discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrLs

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

JP---

Then there is also the Desert Trumpet Plant, which thrives in areas containing gold.

I don't know if it's known whether the plants are attracted to the gold itself, or other associated things present.

This has been reported for mineral deposits only, not ingots or coins.

 

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[Rudy(CA)]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

It seems to me that in order for the compound to be "smellable", they would have to be volatile. Does anyone know of
a naturally occurring volatile compound of gold?

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

JP---

Then there is also the Desert Trumpet Plant, which thrives in areas containing gold.

I don't know if it's known whether the plants are attracted to the gold itself, or other associated things present.

This has been reported for mineral deposits only, not ingots or coins.

Hi EE THr,

I don't know about that one either.
My feeling about plants that grow in those areas are they are not normal plants. Normal plants don't grow so well in mineralized areas. They like soil that is rich in organic materials and plenty of overburdon. When I see plants growing in a mineralized area, I think of them as the kind of plants generally considered to be weeds that can survive where most normal plants can't. Maybe that means gold, or maybe not. Of course, the photographers for Arizona Highways won't agree with me about any of this.

I would think some of the forum readers are out training their dogs to smell gold by now.
Hmm... maybe some of them are...

Best wishes,
J_P

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

It seems to me that in order for the compound to be "smellable", they would have to be volatile. Does anyone know of
a naturally occurring volatile compound of gold?

Hi Rudy,

I can smell the smell of cyanide in a cyanide treatment plant. The smell is not strong, but I think a dog or a machine could smell it better.
In my example above, you will not be able to smell any gold compound because the gold becomes a metallic gold molecule by combining with itself by the time it reaches the surface. What you would look to smell are the molecules it was combined with before it left them and neutralized just below the surface. In order to locate the gold, you would locate the molecules you suspect the gold was chemically combined with when it was deeper. And you must choose chemicals which are unique to gold, because this is the only indicator that gold was there.

The known chemicals are cyanide which is produced by bacteria, low molecular weight organic acids which are produced mostly by plant roots and decaying organic matter, and sulphur complexes which suspend the gold ions during their migration. We would be looking for the remnants of these molecules after the gold has left.

I would expect the cyanide is mostly not volatile, but probably a small amount of sodium or potassium cyanide salt could become airborne. I would also expect small traces of the cyanide would become hydrogen cyanide, and become airborne where it could be smelled. I don't think this would be in toxic amounts, but probably would be smellable by a dog or a machine. This cyanide is produced by bacteria which establish colonies when they find a metal to attack. Only a special kind of bacteria that thrives in toxic environments will grow a colony here, which means any anomaly in the cyanide is an indicator of buried metal. The problem is it is not only for buried gold. It could mean platinum, copper, iron and a quite a few other common metals. I suppose you would need to use your intuition to determine what kind of buried metals are expected to be found in the area.

More likely to be on the volatile side are the organic acids associated with gold. These would not necessarily indicate gold, because they are in the soil whether gold is present or not if you have the necessary decaying organic matter or plant roots. but in combination with the cyanide, these give evidence there is one transport/suspension medium in the soil.

Then there are the sulphur complexes. Gold is not suspended only in sulphur complexes. It can also be suspended in other complexes such as arsenic, antimony, and others, depending on what's in the soil. I don't think it's possible to predict what you will find left over at the surface after the gold has left the complex. I think you would find a number of salts which represent what was under the ground.

It seems to me this is where the research is needed to identify what exactly remnants of this gold ion transport and chemistry is found at the surface, and what we can count on finding that most reliably indicates gold is there. As far as the volatility, I am thinking that even a salt will be smellable considering most people can smell the salt air when they come from an inland area to an ocean beach. Even if there is no salt mist in the air, I would think the normal humidity in the soil is enough to release some aquatious salt molecules from the ground into the air where a dog could smell it. If this is so, then the organic acids and HCN would be much easier to smell than the salts.

When I review this smelling gold idea, it is beginning to look like maybe there are easier ways without all this troubling research. I am wondering if it isn't easier to let the dog figure out what he needs to smell to find gold. Then give him a really big reward when he gets it right. And if that doesn't work, look for a different way to find long range detection.

Best wishes,
J_P

 

[Rudy(CA)]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

It seems to me that in order for the compound to be "smellable", they would have to be volatile. Does anyone know of
a naturally occurring volatile compound of gold?

Hi Rudy,

I can smell the smell of cyanide in a cyanide treatment plant. The smell is not strong, but I think a dog or a machine could smell it better.
In my example above, you will not be able to smell any gold compound because the gold becomes a metallic gold molecule by combining with itself by the time it reaches the surface. What you would look to smell are the molecules it was combined with before it left them and neutralized just below the surface. In order to locate the gold, you would locate the molecules you suspect the gold was chemically combined with when it was deeper. And you must choose chemicals which are unique to gold, because this is the only indicator that gold was there.

The known chemicals are cyanide which is produced by bacteria, low molecular weight organic acids which are produced mostly by plant roots and decaying organic matter, and sulphur complexes which suspend the gold ions during their migration. We would be looking for the remnants of these molecules after the gold has left.

I would expect the cyanide is mostly not volatile, but probably a small amount of sodium or potassium cyanide salt could become airborne. I would also expect small traces of the cyanide would become hydrogen cyanide, and become airborne where it could be smelled. I don't think this would be in toxic amounts, but probably would be smellable by a dog or a machine. This cyanide is produced by bacteria which establish colonies when they find a metal to attack. Only a special kind of bacteria that thrives in toxic environments will grow a colony here, which means any anomaly in the cyanide is an indicator of buried metal. The problem is it is not only for buried gold. It could mean platinum, copper, iron and a quite a few other common metals. I suppose you would need to use your intuition to determine what kind of buried metals are expected to be found in the area.

More likely to be on the volatile side are the organic acids associated with gold. These would not necessarily indicate gold, because they are in the soil whether gold is present or not if you have the necessary decaying organic matter or plant roots. but in combination with the cyanide, these give evidence there is one transport/suspension medium in the soil.

Then there are the sulphur complexes. Gold is not suspended only in sulphur complexes. It can also be suspended in other complexes such as arsenic, antimony, and others, depending on what's in the soil. I don't think it's possible to predict what you will find left over at the surface after the gold has left the complex. I think you would find a number of salts which represent what was under the ground.

It seems to me this is where the research is needed to identify what exactly remnants of this gold ion transport and chemistry is found at the surface, and what we can count on finding that most reliably indicates gold is there. As far as the volatility, I am thinking that even a salt will be smellable considering most people can smell the salt air when they come from an inland area to an ocean beach. Even if there is no salt mist in the air, I would think the normal humidity in the soil is enough to release some aquatious salt molecules from the ground into the air where a dog could smell it. If this is so, then the organic acids and HCN would be much easier to smell than the salts.

When I review this smelling gold idea, it is beginning to look like maybe there are easier ways without all this troubling research. I am wondering if it isn't easier to let the dog figure out what he needs to smell to find gold. Then give him a really big reward when he gets it right. And if that doesn't work, look for a different way to find long range detection.

Best wishes,
J_P

Hmm, I wonder if there are such compounds that would not react similarly with Cu or Ag, as they do with Au.
Then again, with the current price of Cu, or Ag it wouldn't matter if you couldn't discriminate between them and Au.

Your right, a couple of bags of Friskies to train the dog might be better .... or maybe some table scraps and a pig?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Gentlemen : you are now coming around to what I had in mind originally. WHAT frequency
is it that you wish to detect. As you see, standard electronic data isn't necessarily applicable

J_P is right on the ball, so is EE curiously enough snicker

(apol EE but couldn't resist)

As for cyanide, J_P you are one of the few people, outside of my self, that I know of that
can detect it. interesting.

I was sensatized by being careless and having a bit of Cyanide poisoning, I can now smell an open
canister of cyanide up to 20 meters under the right conditions and breeze. I have won a few bets
because of this. To me it is sickly, sweet smell, very uncomfortable.

So, do we develop a device that will do it all by itself, or one that a trained and sensitive operator can utilize?

Don Jose de La Mnacha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

hi again: a simple experiment that you can do and learn how the human can do so called
impossible things, and to realize just how broad our discussion can / will be, is to simply go to
a quality paint store and ask for 2 chips each of the primary colors, plus black and white.

Cut them to the same size and shape. You will now have 10 squares. Arrange a space, such
as under your desk where there is a level area, but that you cannot see it. shuffle the squares
out of sight, then spread them out . Now by isolating a square, try by gently and lightly
stroking it, looking for any reaction, such a slipperiness or roughness etc.

You may not be successful at first, but quickly you will feel a different reaction from each color
and can accurately identify them by this difference in tactile effect.

It can also be done with your nose, cheeks, lips. or elbows.

This in itself is interesting in that it suggests that we are a mass of basically unused sensors or
areas that can be trained as sensors.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Obviously hypnosis can be used to hyper intensify these reactions or to speed up the learning process.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Rudy, you posted -->It seems to me that in order for the compound to be "smellable", they
would have to be volatile. Does anyone know of a naturally occurring volatile compound of gold?
*************
Just what are volatile compounds or elements other than frequencies? Incidentally, you already
can identify many compounds and metals by their basic odor. Try it.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Rudy(CA)]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Rudy, you posted -->It seems to me that in order for the compound to be "smellable", they
would have to be volatile. Does anyone know of a naturally occurring volatile compound of gold?
*************
Just what are volatile compounds or elements other than frequencies? Incidentally, you already
can identify many compounds and metals by their basic odor. Try it.


Don Jose de La Mancha

We were discussing the smelling of compounds, like dogs and pigs can do DJ. For this the compound must be volatile.
It is not a frequency thingie. It's the ability of molecules of the compound to float in the air so they can enter the nostrils.

What frequency is your nostril tuned to?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

HI Rudy, you posted -->For this the compound must be volatile.
It is not a frequency thingie. It's the ability of molecules of the compound to float in the air so they
can enter the nostrils
************
may I suggest that 'yes' they, the molecules, 'are' a frequency. As for how an individual molecule frequency manages to 'float around' in a mass of others is something that I haven't thought on . Fascinating, the next time that I have a bit of a problem in dropping off to sleep I will have to think on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Judy?? PBSR#1, is it possible that swr has no sense of humor? Odd, since he loves to jump on
someone else? As for his definition of what a lie consists of sigh. I have already been the
recipient of that definition.

As for the tinklies, sheehs blushing. he doesn't need them anyways.

I had rather forlornly hoped that he would enter into the discussion with some original ideas
since he really isn't an idiot, but actually fairly smart but disorientated.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Insults aren't humorous.

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Gentlemen : you are now coming around to what I had in mind originally. WHAT frequency
is it that you wish to detect. As you see, standard electronic data isn't necessarily applicable

J_P is right on the ball, so is EE curiously enough snicker

(apol EE but couldn't resist)

As for cyanide, J_P you are one of the few people, outside of my self, that I know of that
can detect it. interesting.

I was sensatized by being careless and having a bit of Cyanide poisoning, I can now smell an open
canister of cyanide up to 20 meters under the right conditions and breeze. I have won a few bets
because of this. To me it is sickly, sweet smell, very uncomfortable.

So, do we develop a device that will do it all by itself, or one that a trained and sensitive operator can utilize?

Don Jose de La Mnacha

Hi Mr. Don,
A device that will do it all by itself is the coolest thing to have. The current generation of sniffers run on a 9v battery and fit in your pocket. They take no training... simply turn them on and put them in the air you want to snif. If they beep, it means you found the substance your had it set for.

But I doubt a treasure hunter would use that method due to cost constraints. Since Homeland Security has made selling these sniffers a lucrative business if they are calibrated to explosives, nobody spent any research money on setting them up for treasure hunting. So the price is high, and the treasure hunter is poor in comparison. This leaves us with the less cool method of teaching the dog to find buried gold. Or if you want to be sort of cool, you could teach a pig to find gold. But it seems it might be hard to try to explain to a pig exactly what you want him to find for you. Maybe it would be a little easier to try to explain it to a dog.




Best wishes,
J_P

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

EE, it depends entirely upon the context and intent, I could say "hi ee, ya ole s.o.b ". and you would laugh knowing that while technically an insult, it was really a compliment, indicating that we were close friends.

As for swr he has his own loong list of insults that he has give an accounting for 'before' he can legitimately complain, so relax. However, it is a comradely type of an insult, not a nasty, direct one., simply because I consider him a friend, despite our differences in here, which is really a game.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Rudy(CA)]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Gentlemen : you are now coming around to what I had in mind originally. WHAT frequency
is it that you wish to detect. As you see, standard electronic data isn't necessarily applicable

J_P is right on the ball, so is EE curiously enough snicker

(apol EE but couldn't resist)

As for cyanide, J_P you are one of the few people, outside of my self, that I know of that
can detect it. interesting.

I was sensatized by being careless and having a bit of Cyanide poisoning, I can now smell an open
canister of cyanide up to 20 meters under the right conditions and breeze. I have won a few bets
because of this. To me it is sickly, sweet smell, very uncomfortable.

So, do we develop a device that will do it all by itself, or one that a trained and sensitive operator can utilize?

Don Jose de La Mnacha

Hi Mr. Don,
A device that will do it all by itself is the coolest thing to have. The current generation of sniffers run on a 9v battery and fit in your pocket. They take no training... simply turn them on and put them in the air you want to snif. If they beep, it means you found the substance your had it set for.

But I doubt a treasure hunter would use that method due to cost constraints. Since Homeland Security has made selling these sniffers a lucrative business if they are calibrated to explosives, nobody spent any research money on setting them up for treasure hunting. So the price is high, and the treasure hunter is poor in comparison. This leaves us with the less cool method of teaching the dog to find buried gold. Or if you want to be sort of cool, you could teach a pig to find gold. But it seems it might be hard to try to explain to a pig exactly what you want him to find for you. Maybe it would be a little easier to try to explain it to a dog.




Best wishes,
J_P

JP, pigs are actually pretty smart. During the training phase, just show them a pound of bacon and make them understand the price of failure.

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

A device that will do it all by itself is the coolest thing to have. The current generation of sniffers run on a 9v battery and fit in your pocket. They take no training... simply turn them on and put them in the air you want to snif. If they beep, it means you found the substance your had it set for.

But I doubt a treasure hunter would use that method due to cost constraints. Since Homeland Security has made selling these sniffers a lucrative business if they are calibrated to explosives, nobody spent any research money on setting them up for treasure hunting. So the price is high, and the treasure hunter is poor in comparison. This leaves us with the less cool method of teaching the dog to find buried gold. Or if you want to be sort of cool, you could teach a pig to find gold. But it seems it might be hard to try to explain to a pig exactly what you want him to find for you. Maybe it would be a little easier to try to explain it to a dog.




Best wishes,
J_P

JP, pigs are actually pretty smart. During the training phase, just show them a pound of bacon and make them understand the price of failure.

Well that settles it. A pig it is!

Errr...
Suppose the pig actually finds treasure.
Will he then be exposed to forum insults?

Best wishes,
J_P

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

HI Rudy, you posted -->For this the compound must be volatile.
It is not a frequency thingie. It's the ability of molecules of the compound to float in the air so they
can enter the nostrils
************
may I suggest that 'yes' they, the molecules, 'are' a frequency. As for how an individual molecule frequency manages to 'float around' in a mass of others is something that I haven't thought on . Fascinating, the next time that I have a bit of a problem in dropping off to sleep I will have to think on it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hi Mr. Don,

Molecules are not frequencies. They are collections of atoms bound together which are associated with various characteristic frequencies. But frequencies have nothing to do with smelling a molecule. The mechanism of smelling involves recognizing a pattern of atoms as they are arranged in a molecule. In particular, we are looking for a characteristic pattern of how different atoms are arranged so as to be recognizable, similar to the way the shape of a jigsaw puzzle piece has a pattern that will fit only in its place. The smell sensors work in a manner not much different than the jigsaw example. An animal's nose has many different "jigsaw puzzle" receptor cells with molecules of an exact shape and pattern, waiting for a matching molecule to float in and fit exactly to this pattern -- same as how only the exact shape jigsaw puzzle piece will fit in it's place. When this matching molecule floats in, it can fit the receptor exactly, and attaches. This immediately sets off the smell sensor for that particular kind of molecule that happened to fit, and we smell it. Molecules that float in which do not match the pattern for that smell sensor cannot attach, so they continue moving on through the nose to other kinds of smell sensors until they find one they will fit to. In some cases the incoming aroma molecules don't fit to any of the smell sensors, and they eventually are breathed out without being smelled. So we could say we couldn't smell anything for certain kinds of smells or aromas.

When a molecule does attach to a smell sensor, it will cause the smell sensor to go off and make a signal that we recognize as smelling a particular smell. The molecule is eventually purged from the smell sensor so it can be used again to sense that same smell another time later. We can note that not all animals have the same kind of noses. Some noses are much more sensitive in general, while others are more specialized for particular kinds of smells. The human species seems less sensitive than most lower mammals, which may be necessary for a species which does not spend most of his waking hours foraging for food. But the lack of sensitivity is easily offset by a better use of brain power to utilize the information from the things we can smell. Another noteworthy item about smelling is that some airborne aromas can temporarily or permanently prevent the smelling mechanism from working. An example is when you blow some ammonia into a dog's nose, he will not be able to find the faint scents he usually can for about a fifteen minutes or so. This is because the ammonia has molecules that set off and overload alot of the sensors in his nose. And it takes awhile to purge it. We could say the noise has temprarily increased at the location where the smells are being sensed. Or that the sensors have been temporarily numbed so they don't respond to the weak signals. But if the dog breathes an acid mist from the air, it could destroy a good number of his smell sensors, causing permanent damage to his smelling.

Best wishes,
J_P

 

[Rudy(CA)]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Well that settles it. A pig it is!

Errr...
Suppose the pig actually finds treasure.
Will he then be exposed to forum insults?

Best wishes,
J_P

I am afraid he could be exposed JP. Worse, Judy could take his ..... organ? .... and hang it on her rear view mirror.
She seems to like doing that.

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

[mod]Members Please Refrain
from Posting long Unbroken
Lines of These ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

or anything Else

They spread the Threads, causing
us to have to Scroll Right & Left
to read treads.

Or hit Quote.

In the future My remedy
just may be deletion of the Members Posts,
or Entire Threads

Jeff[/mod]

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

~~~snicker~~~

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

hi again: a simple experiment that you can do and learn how the human can do so called
impossible things, and to realize just how broad our discussion can / will be, is to simply go to
a quality paint store and ask for 2 chips each of the primary colors, plus black and white.

Cut them to the same size and shape. You will now have 10 squares. Arrange a space, such
as under your desk where there is a level area, but that you cannot see it. shuffle the squares
out of sight, then spread them out . Now by isolating a square, try by gently and lightly
stroking it, looking for any reaction, such a slipperiness or roughness etc.

You may not be successful at first, but quickly you will feel a different reaction from each color
and can accurately identify them by this difference in tactile effect.

It can also be done with your nose, cheeks, lips. or elbows.

This in itself is interesting in that it suggests that we are a mass of basically unused sensors or
areas that can be trained as sensors.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Obviously hypnosis can be used to hyper intensify these reactions or to speed up the learning process.

Hi Mr. Don,

I tried your experiment, and it didn't work for me. But I didn't use color samples from a paint store because I know the texture of different sample chips are subtly different unless they were made from the exact same batch of the same color. And this subtle difference in texture could allow us to feel a difference, and give us an unfair advantage.

Instead, I got a piece of printer paper and cut it up into 2-inch squares. I wet all the squares and put a different drop of food coloring on each square. The color drops spread out and colored the entire square of paper on both sides. When all the squares were dry, I could tell the dyes were absorbed into the paper fibers, and they did not form a coating of pigments bound in resins over the top of the paper fibers. So I felt the different colored samples probably have the same texture of paper fiber cut from the same page.

I tried to determine the color using various fingers and thumbs, nose, and elbows as you suggested, but I could tell no difference except when I used my eyes to examine them. It makes me wonder if I am abnormal for not being able to tell the difference, or if telling the difference involves feeling a subtle difference in the texture.

Best wishes,
J_P