CZ-21 Vs Minelab Excalibur II

[TheFalseProphet]

Good day,

My first post to this form as well as first post regarding Metal Detecting in general.

I currently own no metal detecting equipment and I'm not looking to spend a bunch of money in the hopes of getting rich but rather a peaceful hobby where I can go out and get some fresh air and some exercise and in the hopes of finding the odd treasure ( by treasure I mean anything of value that and at the same time cleaning up public beaches and waterways from litter ).

So I've done a BUNCH of reading and watching of videos and I've come to the conclusion that I'll be doing saltwater beaches and eventually get my diving certificate and graduate to salt water diving and in order to do this i'll need the right gear...

Minelab Excalibur II is the talk of the internet however they've had a rather poor history of quality control and poor customer service ( last thing I want to do is invest 2k into gear that knobs will break or strip or leak or cables rot away )

Fisher CZ-21... The thing is built like a tank ( at least my first impressions ) and looks suitable for underwater exploring, I've seen no horror stories from users regarding QC or customer service.


I'm new to this so I'm asking for your professional opinion on the pros and cons of the Excalibur II and the CZ-21.

Thank you all and happy hunting !.

 

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[adamBomb]

Excal vs CZ:

As you can see below, this is a ford vs chevy thing. There is no right answer. There are guys that are die hard for one or the other. Both machines are high end for VLF detectors. You are trying to split hairs. Pick one and be done with it.

Depth:

I have seen tests where the CZ was deeper and tests where the Excal was deeper. I have seen tests where a standard CZ beats a heavily modded Excal and tests where a heavily modded excal beats a CZ. It seems like this depends on how well you know the detector, if its 'hot', and know how to get it to its max depth. Overall they are both probably equal. Here are links to a few depth tests:

Test Results Data photo added - Friendly Metal Detecting Forums
http://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=100325
CZ 21 Vs Excal 1000 air test - Friendly Metal Detecting Forums
Tom... question concerning CZ6a/CZ3d vs. Sovereign GT...

And if you are concerned about air depth tests read this post. The general conclusion is that a machine that doesn't air test well won't ground test any better vs a machine that does air test well: http://www.garysdetecting.co.uk/hoard_test.htm

Do you want an automatic ground balancing unit ( Excal) or a manual gb unit ( CZ) ?

Automatic is nice because you don’t need to ground balance when switching from water to wetsand to dry sand. This is why many people prefer the automatic on the excal. But being able to ground balance can give you extra sensitivity which can translate to extra depth, which is why people prefer the ground balance on the CZ.

Do you like DD coils ( Excal) or concentric coils (CZ) ?

Perks of the CC:. If the mineralization isn't bad enough to where the DD might come into it's own depth and stability wise, then the concentric in theory should have slightly more depth right at the very center of the coil, and at that fringe edge of the field it should in theory also have excellent separation from any angle, where as a DD will have it's best at only certain angles. Contrast that though with a DD tending to have better left/right separation over more of it's vertical span into the ground.

Perks of a DD: Better stability/depth in mineralization after a certain point, better left/right separation, better coverage length wise at depth, though as said a concentric can have better depth at the very tight center of it if both coils are the same size.

Multiple tones ( Excal) or 3 tones ( CZ ).

The 3 tons CZ is probably easier for a beginner to pick up and go but the Excal tones can tell you a lot about the target once you get to know them.
Silent search (CZ) vs threshold (Excal)

The CZ will be silent until you hear a target. The Excal will emit a tiny buzz (almost like a mosquito) constantly until you hear a target.

Do you want the unit to null on iron in discriminate mode ( Excal) or do you want to hear iron ( CZ) ?

The excel will just be silent (null) when you go over iron. On the CZ you will hear the iron.

How do they perform in an iron infested area?

Some people prefer the excal so they don’t have to hear the iron and other like the CZ because they can hear the iron. The CZ has been known to false on rusted iron (like rusty nails). It is said this can be overcome by going over the target a few times and it should correct itself. The Excal takes longer to process iron so you will need to go slow so you do not miss good targets.

Tones on deep targets?

As the target gets deeper, discrimination begins to falter and cannot be relied upon. If the target is deep, one should dig regardless of tone. This goes for both machines. That means that as you get deeper the machine becomes less reliable. Thus you dig all deep targets on both machines.

Can they dig tiny gold?

The general belief is that multi freq machines are not very good on small gold compared to other detectors out there because they are locked in salt mode, which translates to masking out small gold. However no detector is really great on chains/earrings. That said you can still find small rings/earrings but I have seen videos of someone going over a gold chain with both machines and the machine not even making a peep. Neither of these machines is great on small gold. The technology isn't there yet. Here is a link where I asked about a machine on the beach that detects small gold: http://www.dankowskidetectors.com/discussions/read.php?2,104459

Check out this other link to read about the technology of these machines and how they detect gold. This post starts out about the CZ but discusses the excal and sovereign as well. And what they say applies to all 3 machines. - CZ owners - Salt training 101

Warranty

1 yr (excal) vs 2 yr (CZ)

Customer Service

CZ probably has overall better customer service. Now that kellyco fixes minelabs this may be pretty equal though.

Costs

Each is $1500. However the excal usually requires a straight shaft ($30-$120) and new knobs ($30) out of the box. So if you go excal expect to pay more $$$ right away. The CZ is ready out of the box. Also, be sure to contact the dealers they will offer discounts on these machines just for calling/emailing.

Modifications

CZ cannot be modded. Excal can be modded like crazy but its not recommended while under warranty. The mods can add a lot of functionality. If you like to 'tinker' with your toys then the excal is probably for you. If you do not want to mess with it get the cz.

Ruggedness

The CZ is known for being built like a tank. The Excal is known for being more fragile. However both should be taken care of and rinsed after salt water use. Taking care of each should make each last for years.

Battery

Excal includes a rechargeable battery that lasts about 15 hours. CZ requires 4 9 volt batteries which last about 40-60 hours.

Mounting

Each can be mounted. The CZ comes with a belt mount. Many people mount each on their belt/chest. I also see people just use both on the shaft. I use the CZ on the shaft and I have a friend that uses the excal on an Anderson shaft. There is a new mount on feebay for the cz21 for $16 that allows me to swing it all day long on the shaft.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

i will take the excall all day long. The knobs is an easy $20.00 fix ,$20 for 5 Anderson knobs, the cables if you take care of your detector will last for years, wipe them with silicone every so often, don't store in a hot garage and give your excal a hot shower after every hunt.... I have owned 3 excals still own two excals that are at least 15 years old and have had no problem with my cables on either. The excal will tell you when you have a gold ring laying beside a piece of iron.....

 

[Fletch88]

I've had 2-3 of each machine in question trying to really compare all the ends and outs for wet sand, surf and scuba detecting. Hands down I like the Excalibur better mainly because of a background threshold in disc mode (pitch hold feature to boot) straight shaft/ mod options and better range of target audio IMHO.

 

[Rick K]

CZ's are about indestructable. I read a lot of posts about guys with two Excals, one to use while the other is out for repair. I have no personal experience of the Excal however.

 

[OBN]

I too like the Excalibur better and it has to be Modified to reach it full potential. But I believe for the CZ21, it's matter of learning it to it's fullest to be competitive.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

The trouble with Adam bomb's answer, is that it's not thorough enough ! Haha. Seriously now:

You've gotten great answers so far. The only thing I would add is that the CZ has a much faster learning curve. Versus the Excalibur where the wacky sounds can drive you bonkers if you're not used to it.

 

[cudamark]

I agree with most of the assessments, however, the tones on the Excalibur are not a problem. If you're used to a multitone detector, you'll feel right at home. If you're not used to one, you're going to search in pin point anyway, in which everything sounds virtually the same in tone, so, it's not an issue initially. Once you switch over to discrimination, that's when you'll get a higher tone for the higher conductors like silver and copper, or lower tones for nickels, tabs, and small gold. If you get a solid tone in discrimination, you're going to dig it anyway, right? As for the statement that " the Excalibur will emit a tiny buzz ( almost like a mosquito) constantly until you hit a target", that isn't a given with the Excalibur. You can turn down the threshold until it's in silent mode. As long as you have the volume turned up, you will hear a target that passes under your coil, as long as the target is big enough to break the silent threshold (which is true for all detectors) The advantage to not hunting in silent mode is those deep, faint, tiny targets that will barely waver the threshold hum. Sometime those won't break a silent search threshold and give you a sound. Better to search with a slight hum if you want to notice those targets. With the Excalibur, you at least have that option.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Spot on cudamark!

If you turn the threshold down as low as possible without it disappearing in pp/all metal mode you can hear the deep targets so much easier and you want hear a sound if you switch to desc mode for same target..

 

[TheRingFinder]

I've owned both - The CZ is not user friendly, mainly for diving. I had mine for a week and the battery compartment flooded, and I was tired of retrieving nails. I moved on to the Excal II and never looked back.( That was many years ago) The Excal is everything I want in a dive machine. Sleek, comfortable, low maintenance, user friendly, rechargeable long lasting batteries and finds all the good stuff - not to mention it looks cool

Other hand - I know people who are great with the CZ21 in shallow water, though I don't know anyone who dives with one. Just my 2 cents !!! Good Luck!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... Better to search with a slight hum.....

Yes, good point cudamark. That is another difference between the two: Is that the CZ is silent search.

I know the debate is always out there as to the pro's and con's of silent search. But just from a preference sakes, I find "silent search" very annoying. There is something comforting about a back-ground threshold, that tells you the machine is on

And the temporary nulling of a threshold tell you that you just went over iron. Which, even though you're going to reject anyhow, yet is helpful to know when you're in areas where nails are present. Because mother nature groups targets together in the inter-tidal zone. So the ability to discern them is helpful. As opposed to a silence that you never even knew they were there.

To the CZ's credit, they might get a "crackle" or one-way chirp over a nail. But the tell-tale audio clues are just much more pronounced with the Excal, IMHO. On the CZ, Some very deep coins can give a one-way, or a chirp, leaving the CZ user perpetually checking a few "just to be sure", leading to a higher percentage of getting fooled by iron (IMHO)

 

[adamBomb]

As far as deep coins or anything deep you should dig, on all machines, regardless of what the machine is trying to say it is. Too many stories out there + videos showing all of these VLF machines giving false negatives on deep gold rings. The deeper the target gets the less reliable the discrimination settings on these machines are. The only targets I wont dig are shallow iron tones. Even if there is a hint that its a deeper signal I wont even go to disc, I will dig.

what I don't like about these machines:

One, they are both locked in Salt Mode, so they are not great on land compared say the CTX or CZ3D which can switch salt mode off/on. This DOES affect depth and performance on land and fresh water. I am not saying they are bad on land just that if you switched off salt mode there would be a significant difference in performance.

Two, they are both not comfortable out of box. The Excal needs a mount or a new shaft right away and the CZ needs a new shaft or that mount piece from ebay. I get these pieces are cheap (<$100) but why these companies are not just changing this stuff is beyond me.

The fact that minelab still hasn't fixed their knob issue is ridiculous and each machine has issues with their cases cracking. I looked at a used excal last year and it was cracked like crazy from overtightening and the battery pack on the CZ does the same thing. If you search these forums you will find so many people that had to send their excals to be fixed and minelab still keeps their warranty at one year. You will also find tons of people that cracked their battery case on the CZ. These warranties really bug me when its a design flaw, not user flaw.

The next thing I do not like is the fact that you cant just switch out the headphones or coils. Its a simple fix for them to use a wire that allows us to change these things. You can change them on the excal but you need to send your machine away and pay for someone to do it. You cant do it at all on the CZ. Why not just include that feature?

Why are they still using technology in these machines that is years old and not improving it every year? Why aren't they improving their designs? My guess to all of this is that they don't sell enough MD to make it worth it to switch and invest in the changes. I am sure each company is aware. If a MD company came out with a machine that detected small gold on the beach, was deep, was waterproof, and allow users to customize it, it would sell like crazy. Neither of these machines does that that and there is not one on the market that can do that either. The only ones even close to detecting small gold are PIs and they have problems discriminating at this point. Anyway, since we are saying what we liked I figured I would say what I dont like about these machines.

Having said that, I will go back to my original statement - each of these machines is good and you will be happy with either. If there is something good in the ground they will each find it. The best finds in these forums were found with both excals and CZs. Some of the best diggers on these forums are using and praise each of them. Unless you really know you would like one better due a feature I would probably shop around and see what one I could get the best price on.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

As far as deep coins or anything deep you should dig, on all machines, regardless of what the machine is trying to say it is. Too many stories out there + videos showing all of these VLF machines giving false negatives on deep gold rings. The deeper the target gets the less reliable the discrimination settings on these machines are. The only targets I wont dig are shallow iron tones. Even if there is a hint that its a deeper signal I wont even go to disc, I will dig.

Now for the what I don't like about these machines:

I didn't say this in my review above which I gathered when I did research on these machines but there are a lot of things about both of these machines that I don't like.

One, they are both locked in Salt Mode, so they are not great on land compared say the CTX or CZ3D which can switch salt mode off/on. This DOES affect depth and performance on land and fresh water. I am not saying they are bad on land just that if you switched off salt mode there would be a significant difference in performance.

Two, they are both not comfortable out of box. The Excal needs a mount or a new shaft right away and the CZ needs a new shaft or that mount piece from ebay. I get these pieces are cheap (<$100) but why these companies are not just changing this stuff is beyond me.

The fact that minelab still hasn't fixed their knob issue is ridiculous. Each machine has issues with their cases cracking. I looked at a used excal last year and it was cracked like crazy from overtightening and the battery pack on the CZ does the same thing. If you search these forums you will find so many people that had to send their excals to be fixed and minelab still keeps their warranty at one year. These warranties really bug me when its a design flaw, not user flaw.

The next thing I do not like is the fact that you cant just switch out the headphones or coils. Its a simple fix for them to use a wire that allows us to change these things. You can change them on the excal but you need to send your machine away and pay for someone to do it. You cant do it at all on the CZ. Why not just include that feature?

Why are they still using technology in these machines that is years old and not improving it every year? Why aren't they improving their designs? My guess to all of this is that they don't sell enough MD to make it worth it to switch and invest in the changes. I am sure each company is aware. If a MD company came out with a machine that detected small gold on the beach, was deep, was waterproof, and allow users to customize it, it would sell like crazy. Neither of these machines is even close to that and there is not one on the market that can do that either. The only ones even close are PI and they have problems discriminating at this point. Anyway, since we are saying what we liked I figured I would say what I dont like about these machines.

Having said that, I will go back to my original statement - each of these machines is good and you will be happy with either. If there is something good in the ground they will each find it. The best finds in these forums were found with both excals and CZs. Some of the best diggers on these forums are using and praise each of them. Unless you really know you would like one better due a feature I would probably shop around and see what one I could get the best price on.

"The fact that minelab still hasn't fixed their knob issue is ridiculous. Each machine has issues with their cases cracking. I looked at a used excal last year and it was cracked like crazy from overtightening and the battery pack on the CZ does the same thing. If you search these forums you will find so many people that had to send their excals to be fixed and minelab still keeps their warranty at one year. These warranties really bug me when its a design flaw, not user flaw."

On the Excal:

I made both of my straight shafts, cost me $25 total for each...

Knobs is a very minor deal and easily corrected for $19.95 to never be a problem again. NO BIG DEAL...

The cracking is caused by the users using steel bolts to hold the control housing and battery on rather than the stock A-clips or a nylon bolt. that is not the manufacture's fault, that is user error.

"The next thing I do not like is the fact that you cant just switch out the headphones or coils. Its a simple fix for them to use a wire that allows us to change these things.


Detector is waterproof to 200 foot which is why you cant do that, water pressure that deep would compromise the connectors. Any splice or connector on the coil cable adds resistance and will degrade the performance....

 

[Top]

Why are they still using technology in these machines that is years old and not improving it every year? Why aren't they improving their designs? My guess to all of this is that they don't sell enough MD to make it worth it to switch and invest in the changes. I am sure each company is aware. If a MD company came out with a machine that detected small gold on the beach, was deep, was waterproof, and allow users to customize it, it would sell like crazy. Neither of these machines does that that and there is not one on the market that can do that either.

I often see this complaint. I think you answered your own question.

It is pretty obvious that if it were possible then someone would do it. Maybe it is possible to do it but in a completely different technology paradigm.
I am certain that if they could improve on what they have built then they would love to bring this 'killer detector' to market.

Maybe a paradigm change to ground penetrating sonic technology would work. I am sure there are researchers looking at techniques other than magnetic conductivity.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

You muse a totally different detector :

....Maybe a paradigm change to ground penetrating sonic technology would work. I am sure there are researchers looking at techniques other than magnetic conductivity.

But then you've already answered your own question:

....It is pretty obvious that if it were possible then someone would do it. ....

Hence what does that tell ? Not as easy or simple as one might think.

 

[cudamark]

Many of the upgrades for the Excalibur are already on the market.......just not by Minelab. I have an Anderson straight shaft, the Grey Ghost headphones, a pin point switch in the handle, and a 15" NEL Attack coil. All are a definite improvement over the stock equipment. These upgrades would not require any new R & D, just an implementation. As for interchangeable components, there are good waterproof connectors that could be incorporated into the design to account for resistance differences. After all, the battery has a waterproof connection and it can be used at the 200 foot depth limit, why not other connectors for the headphones and coils? I think they're probably worried about user carelessness in maintaining these connections and causing Minelab more warranty claims.

 

[adamBomb]

Hence what does that tell ? Not as easy or simple as one might think.

If they could make a waterproof version of Whites TDI Pro, we would be really close. Next start figuring out how to discriminate iron with a PI and we have it. That machine had the options to tune it to small gold and the power to do it and now its discontinued. From everything I have read it sounds like people have worked on this exact project and then gotten sidetracked, pulled onto other things, switched jobs, etc. But my understanding is that they were close with a number of different machines.

Or as you guys mentioned it might be another technology all together. I am not sure we will see it with VLF technology though.

As for interchangeable components, there are good waterproof connectors that could be incorporated into the design to account for resistance differences. After all, the battery has a waterproof connection and it can be used at the 200 foot depth limit, why not other connectors for the headphones and coils? I think they're probably worried about user carelessness in maintaining these connections and causing Minelab more warranty claims.

Definitely.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I think they're probably worried about user carelessness in maintaining these connections and causing Minelab more warranty claims.

Spot on....

Salt water is extremely corrosive, once it intrudes in coil or headphone cable from connections your at the very least going to have to replace the coil or headphones. Replacing a battery cable is about $80 plus labor, a coil $190 - $300 plus about hour labor, head phones $150-$200 plus hour labor..

Cables with intrusion are like vacuum cleaner hoses, they suck the water up the cable if you don't have a good waterproof seal on the underside of the end caps where cables connect your going to get salt water in control housing and on your motherboard....Now we are talking major bucks...[emoji35]

 

[Tom Slick]

Another idea may be to purchase both the Tesoro Tiger Shark (VLF for fresh water) and the Sand Shark (PI for saltwater). They have a life time warranty and you can buy both for less than you'd spend on the Excal or the CZ. They are waterproof to 200 feet so they can be used for diving.

 

[Fletch88]

Yes, good point cudamark. That is another difference between the two: Is that the CZ is silent search.

I know the debate is always out there as to the pro's and con's of silent search. But just from a preference sakes, I find "silent search" very annoying. There is something comforting about a back-ground threshold, that tells you the machine is on

And the temporary nulling of a threshold tell you that you just went over iron. Which, even though you're going to reject anyhow, yet is helpful to know when you're in areas where nails are present. Because mother nature groups targets together in the inter-tidal zone. So the ability to discern them is helpful. As opposed to a silence that you never even knew they were there.

To the CZ's credit, they might get a "crackle" or one-way chirp over a nail. But the tell-tale audio clues are just much more pronounced with the Excal, IMHO. On the CZ, Some very deep coins can give a one-way, or a chirp, leaving the CZ user perpetually checking a few "just to be sure", leading to a higher percentage of getting fooled by iron (IMHO)

This was my experience with the Cz if I ran it in disc mode. Always pausing to check to see if the "crackle" or "chirp" was a false signal or possibly a deeper target. I loved the Autotune threshold on the cz but hated the silent search disc. I personally never get many falses with the Excal in either mode.