Deep-sea team may lose treasure

[West Jersey Detecting]

A judge said Floridians should give the roughly $500 million to Spain. The battle is not over.

By Mitch Stacy
Associated Press

TAMPA, Fla. - Florida deep-sea explorers who raised an estimated $500 million treasure from the 200-year-old wreck of a Spanish galleon should give all the loot back to Spain, a federal magistrate judge said.
But the two-year tug-of-war over the 17 tons of silver coins and other artifacts from what is believed to be the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes y las Animas is likely far from over.

Odyssey Marine Exploration said it would oppose Wednesday's written recommendation by U.S. Magistrate Judge Mark Pizzo, which will be considered by another federal judge who will issue an order later.

Odyssey chief executive officer Greg Stemm said yesterday that the company was prepared to keep fighting.

"This case addresses some very significant legal issues," Stemm said, "so in the beginning it became fairly clear it was going to go to the appellate court level."

Pizzo's written recommendation said the wreck was almost certainly that of the Mercedes, a navy galleon that sank in the Atlantic Ocean west of Portugal in 1804. He accepted the Spanish government's argument that it had never expressly surrendered ownership of the ship and its contents.

Odyssey has argued that it still lacks conclusive proof of the ship's identity and disputed the Spanish government's ownership of the valuable cargo.

"We are very happy," Spanish Culture Minister Angeles Gonzalez-Sinde said yesterday. "This decision is very important. I am glad the judge has really seen that the ship and the treasure belong to Spain."

Odyssey created an international stir when it announced in May 2007 that the 500,000 silver coins and other artifacts had been raised from an Atlantic Ocean wreck and flown to Tampa. Spain then went to U.S. District Court claiming ownership of the treasure if it is in any way connected to the country's national heritage.

 

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[ivan salis]

thats one judges "ideal" its not a "final" order just what he "thinks" should happen legally in his veiw you can count on a "appeal" to a higher court . --which Odyssey's legal team counted on I'm quite sure -- except -- they thought spain would be the "appealer" rather than them. -- so its very far from over, count on it .

this is a heavy weight legal boxing match -- and its just round 1 which goes to spain "on points" ---but as we all know in the courts just like in the boxing ring --you can win all the early rounds but if you get knocked out in the last round -- you lose the fight.--- so its who's left standing in the end that counts .

 

[Shtrider728]

Why has no-one brought forth the point that the treasure was looted from someone else? Why give it to the looters? Spain looted so much treasure and distroyed so many valuable works of art and science that Sapin should be sued and forced to pay reparations to the decendants of the victims of who-ever it was they tortured,murdered,raped and generally terrorized to get the treasures the sought.....To hell with the Spainish!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Shtrider728]

Please forgive my typing errors,the real point is...how many lives were distroyed? Someone should send the Florida treasure hunters this message....What is it? Over 300 years in the ocean and no efforts to recover it? Can anyone say abandonment? and why give it back to the looters? Don't steal...The Government Hates Competition!!!!!

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

Why has no-one brought forth the point that the treasure was looted from someone else? Why give it to the looters? Spain looted so much treasure and distroyed so many valuable works of art and science that Sapin should be sued and forced to pay reparations to the decendants of the victims of who-ever it was they tortured,murdered,raped and generally terrorized to get the treasures the sought.....To hell with the Spainish!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bolivia has also staked claim to the treasure, claiming it was stolen from them.

 

[Jeffro]

So has Peru- One point that hasn't made much attention is the judge's basis for his "decision" in this case. He is convinced this ship is the Mercedes.

It goes something like this- The Mercedes was known to have been carrying a disproportionate amount of gold to silver coins. This ship was carrying a disproportionate amount of gold to silver coins. So this ship must be the Mercedes.

I believe even a fourth grader can see the flaw in logic.

 

[MoTwister]

Categorical logic will get you into trouble every time. All dogs are mammals! All cats are mammals! there for all dogs are cats?

 

[ivan salis]

high flawed logic to say the least --- the mercedes was carrying more gold than silver coins of a certain year mix --- and sank in that "rough" general area -- these "found" coins are more gold than silver by nature thus they must be from the "mercedes" . the mercedes was a spanish govt "naval" vessel in the judge's veiw thus "it can not be claimed for salvage"

ok -- with no other sort of archie type solid "proof" of what vessel it actually was -- the judge is "assuming" * that because the gold to silver ratio of the coins and amount coins found that its the mercedes * (assume--to make a A$$ out of yoU and ME) on should never assume anything in a court of law on the "facts" as proven should be admitted-- one should not "think" one should "known" in court of law --I think means nothing , I know for a fact does.

the way the mercedes is discribed as "blowing" up means very very little to nothing "remains" of it even remotely intact from a archological stand point --its been utterly blown to bits -- all thats left is a few cannons and the treasure both of which being very heavy sank -- the bodies were like wize "shreaded" by the blast I'm sure leaving little if anything behind to find .

and thats if it was the "mercedes" -- now the only thing left of it is her "cargo" -- yep I said "cargo" and cargo it is ---the ships manifiets clearly shows that the coins onboard where being carried as "cargo" on board the vessel (thus while the vessel" might be a govt ship --the cargo is "private" property"-- the "personal belongings of private individuals" being transporeted as "private property" on the govt vessel --- thus its not "part of the vessel" like the hull is --- it just " private cargo" in the ship --- the ship is one thing --the cargo it carries is another --ask any "shipping" insurance agent --they "insure" them apart" from one another

odyssey did not break thru the spanish govts vessel (mercedes) hull to get to the coins ( because there was no hull there being the mercedes was "blown to bits" when she sank )-- nor did they in any meaningful way "do any damage" to the site ---deep sea fishing trawlers do more harm by far than odyssey --and the courts are not going to stop them from working there are they? no they are not -- odyssey just picked up a highly valuible batch of "private cargo" laying on the ocean floor -- maybe it could have came from the mercedes true theres a good chance it did (but even if it did --the vessels own manifest clearly shows that it was "private cargo" not govt funds --that were being transported)-- plus theres no 100% solid proof that it is the mercedes ---(because the vessel is "gone" --blown to bits --with only the coin "cargo" left ---and that "private property" as per the ships manifest belongs to the "heirs" of those that shipped it is fairly well established by law ( and those who shipped the money is clearly spelt out in the manifest)-- thus its not the spanish govt's money in any case.

 

[Salvor6]

Well that must NOT be the Mercedes because there was very few gold coins recovered by Odyssey. The majority of the coins are silver.