of different locations.

It may also be the dating reports of the fibers are wrong.

I and others have discussed this with the museum guys and no they are not incompetents, they are open to several conjectures.

And still the only place they could have come from because of the dating is the Arab areas in the Eastern Med. Coconut Fibre for packing was not used in Europe until much later (18th century).

As for the dating being wrong, that is simply wishful thinking from the detractors. Did you read the reports I linked to?
Cheers, Loki

 

[Raparee]

Not at all, The Templars had bases in the Eastern Med, and on the French Atlantic. They left the Eastern Med. at the right time period (per the coconut fibres 13th century dating)and a few months later in the same ships left the French Atlantic Port of La Rochelle(which was basically their own since 1139) and were never seen again. Also they had a good reason to leave as they were all wanted men.

Is there such a story for the Phoenicians, Egyptians, or Romans?
Cheers, Loki

I'm sure I could come up with something if I let my imagination go. There are theories of the Phoenicians, Egyptians and Romans showing up in NS. It wouldn't take too much to develop my own premise based on nothing but speculation.

We have something that may or may not be coconut coir, that has been C-14 dated with no verification of the dating from other sources, and no context from which to draw further information. There are too many unknowns for this material to be used as a credible support for any pet theories.

 

[lokiblossom]

I'm sure I could come up with something if I let my imagination go. There are theories of the Phoenicians, Egyptians and Romans showing up in NS. It wouldn't take too much to develop my own premise based on nothing but speculation.

We have something that may or may not be coconut coir, that has been C-14 dated with no verification of the dating from other sources, and no context from which to draw further information. There are too many unknowns for this material to be used as a credible support for any pet theories.

The coconut fibre has been reliably identified by several sources and dated by the world famous Beta Analytic from a sample sent to them by Woods Hole Oceanographic. The sample came from the Oak Island museum and was labeled as to where it had been located on Oak Island.

I have some coconut fibre (coir) and it sure looks like what the photo from the museum shows.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Raparee]

The coconut fibre has been reliably identified by several sources and dated by the world famous Beta Analytic from a sample sent to them by Woods Hole Oceanographic. The sample came from the Oak Island museum and was labeled as to where it had been located on Oak Island.

I have some coconut fibre (coir) and it sure looks like what the photo from the museum shows.

Cheers, Loki

From the Woods Hole report, as found at The Oak Island Compendium:

Page ii, item ix
"Radiocarbon age dates of two "coconut" fibre samples were run. One sample from D. Blankenship (via Oak Island Discoveries); it was dated at 765 ybp [years before present]. The second sample was found at Smith's Cove by D. Henskee and D. Aubrey; it was dated at 1100 ybp. The provenance of the Smith's Cove sample is unclear.

Note the quotation marks around "coconut" were not my addition, but were in the original text. The following text from the report explains.

Page 40
"We sent SEM photo-micrographs and portions of the original fibre sample to two palm experts: Scott Zorn of the Fairchild Tropical Garden in Miami, FLA, and Professor (Emeritus) Natalie Uhl, of Cornell University.
"Dr. Zorn thought the fibres might be husk fibres of a coconut, but his comparison with modern fibres was inconclusive. Dr. Uhl has been of great assistance, but she is continuing her investigation. She concluded that the SEM photo-micrographs do resemble fibrous bundle sheaths in palm stems. However, without the full bundle, she could not be conclusive."

The report continues to state that Dr. Uhl is referring the work to an expert in Leopoldinia spp, a species that has been used for fibre in the past, and is native to the new world.

So, two samples of uncertain provenance were unable to be positively identified by two separate experts.

 

[lokiblossom]

From the Woods Hole report, as found at The Oak Island Compendium:

Page ii, item ix
"Radiocarbon age dates of two "coconut" fibre samples were run. One sample from D. Blankenship (via Oak Island Discoveries); it was dated at 765 ybp [years before present]. The second sample was found at Smith's Cove by D. Henskee and D. Aubrey; it was dated at 1100 ybp. The provenance of the Smith's Cove sample is unclear.

Note the quotation marks around "coconut" were not my addition, but were in the original text. The following text from the report explains.

Page 40
"We sent SEM photo-micrographs and portions of the original fibre sample to two palm experts: Scott Zorn of the Fairchild Tropical Garden in Miami, FLA, and Professor (Emeritus) Natalie Uhl, of Cornell University.
"Dr. Zorn thought the fibres might be husk fibres of a coconut, but his comparison with modern fibres was inconclusive. Dr. Uhl has been of great assistance, but she is continuing her investigation. She concluded that the SEM photo-micrographs do resemble fibrous bundle sheaths in palm stems. However, without the full bundle, she could not be conclusive."

The report continues to state that Dr. Uhl is referring the work to an expert in Leopoldinia spp, a species that has been used for fibre in the past, and is native to the new world.

So, two samples of uncertain provenance were unable to be positively identified by two separate experts.

"Letter from the 'National Research Council of Canada' Ottawa, October 7, 1970 to The Oak Island Exploration,
Identification of Fibrous Material"

"Dear Mr. Ellard:
As requested in our telephone conversation of September 14, 1970 and your letter of September 17, 1970, I forwarded four samples of fibrous materials from the beach at Smith's Cove Oak Island to Dr, J.H. Soper, Chief Botanist, National Museum of Natural Sciences. Coconut fibers were indentified in three of the four samples."

This is from one of the letters from the second link I started this thread with! There is some more but I don't have time this second.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Raparee]

"Letter from the 'National Research Council of Canada' Ottawa, October 7, 1970 to The Oak Island Exploration,
Identification of Fibrous Material"

"Dear Mr. Ellard:
As requested in our telephone conversation of September 14, 1970 and your letter of September 17, 1970, I forwarded four samples of fibrous materials from the beach at Smith's Cove Oak Island to Dr, J.H. Soper, Chief Botanist, National Museum of Natural Sciences. Coconut fibers were indentified in three of the four samples."

This is from one of the letters from the second link I started this thread with! There is some more but I don't have time this second.

Cheers, Loki

Which tells me that there is no consensus on the nature of what is being called coconut fibre, therefore, no conclusions should be drawn based on them, nor should any assumptions based on them be accepted.

 

[swiftfan]

then not pre-columbian, correct?
Cheers, Loki

Correct. I had the dates confused with something else.

 

[lokiblossom]

Which tells me that there is no consensus on the nature of what is being called coconut fibre, therefore, no conclusions should be drawn based on them, nor should any assumptions based on them be accepted.

And lets not forget the sample the Lagina team had identified as coconut fibre under the SEM a couple of years ago. Also if you have read the links you would notice Beta Analytic called the material coconut fibre with no reservation. I believe there is enough evidence to safely call the material "coconut fibre" and date it to approximately the middle of the 13th century.

Cheers, Loki