Descendants of sunken treasure ship passengers fight Odyssey for coin clump

VOC

Sr. Member
Apr 11, 2006
484
190
Atlantic Ocean
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
[h=3]Descendants of sunken treasure ship passengers fight Odyssey for ‘£1 million coin clump’ in Gib court[/h]by Dominique Searle

Gibraltar is to witness a new twist in the wake of the multimillion dollar battle between Spain and Odyssey Marine Exploration.

Descendants of passengers on Nuestra Señora de las Mercedes, a Spanish vessel that was shot and sank off the Algarve in 1804, are saying they have a right to a possible £1 million stash of coins held locally.

Odyssey called the Mercedes ‘Black Swan’ and flew the bulk of the treasure away to Miami where, after a four year legal battle, it was released by the US courts and shipped back to Spain last month.


The US had decided that the vessel was indeed the Mercedes and that the Spanish state had full rights to the vessel and its contents under a Foreign Sovereign Immunity Act. That argument was hotly contested by Odyssey as well as several South American countries and the descendants of people who had private cargo on board.

Last Thursday, acting for six descendants and in a ritual required by the courts, Daniel Feetham assisted by Chris Allen of Hassans walked into a bonded warehouse in the Port of Gibraltar and physically attached an Admiralty claim form to buckets of encrusted coins. These are estimated to be between 700 and 1,200 that were recovered from the cleaning out of Odysseys deep water equipment. This happen after the bulk of the find had been jetted out from Gibraltar airport one dawn to Florida in 2007.

With the coins, that have been held here since 2007, are some minor artefacts to which the descendants make no claim.

HM Customs Gibraltar blocked the Odyssey from taking these coins with them after the main haul had been taken, apparently disputing some of the formalities.

CLAIMANTS

The claim now made against Odyssey may seem as exotic as some of the claimants’ names – from Peru Adela Armida de Izcue, Flora Leonor Perales Calderon, Enriqueta Pita Duthurburu, Felipe Gregorio Voysest Zollner, Rafael Fernandez de Lavalle and, from Colombia, Mathilde Daireaux Kinsky de Guzman - but it will pose the question as to whether or not the Spanish Government will itself join in the action to claim what it has so far asserted is its property.

There were unconfirmed rumours during the Miami Court hearings that the US Government had not put obstacles ahead of Spain’s action in exchange for Spanish support for enhancement of US military interests in bases in mainland Spain including Rota.

Ironically the fact that most of the treasure is held by the Spanish government will mean that the small cache in Gibraltar is more rare and could hold a higher market for these unique coins minted in Peru from local gold and silver.

One of the key points being argued by the descendants is that although the vessel was flying the Spanish flag the commercial and private property on board, some 106,672 silver coins of the 600,000 gold and silver coins recovered by Odyssey, should not be caught by the sovereign immunity rule.

The point is argued that the Mercedes sank off Portugal in international waters and never made it to Spain or Spanish waters. The claimants want a ruling from Gibraltar’s Admiralty Court that the coins here are their property or that they have an equitable right to share in their value.
 

OP
OP
VOC

VOC

Sr. Member
Apr 11, 2006
484
190
Atlantic Ocean
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Odyssey has released the container; it is the Admiralty court that is now legally holding it.

Gibraltar is not breaking any Spanish Law as in Gibraltar the authorities can do what they want with these items. The Spanish government might rule Spain but that is where their jurisdiction stops.

They can appeal to other nations and use their court systems etc, but that is where it stops.
 

JT

Full Member
Mar 14, 2005
202
52
Johns Island, South Carolina
VOC;2737810 With the coins said:
Interesting.

Spain fought to reclaim their "cultural heritage", which proved to only be coins...since they didn't want the "minor artifacts".

Now these alleged descendants want their "cultural heritage" back too...not minor artifacts, just a money grab.

This seems to shoot a hole in the celebration of Ossy and Alexandre of Spain's regaining their "cultural heritage"...sems like they're as big a pirate as anyone else.

It's all about the Benjamins...
 

Panfilo

Sr. Member
Feb 20, 2007
250
17
Battle for sunken treasure reaches Gibraltar
By Roland Lloyd Parry (AFP) – 12 hours ago
MADRID — A court battle over treasure from an old Spanish shipwreck has reached Gibraltar, where descendants of the sunken cargo's owners are fighting to win back part of the booty from Spain.
The British-administered territory has been drawn into a tangled squabble between Spain, US treasure hunters and the Latin American descendants, in a case harking back to the days of the Spanish empire.
Mathilde Daireaux Kinsky, an Argentinian who lives in Colombia, says part of the cargo of the Nuestra Senora de las Mercedes, sunk by the British in a sea battle in 1804, belonged to her ancestor Diego de Alvear y Ponce de Leon.
A Spanish general in the colonies at the time, he was not on board himself but lost his wife and seven of his children along with his precious coins in the shipwreck, Daireaux told AFP.
"We are not doing this for the money. We are seeking respect for the memory of our family members who died on board the Mercedes," said Daireaux, 49, one of six descendants claiming the treasure in the Gibraltar courts.
Odyssey Marine Exploration, a company that specialises in salvaging deep-sea wrecks, hauled the treasure -- mainly gold and silver coins mined and minted in the former Spanish colonies -- from the seabed off Portugal in 2007.
It transported most of the treasure via Gibraltar, a sunny British enclave at the mouth of the Mediterranean, to Florida, where the company is based.
A court in Florida last month let the Spanish government claim this share -- 23 tonnes of silver coins and other items, worth 350 million euros ($470 million) -- and fly it back to Madrid.
But several hundred more silver coins were left behind in a crate in a Gibraltar customs house, where they were blocked pending Spanish legal efforts to claim them, says Daniel Feetham, a lawyer acting for the descendants.
"The descendants have issued a claim in the Supreme Court of Gibraltar and there is an order from the court here preventing these coins from being taken out of the jurisdiction," said Feetham.
"We do not envisage a hearing for some time."
Spain is demanding that the coins in Gibraltar be handed to Madrid too as national heritage.
"A lot of people wrongly think that these goods are important because it is money. No, this is all Spanish historical and cultural heritage," said a source in the culture ministry who asked not to be named.
"Our wish is that as many people as possible be able to enjoy it."
The US courts ruled that all the treasure belonged to Spain under sovereignty laws, but the claimants insist the ship was on a commercial mission carrying their ancestors' property.
"There is a lot of case law that says that where a sovereign ship is travelling on a commercial mission, the cargo is not subject to the principle of sovereign immunity," said Feetham.
To claim the last of the treasure, Spain would have to fight for it in a Gibraltar court, a prospect complicated by diplomatic sensitivities between London and Madrid.
Spain ceded Gibraltar to Britain in 1713 but has long argued it should be returned to Spanish sovereignty. Britain refuses to renounce sovereignty against the wishes of Gibraltarians.
Odyssey says it is being prevented from handing over the last coins in Gibraltar to Spain because Madrid blocked them from being shipped to the United States in the first place.
"We have been attempting to organise the release of these artefacts to Spain in compliance with the Florida judge's order, but the situation is very complicated," a spokesperson told AFP.
"The case lodged by the descendants has added another layer of complexity. Odyssey has always acted legally and will do everything possible to abide by any court's orders."
Two centuries after the British navy sunk the ship, drowning their ancestors along with the treasure, the descendants are pinning their hopes on a court on the British territory, said one Colombian claimant, Rafael Mariano Fernandez De Lavalle.
He says Spain never made good on promises to compensate his ancestor, Jose Antonio De Lavalle y Cortes, who lost hundreds of silver coins he had sent to Spain aboard the Mercedes.
"We will fight in Gibraltar to our last breath and we have faith in its justice system," Fernandez De Lavalle said. "Contrary to what people in Spain might think, this case is not over."

AFP: Battle for sunken treasure reaches Gibraltar
 

Alexandre

Bronze Member
Oct 21, 2009
1,047
435
Lisbon
Odyssey has released the container; it is the Admiralty court that is now legally holding it.

They can appeal to other nations and use their court systems etc, but that is where it stops.


Maybe they can use the Spanish Inquisition...


 

AUVnav

Sr. Member
Mar 10, 2012
455
86
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!
 

old man

Bronze Member
Aug 12, 2003
1,773
1,709
East Coast
How come no Country ever fights over implements that changed through the ages, like eating instruments, navigation tools etc... It's always about money. Never about what it should be about ?? History:skullflag:
 

AUVnav

Sr. Member
Mar 10, 2012
455
86
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Actually, they have and are....the Elgin Marbles are a good example.

300px-Elgin_Marbles_British_Museum.jpg

Elgin Marbles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and the Rosetta Stone

rose_lg.jpg
 

Last edited:

seadancer1

Greenie
Nov 12, 2008
13
0
Greed and politics always wins in the end.....wonder when the descendants of the Atocha passengers start putting their hands up!
 

bigscoop

Gold Member
Jun 4, 2010
13,376
8,702
Wherever there be treasure!
Detector(s) used
Older blue Excal with full mods, Equinox 800.
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Oh what a tangled web they weave. Most of this wealth was lost and abandoned by those who possessed it. But leave it to all the courts and politicians to screw that simple truth into one complicated web after another. :dontknow:
 

AUVnav

Sr. Member
Mar 10, 2012
455
86
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
wonder when the descendants of the Atocha passengers start putting their hands up!

Well, that is certainly a multi-headed beast.

First off, there would be the issue of Sovereignty of the 1715 fleet. There is case law that supports claims of sovereign states and shipwrecks, some of which is very specific to Spanish Treasure ships.

The descendants would likely have to battle in a Spanish Court, to determine if their predecessors had been compensated for their loss back in the early 1700's

It is much more likely that Spain, coming off a fresh win in the Florida, US District and US Supreme Courts, will file on what they would perceive as Spanish property.

I am very curious what the people working off of the Florida Coast are thinking right now about all of this. The Spanish have stated all of their wrecks are off limits. While the State of Florida may have issued permits, is everyone thinking that they will get to keep anything Spanish? For me, I would be very nervous expending any time of resources until it get sorted, but I am not involved in that area.
Thoughts?
 

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Top