Deciding where to dig? opinions wanted.

[Ragnor]

So I have been thinking allot about my course of action when the ground starts to dry out. You'd have to be crazier than me to have been out in the woods the last few days in Western Washington. Plain unsafe.

Anyway to the point
When concidering an old river channel where would you dig first?
Without knowing the actual layout of the bedrock it seams a hard call to make.

I have an area, perhaps 100'x200' to concider. Elevation maps are scetchy at best as are my memories of the last time I was on site.

Lets say we have a leading edge in an arc 20' above , but following the current stream course. Alluvium yielding black sands are visible under a layer of pumice along the leading edge. The pumice layer is 3-4 feet deep. Now I know from past experience there is a low spot back away from the creek it is about centered in the described area. The pumice layer there is a minimum of 6' deep.
Now what I am thinking I want to do is determine the sub soil topography to make an educated guess where a transitional zone is in the underlayment as this is a likely place for placer deposition. Like a deep hole, drop off, sharp bend, etc.

I recall a story of native tribesmen who where helping a diamond prospector in equador. Rather than digging random holes all over the jungle they simply took long rods and probed through the forest floor feeling and listening for the rod to contact river gravel and in this way where able to prospect for buried river chanels. In this manner they did a weeks worth of work in only a day. I was concidering this method of sub surface mapping.

Now there are also likely to be some large cross cutting fractures in the bedrock under the till. Surface cracks in the scoured area would indicate this to be so.

I'm not sure if I should go for the cracks or go for the deepest spot or just start at the edge and follow the bedrock in a likely location. slabbing bedrock in a deep hole sounds like allot of work without a real big hole. In general this material slabs in 2'-3' square by 4'-6' long pieces. It don't break small.

So I figured I'd ask around on here and see what experience and opinions say. All work will be done by hand and money is tight so I need to get in and make a withdrawl as quickly and painlessly as possible. It's all virgin ground, it's just a matter of finding a good crack or boil hole on this small bench.

Anyone who has experience have advice on how to best proceed?

 

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[SunshineMiner]

Sounds like a very interesting predicament to be in! Grabbing my popcorn for a seat

 

[dave wiseman]

The thousand mile journey starts with the first step....

 

[goldhog]

Another thing to consider, and I might be jumping in here late, is are you actually in a good GOLD / mineral deposit area.
Or is that area in LINE WITH deposits above it that could be carried there via water movement.
We spent 4 weeks testing and mapping areas of our lower property and this was often more revealing than the
terrain features and sub-terrain features. We quickly learned to read rocks and their mineral content which
is a great ability to have. i.e. rocks with red, black, minerals, etc were in the dirt we were working.
When we started finding very WHITE quartz, lacking these minerals, we knew we were leaving that zone and sure
enough the gold disappeared as well.

Doc

Good rock...

 

[Ragnor]

Another thing to consider, and I might be jumping in here late, is are you actually in a good GOLD / mineral deposit area.
Or is that area in LINE WITH deposits above it that could be carried there via water movement.
We spent 4 weeks testing and mapping areas of our lower property and this was often more revealing than the
terrain features and sub-terrain features. We quickly learned to read rocks and their mineral content which
is a great ability to have. i.e. rocks with red, black, minerals, etc were in the dirt we were working.
When we started finding very WHITE quartz, lacking these minerals, we knew we were leaving that zone and sure
enough the gold disappeared as well.

Doc

Good rock...

Well, I know that there is a particular series to it along those lines where I work. I know if I see rock 'A' I'm in a likely spot. Now if I start digging in the area where rock A is deposited if I'm in a spot worth digging I will start to uncover rock 'B'. Then I know I am getting close to the good stuff. Now if I'm in the right spot I will start picking up pieces of magnetite... and The size of the magnetite will generally indicate the average size of the gold I'm getting. Although there was not but 3 specks of gold in the hole that I found my largest hand sample of magnetite in. But there was a fossil. I think someone else found that hole first.

So I guess if I was doing post holes I could use that sort of information as a guidline to possible enrichment. Gold in quarts is nearly unheard of in my area. But some altered rocks are very distinctive once you know them. I really dont want to spend my first week driving post holes if I don't have to. I mean, come on man! I just want to pull up to the drivethrough and order take away. I don't wanna have to cook it myself. LOL.
Honestly I don't mind the work. I can't imagine a better job in the world. But I do want to evaluate and assess the potential deposit as effectively as possible. Yah know....

an afterthought: there are also rocks that if alone or in combination with rock A will cause me to immediately dismiss an area. It works to my knowlwdge, but I can also see it causing me to walk by an area just out of predjudice? But yeah it's all valid.

Thanks for the picture btw.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Sample Sample Sample and then dig.

Don't put the cart before the horse. There is no one on this earth smart enough to tell you where to dig without sampling. Why? Because gold is where you find it. Find it first (Sample Sample Sample) and then dig.

The professionals define the nature and extent of the deposit before they make a plan to mine. That is the DISCOVERY phase. Discovery always comes before mining otherwise you are just engaged in hopeful digging (not mining).

If you haven't discovered where the gold isn't as well as where it is you haven't defined the nature and extent of the deposit. If you haven't defined the nature and extent of the deposit you have not accomplished a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit. Without discovery your claim is worth about $240 until you get the mineral challenge notice and then it's worth about -$240.

Sample Sample Sample.

Heavy Pans

 

[Ragnor]

Sample Sample Sample and then dig.

Don't put the cart before the horse. There is no one on this earth smart enough to tell you where to dig without sampling. Why? Because gold is where you find it. Find it first (Sample Sample Sample) and then dig.

The professionals define the nature and extent of the deposit before they make a plan to mine. That is the DISCOVERY phase. Discovery always comes before mining otherwise you are just engaged in hopeful digging (not mining).

If you haven't discovered where the gold isn't as well as where it is you haven't defined the nature and extent of the deposit. If you haven't defined the nature and extent of the deposit you have not accomplished a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit. Without discovery your claim is worth about $240 until you get the mineral challenge notice and then it's worth about -$240.

Sample Sample Sample.

Heavy Pans

I have not mapped the full extent of the deposit. That does not mean I have failed to established the existance of a valuable deposit. I don't really care to post the oz./ton figure here on this forum but I assure you I have run several yards of stream bank material and the averages are more than acceptable to establish the occurance.
Geological reports support my findings and I have discovered and recorded a valid claim. I would think any person of normal cognitive function could reasonably conclude that if you can reach down and grab a hand full of dirt with visible gold in it over a 1000 foot long exposure the presence of a valuable deposit could reasonably be established in the mind of a sain and prudent individual.

My question is simply what is the best method to quickly pinpoint the areas that deserve my first best efforts and should it by my first priority.
It would seam that you strongly support the full sampling grid be carried out before exploring the sub surface topography.

I'm not sure the exact intent of your scathing rebuff. But I'll just assume it may somehow fall upon my best interest.
At any rate I assure you and all concerned that I have in fact established the presence of a valuable placer deposit and proven it and can reproduce my sample grades at will.

Now why not be strait with me. Should I just not discuss these matters of prospecting and mining on this prospecting forum?
Cause I was under the impression this might be a real good place to discuss that kind of information.
I kind of feel like the sinse is beating me in the head with the stick and I am not quite sure what my offence is.
Ive never learned real well by the beat with a stick method.

It rather gives me the impression that my corespondance on here is unwelcome or not in my best interest and I should just move on.

 

[goldenIrishman]

Slow your roll there Ragnor! No one is trying to rebuff you in any way shape or form! Clays suggestions and statements are on the money and not intended to sound like a rebuff.

We can not tell you where to dig without seeing the area for ourselves. No one with any amount of real experience would even try. You need to do your testing to find the extent of the deposit and then figure out the most economical way to get the gold out of there. There are two reasons for this that come to mind right away. First, by mapping the deposit and determining the value of it you're protected in a court of law should the government want to take the area back for some reason. If you can't PROVE how much gold there is on the claim then you can't get paid for it in a takings case. You have to C.Y.A. at all times!!! Secondly, by testing you can then decide on which area is the best to start with and know what equipment would be best to get the job done. This falls under the old saying of "Let the terrain dictate the equipment". It will also save you money in the long run because you're not wasting it on stuff you don't need. The object is to get the gold out with the lowest overhead cost possible and thereby maximize your profits.

No one here is trying to make you feel dumb and please keep in mind that in reading a reply on a forum like this, you can't hear the tone of the voice like you can when talking to a person directly. What may seem like a rebuff may actually be intended to sound like friendly advice. That's one of the biggest drawbacks of the web so you have to be willing to give others the benefit of the doubt when it comes to things like this.

 

[Jeff95531]

Ragnor...if I had a claim, knew it to be gold bearing, I wold start with the known gold locations and fan out from there. 6 feet of overburden is a lot to move by hand and I wouldn't do it unless the gold led me there. And you are right...something that deep would overcome a 4' long post hole digger...meaning shovel/sample/shovel.

 

[spillercanyon]

Ragnor,

The amount of gold in the ore has to be weighed with the work needed to recover it. You may find that working the cracks and shallow deposits, even at a lower gram/yard ratio, may pay better because of the amount of material you can process versus having to slough off multiple feet of overburden to get to the pay streak, especially with hand tools. This could dictate where you start to test.

Good luck!

 

[AlienAmerican]

Ragnor, I don't think he was intentionally trying to be offensive. I agree with him 100%, no one on earth can tell you where to dig. You need to explore, sample, and internalize your area. Become an expert in it, sample here, sample there, then you can figure out a pattern to your area. Star with the basics, inside bends, cracks, etc. Then with enough sampling YOU will be the expert on your area.

 

[Clay Diggins]

I have not mapped the full extent of the deposit. That does not mean I have failed to established the existance of a valuable deposit. I don't really care to post the oz./ton figure here on this forum but I assure you I have run several yards of stream bank material and the averages are more than acceptable to establish the occurance.
Geological reports support my findings and I have discovered and recorded a valid claim. I would think any person of normal cognitive function could reasonably conclude that if you can reach down and grab a hand full of dirt with visible gold in it over a 1000 foot long exposure the presence of a valuable deposit could reasonably be established in the mind of a sain and prudent individual.

My question is simply what is the best method to quickly pinpoint the areas that deserve my first best efforts and should it by my first priority.
It would seam that you strongly support the full sampling grid be carried out before exploring the sub surface topography.

I'm not sure the exact intent of your scathing rebuff. But I'll just assume it may somehow fall upon my best interest.
At any rate I assure you and all concerned that I have in fact established the presence of a valuable placer deposit and proven it and can reproduce my sample grades at will.

Now why not be strait with me. Should I just not discuss these matters of prospecting and mining on this prospecting forum?
Cause I was under the impression this might be a real good place to discuss that kind of information.
I kind of feel like the sinse is beating me in the head with the stick and I am not quite sure what my offence is.
Ive never learned real well by the beat with a stick method.

It rather gives me the impression that my corespondance on here is unwelcome or not in my best interest and I should just move on.

My response was genuine and sincerely intended to help you along your intended path Ragnor. If you ever see "scathing" from me you will have no doubt as to my intent. This was not "scathing".

I am not challenging the validity of your claim. Only the federal government can do that. You can say you have a valid discovery and I have absolutely no reason to doubt anything you have said. The real issue here is your desire to mine the deposit and to keep it should those feds decide they want to restrict you from mining. That's basic to most claim owners and it's just what my reply was directing you towards. Efficient mining with little likelihood of interference.

This isn't rocket science it's mining. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. The process and standards for discovery are well defined. It's not beating you up to suggest the next step is to follow those process and standards. It's what's done to mine a deposit. Expecting you to want to do what miners do is respect not an effort to beat you with a stick.

Without knowing the nature and extent of the deposit you might as well be mining with a blindfold. Looking randomly across your claim for possible concentrations of gold is prospecting not mining. It doesn't matter if you do it "logically" by looking for certain material or terrain or if you use dowsing rods. Random samples only prove whether you were lucky or unlucky that day.

You've found gold - good, the next step is to figure out how much and where. If you can't prove how much gold is there and how much it will cost to mine, transport, refine, market and restore the mined area you haven't proven a discovery. The prudent man rule isn't about whether you think it's a good place to mine it's about whether you can prove to industry standards that it is mineable at a reasonable expectation of a profit. It's not whether there is gold on the claim that makes a valid discovery - it whether the cost of mining is less than the value of what you intend to mine. Both value and expense must be factored in for a valid discovery. That requires regular systematic testing of the whole area.

So what proof do you have on paper of the nature and extent of your deposit? Do you really believe mineral examiners use the "normal cognitive function" standard to judge the marketability of a deposit? I hope you understand that once a challenge is issued, due to a closure order, all discovery work must stop. Your proof will already have to exist in a verifiable paper trail. At that point gold you have already recovered becomes proof that at one time your claim had some valuable minerals on it - it is not proof of a current valuable mineral deposit. Gold that has already been mined is not proof there is more gold that could be mined. You will have to prove your discovery if you want to avoid the big bad wolf. You don't need to do any of this to prove to me or other prospectors that you have a valid claim.

Start with a big grid - maybe 300 ft. Then grid sample at smaller fractions within each of those grids always recording the amount and nature of the gold and associated minerals on paper in a logical repeatable manner. You don't need yards for this type of testing, half gallons or less will do nicely. Some areas may end up being gridded as fine as 10 foot if you will be mining by hand. If you are challenged it's these testing results that will be in the spotlight, make them accurate and repeatable. Document the process as well as the results.

If a grid doesn't show any mineable values keep that grid result in your calculations as part of the proof but stop gridding at the next level. Concentrate on finer grids only in those areas that show the best results. When you are done with all the grid testing you should end up with a map of the extent of the actual mineable deposit with calculated averaged values for each grid portion. Then you will have the answer to how much the deposit is worth. That's half the discovery equation.

Now that you know the extent of the deposit you can move on to the nature of the deposit. You will have learned a lot of this part during your testing.

Are there other mineable minerals, is the material easy to process with local methods or will you need custom equipment or offsite processing, is there a lot of difficult overburden, is the deposit stratified horizontally or is it scattered, do you have room to efficiently mine and rehabilitate an area while you begin the next? All of this and more will have to be considered before you can come up with a good mining plan that assures you a profit. The nature of the deposit, in good part, determines the expense.

You are going to have to define equipment and methods at this point and calculate expense. The best mining method will have to have a reasonable possibility of being approved at your particular site. Permitting expense, or what the expense of avoiding permitting is, should be part of your paper calculations. Part of the expense side of the discovery equation is the cost of testing. Not including testing expenses shows a lack of understanding of the nature of discovery work. Book your time and expenses as carefully as your sampling and you will sail through any challenge.

Good proof of discovery puts you in the category of "as good as patent". Anything less and you may find yourself dancing with the devil in administrative "courts" for years to come. That scenario wouldn't be much of a probability if you were in the Arizona desert but having your claim on a restricted waterway in an area already of interest to the greenies puts you at much higher risk of being challenged.

If you approach this as a valid mining project and do the proper discovery proof your mining efforts will me much more productive and profitable, you will learn more about the mineralization in that area and you will have a valuable marketable claim that will retain it's value whether you mine it, sell it or leave it for your ancestors.

Heavy Pans

 

[Ragnor]

Thank you for spelling it out for me, that is the information I was after.