Cruel Fate - Lima Cobs Melted Down

[divewrecks]

British crown from my collection....Stan


During the War of the Austrian Succession, Great Britain was the ally of Maria Theresa of Austria, and fought its two greatest maritime rivals, France and Spain. In July 1745, Captains James Talbot and John Morecock, commanding two privateers in the North Atlantic, the Prince Frederick and the Duke, captured two French treasure ships returning from Callao, the port of Lima. Their haul was £800,000 in silver coins and ingots, plus gold and other goods. When they landed at Bristol in October it took 45 wagons to transport the coin and bullion (which weighed over 78 tons) to the Tower Mint. There the silver was used in the production of the so-called 'Lima' coinage of 1746. It was requested that the word 'Lima' be used on the coins to celebrate the exploit. Here LIMA can be seen spelled out under the portrait of King George II (reigned 1727-60)

A letter from a lieutenant on the Prince Frederick was published in Gentleman's Magazine in August 1745:

'The 12th July (which is now the toast here) we took two rich ships... As we shot their masts away, we were obliged to tow them for three weeks, till we got here, in which we had the good fortune never to be disturned by Jack Spaniard or Frenchman. These ships went out four years ago to Peru and Chili and had on board (as by their bills of lading now come to hand) one million sterling in gold and silver coin, besides 800 tons of cocoa, and we are every day discovering more treasure that has been concealed... We have a marquis of France, a governor of Peru, friars in abundance, one of whom threw a gold chalice into the sea of great value that it should not come into our hands.'

 

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[TNBob]

Awesome Coin! Thanks for showing. Bob

 

[Michigan Badger]

Well this just goes to prove that one man's cob is another man's coin.

 

[divewrecks]

This was not the first time the Brits taunted the Spaniards via coinage. Here is the story of the Vigo Bay coins. There were both gold and silver issues minted. This is probably the rarest, a 1703 five guinea, gold (not mine unfortunately).

Stan


In 1702, the English and the Dutch teamed against the Spanish and the French. The imperialist quests of French King Louis IV, and Spanish expansion in the Western Hemisphere, were pertinent factors. In a major naval victory for the British and the Dutch, the Spanish port city of Vigo was invaded and a substantial number of Spanish ships carrying gold and silver were captured in Vigo Bay.

Queen Anne issued a directive that the seized gold and silver be used for English coins. The Director of the London Mint was one of the great scientists of all time, Sir Isaac Newton, who personally attended to the delivery of the gold and silver that was seized from the Spanish. A large quantity of silver and less than eight pounds of gold were delivered. The battle at Vigo bay, however, was a major blow to both the Spanish and the French. The Royal Navy (of England and later the UK) was to be the leading force on the high seas for centuries, until World War II when the United States became the number one naval power in the world.

 

[cuzcosquirrel]

The other source of the gold and silver for these coins was the capture by George Anson of the Manila bound galleon Nuestra Senora de Covadonga at the opening of the Straight of San Bernardino.

There was talk of using the word "Acapulco" instead of "Lima" but they probably chose the shorter word because of the space available, and because the gold and silver had not been minted in Acapulco, but in Lima and Potosi.

 

[divewrecks]

Yeah, that was a big haul, said to include "1,313,843 pieces of eight". Wow!

Stan

 

[Tanneyhill]

captured two French treasure ships returning from Callao, the port of Lima. Their haul was £800,000 in silver coins and ingots, plus gold and other goods

Old thread, but I am very curious, what was a French treasure ship doing transporting bullion from the Spanish colonies in the 18th century? The amount of silver is rather large for silver "earned" in trading of goods by France or was this silver owed to France by Spain?

 

[Crow]

Hello Tannyhill

In answer to your question? Game of thrones on steroids!

In short version in breeding and Mafia economies fighting for dominance over trade!

The long version

There was a series Monarchs: the Spanish Hapsburg dynasty was replaced by the Bourbon dynasty of France: Philip (Felipe) V ruled 1700-46, Ferdinand (Fernando) VI ruled 1746-59, Charles (Carlos) III ruled 1759-88, and Charles (Carlos) IV ruled 1789-1803.

The Spanish Hapsburg was so inbred that was unable have healthy children either having mental issues or physical health issues. Next in was line of succession to the Spanish throne was through marriage was the Bourbon dynasty of France.


The early years of 18th century were a period of severe adjustments for Spain, long accustomed to “calling the shots” in Europe. These years were marked by a new royal dynasty, the French Bourbons, a centralization of power, and a humiliating loss of territory in Europe.

Britain, France and Austria were the main Western European powers during these early years, and Spain was reduced to a “junior” role, although it still retained its American and Pacific possessions. Hence in this time french ships carrying silver and gold from Callao!

The struggle for power between Britain and France during the 18th century frequently placed Spain in an awkward situation. The Bourbon connection between France and Spain, and Spain’s concerns over Britain’s strength in the Atlantic certainly gave France a decided edge where Spanish support was concerned.

But France’s own ambitions in the Americas, to the detriment of Spanish interests, sometimes made Spain’s support of France ambivalent. Still, as a general rule, Spain found itself as France’s junior partner. Indicative of the French-Spanish alliance are the three Family Compacts signed between the two countries in 1733, 1743, and 1761, in each of which Spain backed French interests.

Broadly speaking, in the first Compact, France backed Spain’s right to recover possessions in Italy in return for Spain’s support in the War of the Polish succession. Spain resented the emasculation of its power in Europe, and given Spain’s historical domination in the Italian peninsula, Italy became an obsessive factor in its foreign policy following the Treaty of Utrecht (1713).

As it happens, this obsession coincided with the ambitions of Philip V’s second wife, the headstrong and imperious Italian-born Isabel Farnese of Parma. Since her husband’s children by his first wife were first in line for the Spanish throne, she schemed to obtain Italian kingdoms for her two sons. The Compact proved beneficial. In 1734, Spanish troops recovered Naples and Sicily and Isabel’s older son Charles was crowned King of Naples (or more commonly King of the Two Sicilies).

The Second Family Compact (1743), this time in support of France’s involvement with the Austrian War of Succession, resulted in the installation of Charles’s younger brother Philip as duke of Parma and Piacenza in 1748.

The recovery of lost European territory might have appeased Spanish pride for the moment, but it was a mere illusion of power. It was Spain’s last hurrah on the European scene and, indeed, had diverted the country’s attention from the on-going dangers to its transatlantic territories, the source of its wealth and remaining influence. Here the divergent interests of Britain, France, and Spain produced constant irritations and outbreaks of hostilities.

It was over events in the Atlantic that Spain entered into the third Family Compact (1761), at the height of Anglo-French hostilities and at the tail end of the much more widespread Seven Years War (1756-63)


The Seven Years War involved a wide–ranging battle between Britain and France for colonial supremacy, and Austrian and Prussian conflicts over domination of German lands. Britain gave support to Prussia, France to Austria.

Spain’s involvement was not overly wise, but there was considerable fear in Madrid that a British victory over the French would expand British power and increase pressure on Spanish territory in North and Central America.

When hostilities were concluded at the Treaty of Paris in February 1763, territories changed around in North America like pieces on a checkerboard. The big winner was Britain, the big loser France (losing Quebec to England and ceding Louisiana to Spain).

Spain fared a little better than its Bourbon ally, losing Florida to the British but gaining Louisiana from the French. From Britain it also got back Havana and Manila, which had been captured during the war, but it was obliged to recognize British fishing monopoly off Newfoundland and English logging rights in the Yucatan (Gulf of Mexico, western Caribbean).

Britain’s satisfaction at the Treaty of Paris was, however, soon cut short. In the 1770s the American colonists began agitating for autonomy. The French got a measure of revenge by recognizing the independence of the rebels and sending troops to help them.

The colonists’ goal was achieved when Britain recognized their independence in 1783 at the Treaty of Versailles, seven years after the colonists’ Declaration of Independence in 1776. Benjamin Franklin spent 9 years in Paris as an agent and ambassador. A Treaty of Alliance between France and the Americans was signed in 1778 and 9000 French troops fought alongside Washington’s army in the final siege of Yorktown in 1781.

After some hesitancy, Spain too joined the fray as an ally of the French (1779), but did not officially recognize the American rebels’ independence. The possibility that the Spanish colonies might be inspired to follow suit was not lost on Madrid.

What Spain sought was to expel Britain from the Gulf of Mexico and regain Gibraltar and Menorca. As a result Spain became embroiled in a four-year war with Britain (1779-83), after which it recovered Menorca and Florida, but not Gibraltar.

To compound things Events at the end of the 18th century were strongly influenced by the tumultuous after-effects of the French Revolution (1789). The anti royalist sentiments that fired much of the Revolution predictably made the Spanish royal house very nervous.

During the french revolution Bourbon supporters feared that if Louis XVI –a Bourbon cousin– fell, the Spanish house would not be far behind. Efforts were made to save the imprisoned Louis, but to no avail. His head rolled off the guillotine in January of 1793, and Bourbon France was no more.

Fear of republican contamination from revolutionary France, with its hostility towards religion, private property, monarchy, led Spain to strike an uneasy alliance with the one country able to withstand France … Spain’s traditional enemy, Britain!

This is turn prompted France to declare war on Spain (and Britain) in March, 1793 (usually known as the War of the Pyrenees). To the amazement of France, Spanish forces crossed the Pyrenees in April 1793, spurred on by enthusiastic calls to protect traditional Spanish values.

The Church proclaimed the war as a crusade, and the monarchy was fiercely defended. Enthusiasm, however, did not make up for deficiencies in leadership and Spain was unable to prevent French military forces from penetrating Catalonia, Navarre and the Basque provinces in 1794.

A peace treaty signed in 1795 (in Basle) saw the French retire north of the Pyrenees, in return for which Spain ceded to the French half of the Caribbean island of Santo Domingo (now made up of Haiti and the Dominican Republic).

In the following year, still fearful of British sea power and colonial ambitions, Spain swung back into the French camp, signing the Treaty of San Ildefonso (1796) and declaring war on Britain. It turned out to be disastrous for Spain. A joint Franco-Spanish fleet was crushed at Cape St Vincent (off the Algarve coast, southern Portugal), the island of Trinidad was taken by England, British ships blockaded Cádiz and most trade with America was cut off.

Meanwhile in revolutionary France, Napoleon Bonaparte was making a name for himself. After a number of military victories, he effectively took power declaring himself First Consul in 1799, and Emperor in 1804. Napoleon’s soldiers entered Spain in 1807, their presence eventually unleashing a war of interdependence (aka the Peninsular War) that brought about political and social changes that left an indelible mark on modern Spain.

Ironic because Spains earlier fears came true. because the American war of independence inspired south America colonies to revolt against Spain. 1811 - 1825.

Crow





Sources:

 

[Tanneyhill]

Hello Tannyhill

In answer to your question? Game of thrones on steroids!

In short version in breeding and Mafia economies fighting for dominance over trade!

The long version

There was a series Monarchs: the Spanish Hapsburg dynasty was replaced by the Bourbon dynasty of France: Philip (Felipe) V ruled 1700-46, Ferdinand (Fernando) VI ruled 1746-59, Charles (Carlos) III ruled 1759-88, and Charles (Carlos) IV ruled 1789-1803.

The Spanish Hapsburg was so inbred that was unable have healthy children either having mental issues or physical health issues. Next in was line of succession to the Spanish throne was through marriage was the Bourbon dynasty of France.


The early years of 18th century were a period of severe adjustments for Spain, long accustomed to “calling the shots” in Europe. These years were marked by a new royal dynasty, the French Bourbons, a centralization of power, and a humiliating loss of territory in Europe.

Britain, France and Austria were the main Western European powers during these early years, and Spain was reduced to a “junior” role, although it still retained its American and Pacific possessions. Hence in this time french ships carrying silver and gold from Callao!

The struggle for power between Britain and France during the 18th century frequently placed Spain in an awkward situation. The Bourbon connection between France and Spain, and Spain’s concerns over Britain’s strength in the Atlantic certainly gave France a decided edge where Spanish support was concerned.

But France’s own ambitions in the Americas, to the detriment of Spanish interests, sometimes made Spain’s support of France ambivalent. Still, as a general rule, Spain found itself as France’s junior partner. Indicative of the French-Spanish alliance are the three Family Compacts signed between the two countries in 1733, 1743, and 1761, in each of which Spain backed French interests.

Broadly speaking, in the first Compact, France backed Spain’s right to recover possessions in Italy in return for Spain’s support in the War of the Polish succession. Spain resented the emasculation of its power in Europe, and given Spain’s historical domination in the Italian peninsula, Italy became an obsessive factor in its foreign policy following the Treaty of Utrecht (1713).

As it happens, this obsession coincided with the ambitions of Philip V’s second wife, the headstrong and imperious Italian-born Isabel Farnese of Parma. Since her husband’s children by his first wife were first in line for the Spanish throne, she schemed to obtain Italian kingdoms for her two sons. The Compact proved beneficial. In 1734, Spanish troops recovered Naples and Sicily and Isabel’s older son Charles was crowned King of Naples (or more commonly King of the Two Sicilies).

The Second Family Compact (1743), this time in support of France’s involvement with the Austrian War of Succession, resulted in the installation of Charles’s younger brother Philip as duke of Parma and Piacenza in 1748.

The recovery of lost European territory might have appeased Spanish pride for the moment, but it was a mere illusion of power. It was Spain’s last hurrah on the European scene and, indeed, had diverted the country’s attention from the on-going dangers to its transatlantic territories, the source of its wealth and remaining influence. Here the divergent interests of Britain, France, and Spain produced constant irritations and outbreaks of hostilities.

It was over events in the Atlantic that Spain entered into the third Family Compact (1761), at the height of Anglo-French hostilities and at the tail end of the much more widespread Seven Years War (1756-63)


The Seven Years War involved a wide–ranging battle between Britain and France for colonial supremacy, and Austrian and Prussian conflicts over domination of German lands. Britain gave support to Prussia, France to Austria.

Spain’s involvement was not overly wise, but there was considerable fear in Madrid that a British victory over the French would expand British power and increase pressure on Spanish territory in North and Central America.

When hostilities were concluded at the Treaty of Paris in February 1763, territories changed around in North America like pieces on a checkerboard. The big winner was Britain, the big loser France (losing Quebec to England and ceding Louisiana to Spain).

Spain fared a little better than its Bourbon ally, losing Florida to the British but gaining Louisiana from the French. From Britain it also got back Havana and Manila, which had been captured during the war, but it was obliged to recognize British fishing monopoly off Newfoundland and English logging rights in the Yucatan (Gulf of Mexico, western Caribbean).

Britain’s satisfaction at the Treaty of Paris was, however, soon cut short. In the 1770s the American colonists began agitating for autonomy. The French got a measure of revenge by recognizing the independence of the rebels and sending troops to help them.

The colonists’ goal was achieved when Britain recognized their independence in 1783 at the Treaty of Versailles, seven years after the colonists’ Declaration of Independence in 1776. Benjamin Franklin spent 9 years in Paris as an agent and ambassador. A Treaty of Alliance between France and the Americans was signed in 1778 and 9000 French troops fought alongside Washington’s army in the final siege of Yorktown in 1781.

After some hesitancy, Spain too joined the fray as an ally of the French (1779), but did not officially recognize the American rebels’ independence. The possibility that the Spanish colonies might be inspired to follow suit was not lost on Madrid.

What Spain sought was to expel Britain from the Gulf of Mexico and regain Gibraltar and Menorca. As a result Spain became embroiled in a four-year war with Britain (1779-83), after which it recovered Menorca and Florida, but not Gibraltar.

To compound things Events at the end of the 18th century were strongly influenced by the tumultuous after-effects of the French Revolution (1789). The anti royalist sentiments that fired much of the Revolution predictably made the Spanish royal house very nervous.

During the french revolution Bourbon supporters feared that if Louis XVI –a Bourbon cousin– fell, the Spanish house would not be far behind. Efforts were made to save the imprisoned Louis, but to no avail. His head rolled off the guillotine in January of 1793, and Bourbon France was no more.

Fear of republican contamination from revolutionary France, with its hostility towards religion, private property, monarchy, led Spain to strike an uneasy alliance with the one country able to withstand France … Spain’s traditional enemy, Britain!

This is turn prompted France to declare war on Spain (and Britain) in March, 1793 (usually known as the War of the Pyrenees). To the amazement of France, Spanish forces crossed the Pyrenees in April 1793, spurred on by enthusiastic calls to protect traditional Spanish values.

The Church proclaimed the war as a crusade, and the monarchy was fiercely defended. Enthusiasm, however, did not make up for deficiencies in leadership and Spain was unable to prevent French military forces from penetrating Catalonia, Navarre and the Basque provinces in 1794.

A peace treaty signed in 1795 (in Basle) saw the French retire north of the Pyrenees, in return for which Spain ceded to the French half of the Caribbean island of Santo Domingo (now made up of Haiti and the Dominican Republic).

In the following year, still fearful of British sea power and colonial ambitions, Spain swung back into the French camp, signing the Treaty of San Ildefonso (1796) and declaring war on Britain. It turned out to be disastrous for Spain. A joint Franco-Spanish fleet was crushed at Cape St Vincent (off the Algarve coast, southern Portugal), the island of Trinidad was taken by England, British ships blockaded Cádiz and most trade with America was cut off.

Meanwhile in revolutionary France, Napoleon Bonaparte was making a name for himself. After a number of military victories, he effectively took power declaring himself First Consul in 1799, and Emperor in 1804. Napoleon’s soldiers entered Spain in 1807, their presence eventually unleashing a war of interdependence (aka the Peninsular War) that brought about political and social changes that left an indelible mark on modern Spain.

Ironic because Spains earlier fears came true. because the American war of independence inspired south America colonies to revolt against Spain. 1811 - 1825.

Crow





Sources:

Crow, awesome history lesson with my coffee this morning as I shuffle in transit at the airport. I hope to one day be able to recite history and tell stories as well as you and the rest of your generation of treasure seekers can. You guys r amazing.

 

[Crow]

Crow, awesome history lesson with my coffee this morning as I shuffle in transit at the airport. I hope to one day be able to recite history and tell stories as well as you and the rest of your generation of treasure seekers can. You guys r amazing.

If we do not learn the lessons from the mistakes of the past we are doomed to repeat them. The past like it or hate it! it is how, why and where we are in the world today.

Your time will come. Just do not end up being persona non grata in permanent exile lost in transit.

Crow

 

[Tanneyhill]

persona non grata in permanent exile lost in transit

😂🤣 - well judging by my disdain for unscrupulous self-proclaimed leaders who think they get to dictate how 8 billion people live their lives I will have to try very hard to prevent this one mate.