Denied access to woods.

[Tom_in_CA]

Giant 056, I have to laugh when I hear that response from people "no thanx, we're going to get a metal detector and do it ourselves someday". Because you know they never will get around to it. And even if they did, they wouldn't know what they were doing, and the detector ends up in the closet.

Solaryellow, I don't think anyone on this thread was being rude, in their responses, to you. You just put out a topic, and people were giving their views.

You say: "So even public land is questionable" Since when? Public land (schools, parks, etc...) is not questionable. As long as they're not obvious historic monuments. I hunt public places all the time and don't have a problem. But ironically, if you ask, you might find someone up the ladder to tell you "no", when in fact, no one cared until you asked. I mean, if you think you have to ask to hit a public park sandbox, you are merely casting aspursions on yourself, as if there were something inherently wrong with you, or this hobby, that you had to ask to begin with.

But back to the original topic: Un-fenced, un-posted, remote forests: As I understand the law, if it is not fenced or posted, there is nothing enforceable. I know a guy who had a vacant lot, that he turned into a vegetable garden. One day he caught some guys stealing veggies, so he got their licence plate #. He called the police, but the police explained that since he didn't have the lot posted, they could do nothing about it. So guess what the man did? He posted the lot "no trespassing". Quite honestly, he didn't care if someone took a shortcut path through his lot or whatever, but he just didn't want anyone to be taking his veggies, so he had to put a sign there, to make it enforceable.

 

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[solaryellow]

I spent 2 hours at the town hall checking for the owners on that property.
I agree, if you look hard enough you will find the owner who had it at some point.

I traced it back to 1800's, to some of my towns first early settlers.

We also have abandoned or old roads that have disappeared into the woods, that still show up on maps as town roads.



Also, I think I know why developers won't let you hunt.

Here in my town, Indians ruled the land, and there are a bunch of artifacts to be found.
Just not by me yet
And we had spent $45 million on a new school, on this piece of Indian land.
The dozers uncovered some Indian artifacts and guess what, delay delay delay...
So maybe they don't want us finding things that might cause public outcry and long bulding delays..

Oh well. i'm over this............

 

[watercolor]

When a property owner receives a nice letter requesting permission to MD their property, they don't generally respond 10-seconds after they receive your letter. I'm guessing that this woman had some time to think, or have her response to you influenced by other relatives. Therein lies the dilemma.

She/they may have thought "What in the world does he think is buried out there. . . treasure?" Then, all of sudden, they become very protective. Maybe this property has been in their family for generations and there were "family rumors" of a hidden cache buried by a previous generation. . . you never know.

You did the right thing by asking her permission to MD, but maybe the wrong way. Face-to-face with your son in tow or a phone call to her may have resulted in a more favorable outcome for you and your son. . . less time for her mind to run wild and think about the treasures you may find. . . just my thoughts.

It's human nature to want something even more when you are told you can't have it. . . don't be discouraged, sometimes the most promising looking places to MD are where you'll be skunked

 

[teverly]

Giant 056, I have to laugh when I hear that response from people "no thanx, we're going to get a metal detector and do it ourselves someday". Because you know they never will get around to it. And even if they did, they wouldn't know what they were doing, and the detector ends up in the closet.

Solaryellow, I don't think anyone on this thread was being rude, in their responses, to you. You just put out a topic, and people were giving their views.

You say: "So even public land is questionable" Since when? Public land (schools, parks, etc...) is not questionable. As long as they're not obvious historic monuments. I hunt public places all the time and don't have a problem. But ironically, if you ask, you might find someone up the ladder to tell you "no", when in fact, no one cared until you asked. I mean, if you think you have to ask to hit a public park sandbox, you are merely casting aspursions on yourself, as if there were something inherently wrong with you, or this hobby, that you had to ask to begin with.

But back to the original topic: Un-fenced, un-posted, remote forests: As I understand the law, if it is not fenced or posted, there is nothing enforceable. I know a guy who had a vacant lot, that he turned into a vegetable garden. One day he caught some guys stealing veggies, so he got their licence plate #. He called the police, but the police explained that since he didn't have the lot posted, they could do nothing about it. So guess what the man did? He posted the lot "no trespassing". Quite honestly, he didn't care if someone took a shortcut path through his lot or whatever, but he just didn't want anyone to be taking his veggies, so he had to put a sign there, to make it enforceable.

Well we have had this discussion 100 times and you keep telling people if it is not posted just do it.Maybe where you are it has to be posted ,but here in Ohio if you dont own the private property and you go on it without permission,you can be sited for trespassing.
And people wonder why it gets harder to hunt private property

 

[MD Dog]

I think Tom in Ca has this one right. I personally don't ask if they havn't already made their property off limits through postings or other signage. Asking can give people time to think or worse yet, to ask around. Now if they were asking around about me personally, and were asking people who know me and have seen my MDing techniques that would be great. But we all know that's not what happens, they have already either heard a horror story or someone will tell them one, about so n so who did this or that. I'd rather take the chance of being confronted, A.) it usually just ends with a not so polite request to leave, or B.) a police officer called into inform them all they can do is tell me to leave and inform them if I return at which point I'll be cited for tresspass. I know I'll catch alot of heat for this posting but the truth is treasure hunters and MDers already have a bad rap that isn't going to go away any time soon. The reasons are two fold, I dare say that most of us are law abiding respectful good people, but even the very few bad apples have ruined that for us and it doesn't need to be the current crop of bad apples. One gent told me no because as he recounted his horror story I surmised a few things, first he wasn't speaking first hand, he was recounting a story as best he could recollect it told to him by some so n so. And that it had occured some twenty something years ago. But since it was told to him by so n so it was gospel and that was that. So I just recently decided my position on this was that my life was too short to right the wrongs of others, If I see a potentially good local and it ain't posted or otherwise made un available I'll hunt it. BTW my lawyer was consulted before I made this descision, he assured me that tresspass here is no worse than a traffic ticket, criminal tresspass was if I was caught on land that was posted or I had already been invited to leave or told it was off limits. Criminal tresspass is a misdemeanor punishable by a fine of up to $5,000 dollars and 1 year in jail. But my lawyer assures me you'd have to be a seriously habitual offender to get more than a fine. And I don't believe I'll be arrested anytime in the future, once told to leave I would and I won't go back.

 

[teverly]

Well like i said i have been at this 12 yrs and i checked on the laws here in Ohio,And im speaking only of ohio.
I have been told by landowners that have checked and then i checked.If you do not have permission to be on the property you are tresspassing.Period.Posted or not.....
And who defines what habitual is?? not your lawyer..so if they catch you 2 or 3 times and say your habitual then is it worth 5,000 or possibly a year in jail??
And our image may not get any better due to a few bad apple but if people keep telling newbies to just do it,then our image WILL get worse.....

 

[MD Dog]

first habitual, is defined within the laws, second the maximum punishment would be a $5,000 fine and or a year in jail, like I stated in my post youd have to be the worst habituall offender to get both or even one, the more likely scenario for a first time offender or even a second or third time offender would be fines of $50, $100,$250 etc... And lastly if 99.99% of MDers are already good law abiding do the right thing people why do still yet have such a bad rap ? I'll tell you why because the one bad act of one bad person becomes the justification to label us all forever as bad apples. We won't change that in a million years, this is the same descrimination that many have faced in this country since it was founded. I have alot of friends of color whom I deeply love, yet I also have other freinds who won't associate with these (colored people) because of what happened to a so n so some two hundred years ago !

 

[Siegfried Schlagrule]

She didn't want you to dig up the body. siegfried schlagrule

 

[teverly]

first habitual, is defined within the laws, second the maximum punishment would be a $5,000 fine and or a year in jail, like I stated in my post youd have to be the worst habituall offender to get both or even one, the more likely scenario for a first time offender or even a second or third time offender would be fines of $50, $100,$250 etc... And lastly if 99.99% of MDers are already good law abiding do the right thing people why do still yet have such a bad rap ? I'll tell you why because the one bad act of one bad person becomes the justification to label us all forever as bad apples. We won't change that in a million years, this is the same descrimination that many have faced in this country since it was founded. I have alot of friends of color whom I deeply love, yet I also have other freinds who won't associate with these (colored people) because of what happened to a so n so some two hundred years ago !

We still have abad rap because people like you keep telling newbies and everyone it is ok to trespass and like everything else the more bad people see that is what they focous on.And the excuse that it wont change anything because thats the way it is not an excuse.
Also habitual is not defined in the law.It does not say if you do this 4 or 5 times you are a habitual whatever.Repeat offender is more than once..and the judge will use there discretion....
And what if that land you are on turns out to be a part of a state park that is not postedAsk your lawyer if ignorance of the law is an acceptable defense.....i bet he/she says no it is not.
From personal experience the people that have told me no,have told me it was nice of me to ask but to many people had tresspassed and they did not want just everyone walking onto there property.So the would not let anyone on.A few ruined it for the rest.Point being if the others had asked there would not have been any problems....
My parents always taught me if it isnt yours dont touch or use it till you ask...

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Teverly, no one can dispute that technically, you are right. I mean, yes, technically, you can't go 56 mph in a 55 mph zone. Technically, if you find a dime in a payphone change slot, it belongs to Pacific Bell. Technically, everytime you stoop to dig a target, you are supposed to call the utility company to make sure there's no underground buried lines there, etc.. But we're talking about remote woods, unposted, un-fenced, etc... not someone's front yard, hopping fences, etc... It's a matter of do you really think anyone cares? I just don't think people lurk in hunting platforms to shoot at trespassers on their vacant lot, or at the back acre of their 10000 acre farm, nor do I think they care. Actually, the opposite mostly happens: a farmer comes up and says "any luck"? (we have a lot of row crops here where I'm at, and you can pull over to the side of the road anywhere and just walk out in row crops, orchards, or whatever).

Yes, I realize that technically, we should be fearful of consequences that are so remote, so as to be ridiculous. But I guess I favor the side of being realistic, rather than fearful. At some point of caution, you would be relegated to your own front yard "lest someone be mad at me"

 

[MD Dog]

We don't have a bad rap because of what I'm saying here to others of a like mind IE; MDers. Also I never said any newbie should trespass, what I said was If it isn't posted then it isn't trespassing, By law or by me ! Also the law does define habitual here in n.y. It is defined as a person who repeatedly breaks the the same law more than three times or the same type of law more than three times, it's all encompassed under the three strikes law I'm sure you've heard of. And your naive to think that our actions will change public opinion that has been set for a very long time. I've been at this since I was a child with never a moments thought but to do the right thing, always going out of my way to pick up trash and litter, return lost jewelery whenever possible, never trespass etc... Yet the public opinion of MDers was bad in the seventies and it hasn't changed one iota since. And anyone who enters onto a federal park unwittingly would be a dimwitt for sure, Since all federal lands including the (publics) parks are completely surrounded by fencing and or signage.
And your story of being told no only enforces what I'm saying. I'm tired of being told no because of our bad rap that I played no part in establishing. Think of it this way if those peopl had no signes as the law requires then it wasn't that important to them to keep others off their proprty, only the people like you who asked ahead of time. So now you have no choice, while others who don't ask can still detect with the only threat being told to leave since they have no (NO TRESPASSING) signage.

 

[Calworks]

Old saying goes, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission

 

[julesjunk]

I was turned down on a Colonial fort site that is slated for destruction (it'll be a housing "development" next year). The reason they gave me was that they didn't have the liability insurance to cover me on the site. What a stupid world we live in......

BB, I used to do some work at TVA power plants. You had to have 5 mil of insurance on your head just to walk onto the property. My insurance agent found a policy, and it wasn't that expensive. I wonder if that would work in your situation? I'm going to check into it for myself, as I have a construction site that's getting ready to tear down 70 homes, all built in the teens and twenties. Same situation........... "liability issues".

 

[diggummup]

She didn't want you to dig up the body. siegfried schlagrule

I had that in the back of my mind too.

BTW- Tom in Ca. and anyone else who prefers not to ask for permission to hunt on someone else's private property- I understand you've been at this a very long time and that you prefer to detect first and worry about the consequences later, however I will continue to ask first if there is any question as to me potentially trespassing on someone's private property and I will urge others to do so as well. After all it is written in the Detectors code of conduct. Anything less would be and is criminal. BTW- schools in this state are fenced off and signs are posted "No trespassing" as are all construction sites and just about every empty lot in the tri-county area down here, also it is illegal to dig in county parks and state parks (unless it is a beach park). So your opinion of these public "lands" as not being questionable is just that, opinion. None of these places I listed are "historic monuments". Not everyone lives in Cali-for-ni-a where anything goes,literally.
Signed, diggummup
down in the police state of Florida
with all of its draconian laws.

 

[l.cutler]

If you removed a valuable coin from someones property, even if it is remote woods, without asking permission to detect, you may be guilty of more than just trespassing.

 

[Ascholten]

Old saying goes, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission

Is that why they give you a phone call from jail... to ask for forgiveness?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ascholten, no one "goes to jail" for walking on unfenced unposted remote land.

Diggummup, I don't think CA has any less retrictive laws than other states. That is to say, if you or I asked enough questions, of enough bureaucrats here, I'm sure they'd tell you you can't do all sorts of things technically. Ie.: there are stated penalties for doing all sorts of things anywhere. The question here is not one of technicalities (I've already conceeded they can't be debated), it's a question of "does anyone really care?"

We've got a section of town where I'm at, known as "Chinatown". It is the few-block area of homeless folks, soup kitchens, shuttered buildings, etc.... But back in the turn of the century, it was lively section with bars, brothels, opium dens, markets, etc.... As time went on, buildings got knocked down d/t fires and such, and it didn't pay to rebuild them. So now, there is a patchwork of vacant lots, that are totally abandoned. These lots just become home to the homeless, who set up cardboard shelters. Shortcut paths criss-cross them, trash all over, and there are no signs. My friend and I found out that if a person shovelsby the sidewalks a few inches to get below the wino caps and modern debri, we can find seateds and barbers (because these would have been the steps area to old board and batton buildings). One day we got the wild idea that we could accomplish much more by getting a bobcat tractor, and scraping the whole lot So we went to the assessors office to find out the actual owners. We found that some were city owned, d/t taken over for lack of tax payments decades ago. But the city too lets it rot d/t the area is not economically viable to build in. Some other are actually still owned, but by someone in another town hours away from here (grandkids of the original owners?). We abandoned the idea of doing our own tractor scrape, but the only reason I bring this up is, this is an example of no one caring. No, it does not pass the "technicality test", just as you or I shouldn't take that well worn shortcut path through the lot. We should walk around the entire block, right?

So once again, it's a matter of "does anyone really care?", not "what are the technicalities?"

 

[teverly]

You are right the question is who will care and apparently you do not.
OH, and fence hopping as you put it is fence hopping wether or not the fence is there or you are in the middle of nowhere or in town..IF IT IS NOT YOUR PROPERTY YOU DO NOT HAVE FREE RUN OF IT.
And since new people to this forum and detecting read this and you are saying dont ask just do it you are telling/infering to them to break the law, period.No technical to it.Does not matter wether or not you can go to jail or just be told to get off my property.
As diggimup stated we have a code of ethics and we should all follow them.
So as i have said before on this subject we will have to agree to disagree....

 

[Carson Coin Master]

I had been MD'ing around an old schoolhouse near me, and saw a wooded lot across the street from it, and heard the school kids back in the 1880's played their.

Were talking 10 acres of woods, dirt, no grass, moderately dense with trees.
Turns out it is someone's property, so being a good citizen I write a nice letter explaining how my 8yo and I, look for coins as well as clean up any garbage at the sites we visit.
We hauled a lot out in that area too.
I asked if it would be ok to detect there, promising there would be no evidence of being there, and that we would continue to clean up as well.

I received a phone call from the lady owner, who said thanks for the nice letter, but No way and absolutely not!
There is no reason for you to be in there at all, and sorry can't do it..
I understand people have a right to say no, but this response was far from pleasant and sounded very harsh for the request I made.
Oh well, so much for playing nice.....

I think next time I come to a questionable location, I will just take a chance.
This was the first time I ever asked anyone for permission to hunt a property.
So far I'm discouraged.
I even offered anything I found to them if they wanted it, I enjoy just hunting for the stuff, and I already have donated revolutionary artifacts to historical society's before, so much for being honest I guess...

you should read my story of what happend to me about a week ago when i had a gun pulled on me for asking permision. i think it just depends on the person.

 

[Green1]

solar,, don't take any of this to heart,, you hit on a touchy subject here is all,, it'll start wars on a forum, i waqs involved in one and never even saw the property....

there's another spot down the road,, that's one of the best things about this hobby !!!!