Concession hunt

[bugbitingme]

I am a booster for the high school football program and AD for the middle school league. Our high school is the oldest in the county and I figure there are a lot of lost coins in the soil around the concession stand. I researched the Georgia laws about hunting on public property and found I must get written permission from the school board and give the DNR a five day notice prior to the actual hunt. The school board got back to me and advised it would be about two weeks before I get permission in writting, due to spring break. Everyone is really nice about it and grateful I am following the law. Hope the hunt makes it a worthwhile fund raiser.

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

bug-biting-me, I don't get it. What does state level laws have to do with a city owned high school? This a city high school, not a state run high school, isn't it?

You've got to remember there are various levels of govt. controlled/regulated land.

1) There's federal land (interstate highway right-of-ways, military bases, federally run parks, etc...).

2) Then there's state level land (the state park's system, state schools/universities, state highway right-of-ways, etc...)

3) Then there's county level land (county run parks, county roads right-of-ways, un-incorporated county land, etc...)

4) And lastly there's city level land (city parks, curb-strips, city offices, city streets, etc....).

The rules for each are different, when it comes to metal detecting. You must be thinking that because this city school is "within a state", that you are somehow bound by something at the state level? Not so! No more so, than thinking that federal laws apply to your school, because afterall, you're in the "USA", right? doh!

But to get to the root of your question: I would not have asked at all, for permission to detect a public school, to begin with. If it's not specifically disallowed (at the city level, assuming this is a city school), then why would you need to ask? I mean, would you have asked to fly a frisbee? Use the swingset? etc.... Just check the city website, and city law/rules are usually there. If the rules are silent on the issue of md'ing, then so be it!

 

[bugbitingme]

Tom,
I know it sounds crazy, but in Georgia, State law dictates what we have to do to hunt on public land. The school grounds are deemed public land because it is owned by the county school board. The state also dictates that the State archaeologist be given five days notice before digging on public grounds, even when you have written permission. Believe me, I have researched the law and communicated with both the DNR and the school board.

I talked with our school board rep and am sure we will get the permission required and the DNR will have a record of our conversations and the five day notice, in case the police question us. Like I said before, it is crazy, but better than a large fine or jail with a record.

 

[bugbitingme]

Here is a copy of the DNR response.
Hi Richard-
Thank you for your inquiry and interest in Georgia archaeology. You'll need permission from the landowner (I think we were assuming it would be Cobb County)- they may or may not have a permitting process. Some counties do, but I'm not aware of which ones. You must notify our office 5 days in advance of ground disturbance. If you are planning on metal detecting this weekend, please make the proper notification and we will note that you have been addressing our office for the past couple days pertaining to this issue. To notify the State Archaeologist by phone, call this toll-free number: 866-755-0014. Or you may send an email to [email protected].


Please leave a message with:

- your name and contact information
- the county in which you will be digging and other information as to the specific tract of land or location, and
- the date(s) on which you expect to be there.


Please be aware that it is prohibited under Official Code of Georgia Section 31-21-6 to disturb human graves and associated grave objects. Should you inadvertently encounter anything associated with a burial, please immediately contact the local law enforcement officials for assistance, as directed by this code section.

The purpose of the notification is incase police are called, we will have verification that you have given notice. We also advise you to also keep the written landowner's permission on your person the entire time you are digging in case any questions arise.

Let me know if you have any additional questions-
Jenn

Jennifer Bedell
Staff Archaeologist
Historic Preservation Division GADNR
254 Washington Street, SW
Ground Floor
Atlanta, Ga 30334-9007
phone: 404.657.1042
FAX: 770.342.4032
[email protected]
www.gashpo.org

 

[lostcauses]

bugbitingme
Thanks for trying to do it the right way.

 

[bugbitingme]

Actually another way to stop you is to put handcuffs on you and throw you in the back of a cruiser. I know other states have different rules, but they don't apply in Georgia.

 

[bugbitingme]

I would be happy to just go hunt the fair grounds or county park, but I need assurance you will pay any fines and bail me out in a timely manner. Any other Georgia MD'ers to back me up? Don't get upset with me, I am new to the forum and don't want to get into arguments, just discussions.

 

[lostcauses]

I would be happy to just go hunt the fair grounds or county park, but I need assurance you will pay any fines and bail me out in a timely manner. Any other Georgia MD'ers to back me up? Don't get upset with me, I am new to the forum and don't want to get into arguments, just discussions.

You have touched on an argument of don't ask and it wont still up the officials over the ethical aspect of always be sure you have permission.

The truth is if it can be avoided, talking to the local political people is a good way to stir up trouble.
The ethical aspect of this become KNOW the law and follow it.

You have researched and are following the law. It is a good thing I believe.

As you have already seen you are getting some flack. Don't worry about it.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Bug-biting-me, I am trying hard to sort through all the aspects of your quotes you give (from your permission seeking experience there), and wondering where to start. So forgive me if this runs long.

For starters, I believe you have run up against the following psychology: It works like this: Joe Blow walks in to city hall (or county hall, or the state capitol, or at the desk of a state archaeologist, or whatever/whoever public official you care to name), and asks a desk clerk: "Can I do such & such?" Now think of it: He'll either get one of 4 answers: 1) Sure, go ahead, have a ball. 2) Sure, but you must go through this many hoops to do so, 3) No you absolutely can not, or 4) why are you asking us? That's a silly question? You don't need permission to do that to begin with.

Now believe it or not, you will rarely ever get answer #4, even when it may well be the answer. Why? Because you are standing there in front of them, asking their permission, which implies permission was needed, to begin with (lest why would you go to them for permission, in the first place?). And with that inference in mind, you will easily get someone to say yes or no (usually the latter, as that's much easier for them). I mean, let's take for example, if I were to walk in to city hall somewhere and ask "can my buddy & I fly a frisbee in the park?" I bet I could find someone to tell me "sure, go ahead" or "yes, but you'll need to take out a group permit" or whatever. Using your own rationale, I suppose I could therefore deduce: "See?? The asking of permission was necessary, since ....... after all, they said 'yes' which means it was within their pervue of granting yes's or no's, otherwise they'd have laughed and said "why are you asking me?" You see? rarely would a desk clerk (or archie, or whatever) have laughed and said "you don't need to ask us". Which YOU take to mean, that therefore asking was necessary (since the mere fact that they gave you an answer, must, by definition, mean they have the authority to grant, or not grant you, the yes).

And as to the archaeologist's responses you cite, I fail to see where they quote any laws saying that no one can detect Georgia state land without their say-so. Except the disturbing of graves thing, which is the only actual law you/they cite. In fact, their whole answer is couched in "your inquiry and interest in Georgia archaeology". Huh? Since WHEN is someone's desire to go hunt coins underneath a bleachers, or around a concession stand, an "interest in archaeology"?? But guess what? Since you ask an archie, and since they, by their very nature, are usually anti-md'ing, they will GLADLY make that leap for you, and tell you that any such "disturbance" constitutes "archaeology". And PRESTO: "no you can't go". And you, the careful inquirer, are left to deduce "gee, it's a good thing I asked".

I can tell you of endless public places, on all different levels of govt, where no one cares, and detecting has simply gone on since the dawn of time. But if you looked long enough and hard enough (as you have apparently done), you can ALWAYS find someone up the chain of command and bureaucracy, to tell you no, on some level, with some remote connection of minutia. Yes, I gaurantee you that if anyone in the USA can tell you that they can just go to a beach, a sandbox, a park, etc.. in their area, w/o asking, and no one cares, it merely means they haven't asked far enough up the chain of command, to find someone to tell them "no". Or if they did get a "yes", it merely means they didn't ask high enough up, or ask with the right implications in mind. I mean someone can say we're doing archaeology if they want, someone can say we're "collecting" (which is usually forbidden at all levels, to keep people from pulling up in a pickup truck to help themselves to rocks, sand, turf, etc....), or they can say we might harm the wildlife with radio frequencies we emit, or they can say we'll damage or disturb things, etc.. etc... etc ... You can always find a way to get a "no", if you ask with the right preconceptions in mind, to the right personell. If you get a "yes", I gaurantee that if you keep going to different city dept's, or overstep them and go the county, then the state, and then the fed. level, you will eventually find something that restricts you to your own backyard (with your wife's permission, of course!).

Ok, disecting some more: Your contact cites no laws (except the graves disturbance thing), but does say "you'll need the permission of the landowner (which in this case, is the city level school district). To that I would say "yes and no". Because "yes, you have to have permission, so to speak". But that "permission", in the eyes of the law, can also be "implied consent" or "implied permission". In other words, just like the frisbee analogy, it is implied that you HAVE permission, if there is nothing specific that prohibits it, to begin with. Ie.: we taxpayers are ALREADY allowed in the park to recreate. Yet that permission can be "revoked", if a public personell uses his judgement to deduce that some nuisance is going on. Which is to say, that even though detecting might not be specifically dis-allowed, a public servant (cop, ranger, gardener, etc...) can still say "but I think you're harming the earthworms", etc... So as far as their saying "ask the landowner", is ....again .... couched in some sort of archie's preconceptions that what you are about to do, is somehow illegal, needs sanction, etc.... Ie.: that it's archaeology.

So please: get the law that these guys you quote, have in their mind, that says you need to go through all these hoops, to begin with. The only one they cite so far, is the graves thing. The rest is just their text, for this letter (ie.: "since you asked, here's what we say you must do" type of thing, with no laws to back up what they're saying). Once we have those laws they allude to, that say you can not disturb any public land, and any such disturbance is automatically "archaeology", then we can talk some more.

And if they can produce such a thing, it might be along the lines of a topic that came up about this, in Kentucky a few years ago. There too, some upper level archies were trying to say that no one, anywhere, could dig on any level of public land, within the state. But upon further scrutiny of the actual laws they were aluding to, it becomes obvious that the "sites" that are forbidden, are ..... archaeoligical sites! They jump from that, to a false premise that the entire state of Kentucky IS an archaeological site! But I clearly found elsewhere that sites have to be individually DECLARED as such (sort of like how England has what they call "scheduled" sites, for instance). Will that stop an archie in that state from saying otherwise? Probably not.

It would be like asking the PETA president "can I leave my bunny in a hot car for 30 minutes while I run into the store?" Well of COURSE they'd say "no", and threaten you with animal cruelty charges, etc... because they are fanatical animal/bunny advocates. And so too, are some "purist" archies so focused on hatred to anyone who dare digs a bottle or coin, that they too would easily tell you "no", even if it didn't actually hold water.
Trust me Bug-biting-me: detecting goes on a public schools, beaches, parks, etc... in Georgia, and no one goes and gets those archie's permission. And amazingly, they don't end up in jail, face fines, etc....

This is CLEARLY a case of "No one cares ...... UNTIL you ask". If you doubt this, search around amongst Georgia md'ing enthusiasts, and you will easily find people who hunt parks, forests, beaches, schools, etc... Ask them "did you get an archaeological permit?" and see what they say. At most, they might have asked the local school board (or more likely checked the wooden sign at the entrance to see if there were any prohibitions, and left it at that).

Here's threads on the whole psychology (the vicious circle) that you find yourself in now:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,249049.0.html

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,164453.msg1198415.html#msg1198415

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

If there is no sign posted do not detect, I detect. On school grounds in Florida you have to have permission from the school itself, but you do not have to permission from the city, or the state.

Remember the more people you ask that you do not need to ask, the greater the chance someone who does not have the right, will tell you no.... If there is no written law against it, then detect... As Spooky says "If it isn't a HISTORICAL SITE or NO PUBLIC ACCESS, or private property" then detect. If you don't ask permission to play frisbie, throw a ball, play with a dog, playing a guitar, then why ask to detect.............

Some people would seek written permission to pee in a public bathroom.

 

[ivan salis]

Ga is well known to be a very unfreindly state metal detecting wize as far as "public land " goes --they even want you to tell them if your going to hunt private land --5 days ahead of time to see if they deem it nessicary to send a "person" to the area ( the state of Ga is very serious about any thing that could lead to native american and other grave site disturbing )----the hunting of ANY public owned property (state,county or city) of ANY type will require a "permit" by the state to be fully "legal" (since all of the "land" in question it is within the state's borders --its within control of the state arch dept is the state of ga's "legal" view --like it or not)

 

[lostcauses]

This is turning out to be a fun thread:
And oh I have permission to pee in a public restroom. LOL
Some states and city do forbid metal detecting on public property.
Again know the laws in your area. You are doing the act, it is YOUR responsibility to know.
Here is a state that seems to have laws, and a poster that it doing it the right way.

Hell most here would just go with the I am a member of the public: I own it since it is public: and therefore give myself permission process.
Some people got the hunting bug, "bad"... LOL

Ah: Such a touchy subject that "permission to hunt" thing is.
And it is usually so simple to get, or in the case of public lands, to know.

edited to add: The person that made a dig at me, of course has me on ignore. ROTFLOL.

 

[bugbitingme]

I didn't mean to set off an "Uncivil War", just a thought that old school concession stands may be a ripe place to MD. My last word on this will be to include something of note in the law.

(c) Possession of any archeological artifact collected on or after July 1, 2001, without the written permission of the owner of the land from which the artifact was removed shall be prima-facie evidence that the archeological artifact was taken in violation of this chapter. As to archeological artifacts unlawfully in the possession of any person or entity, same shall be confiscated and held by the appropriate law enforcement official(s) and shall be returned by said official(s) to the property owner from whose property the artifacts were improperly removed. (d) Any person who violates any provision of subsection (a) or (b) of this Code section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

thanx for the quote bug-biting-me.

Now how do they define an "archaeological artifact"?

If you/they say a coin or item over a certain # of years old, then what do you do with people who posses coin collections there? Does someone with a tray of indian head cents passed down to him by his grandfather, constitute a collection of "archaeological artifacts" that he must prove didn't come from the ground?

Look, let's just cut to the chase then: a) if it really applies to all public land there, and b) if it's just a matter of age and what constitutes an archaeological artifact, to begin with, then what's to say that all you found was clad? I mean, afterall, that's all your finding, RIGHT?? In all my 35 yrs. of this, I have YET to have anyone standing over me with a calculator doing the math on the age of the coins I find.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

My apology to Lostcauses, while we will never see eye to eye when it comes to permissions and hunting, artifact or detecting, I still should not have posted the comment, it has been corrected.......

 

[Shambler]

Tom is, once again, 100% right about this. I have NO idea what motivates folks to ask big brother every time they want to take a step. Some common sense here would have you already digging to find out someone dug it all years ago (without "permission")

 

[bazinga]

For starters, [mod]DELETED – Forum Rules Violation (Wreckdiver1715)[/mod]

Comical.

 

[bugbitingme]

For starters, [mod]DELETED – Forum Rules Violation (Wreckdiver1715)[/mod]

Comical.

Wow, attacking my character, my equipment and my morals. Not what I expected from this forum, but I wish nothing but blessings for you.

 

[ivan salis]

its his time hes spending , and his equiptment hes using --and he lives in GA too boot * a very tough state to deal with MDing wize on public land --and he'd rather be safe than sorry --rules wize -- he has clearly worked hard to make it happen , so he can detect --so wish him well rather than attack him -- if you think he's being too "timid" in his approach --just be glad you do not live in georgia -- I just attended a archie conferance in st augustine not long ago * to hear a bit about things they found -- one of the guest speakers was the southern region depty director from GA. -- they are very strict and serious in georgia about "public land" metal detecting *

 

[bazinga]

For starters, [mod]DELETED – Forum Rules Violation (Wreckdiver1715)[/mod]

Comical.

Wow, attacking my character, my equipment and my morals. Not what I expected from this forum, but I wish nothing but blessings for you.

My bad.... I will post the way everybody else does on this forum instead of being completely honest as to not offend anybody.


You are doing a wonderful job and using a wonderful machine. Go get 'em tiger!