discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrLs

[aarthrj3811]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

He J.P…This conversation is about stuff that is way above my knowledge level. I have located gold using at least 9 different frequencies or what are just numbers to me..5.13..3.025..462.5625 ( a CB radio channel)..5.7…1.5185..1.729…428.13…and plain old numbers…353 and 4951…Some will pick up all types of gold..Some tend to locate to much micro gold…Some pick up the rings around gold objects..Some will pick up rays from gold..Yes I am still looking for the perfect frequency ..Art

 

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[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

He J.P…This conversation is about stuff that is way above my knowledge level. I have located gold using at least 9 different frequencies or what are just numbers to me..5.13..3.025..462.5625 ( a CB radio channel)..5.7…1.5185..1.729…428.13…and plain old numbers…353 and 4951…Some will pick up all types of gold..Some tend to locate to much micro gold…Some pick up the rings around gold objects..Some will pick up rays from gold..Yes I am still looking for the perfect frequency ..Art

Hi Art,

The stuff you read in my post means it seems pretty impossible that nuclear magnetic resonance is the principle that explains how an LRL could work.
The technical stuff explains a lot of reasons why it can't be NMR. But I posted only half the reasons I know of so I could save space.

Keep in mind, this is not a proof that LRLs can't work, it is only evidence that if they work, then they don't work using the principle of NMR.
My personal feeling is that if LRLs can work, then they must work on a different principle than NMR, because too many fatal problems have been identified that prevent NMR from locating things buried. Even the numbers you use are far away from the actual NMR frequencies of buried gold which are only found between 22 Hz and 45 Hz.

if we look at your earlier post, we see you asked "Could it just be that the inventor is using a different theory"?
And Mr. Don answered you saying this:

HI Art. you posted -->.Could it just be that the inventor is using a different theory ?...Art
**************
Yes, or perhaps he didn't really understand what he was working with, and attempted to define it
with the knowledge that he was familiar with, which would be workable under the circumstances,
yet be completely incorrect..

I think Mr. Don said early on what I explained above in technical terms....
Maybe the inventor didn't get the theory part right. Maybe it just seemed right to him at the time.


Best wishes,
J_P

 

[Rudy(CA)]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Hi Oroblanco,

The nuclear magnetic resonance of buried gold is not in the megahertz range.
This frequency of 1.729 MHz is an artificially modified frequency that scientists publish and use only when they place gold samples in a very strong magnetic field in a laboratory.

<Rest of excellent analysis deleted for brevity>

Great job JP. I think we can also eliminate Dr Hung's preferred method of ionic detection of long time buried gold using LRLs claiming to have an ionic chamber of sorts, on the basis that the vapor pressure of gold is such that one could not possibly capture a gold ion with a hand
held artifact purporting to contain an ion chamber, simply because there is no gold vapor present.

What do you think?

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Hi Oroblanco,

The nuclear magnetic resonance of buried gold is not in the megahertz range.
This frequency of 1.729 MHz is an artificially modified frequency that scientists publish and use only when they place gold samples in a very strong magnetic field in a laboratory.

<Rest of excellent analysis deleted for brevity>

Great job JP. I think we can also eliminate Dr Hung's preferred method of ionic detection of long time buried gold using LRLs claiming to have an ionic chamber of sorts, on the basis that the vapor pressure of gold is such that one could not possibly capture a gold ion with a hand
held artifact purporting to contain an ion chamber, simply because there is no gold vapor present.

What do you think?

Hi Rudy,

I think you may be right, but there is more homework to do before we can rule this one out.

To start, we would need a more accurate rendition of what was claimed. The LRL manufacturer says some pretty specific things about his "ion chamber" and the principles under which it works. If you read the details closely, they are not exactly about vapor pressure, or even capturing a gold ion. It only seems that way because of the way forum posters explained it. If you want I can get the archives of exactly what was claimed.


Best wishes,
J_P

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

The one MFD that I read about, said that their "ion chamber" sensed and indicated certain types of ions which entered their ion chamber.

But what is commonly called an ion chamber, in the real World, is a sealed unit, and the ions are already inside of it. The chamber detects and indicates greater activity of those ions already in it. The increase in activity of the contained ions is due to radiation. They are used as radiation detectors!

An ion chamber is not an "ion detector."

The so-called ion chambers in LRLs are also sealed units, so how can ions "enter the chamber" on these? Also, there is no sensing device attached to the LRL chambers, so how could anything be detected, even if these "certain types of ions" could enter their sealed chambers?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

J__P wrote

The nuclear magnetic resonance of buried gold is not in the megahertz range.
This frequency of 1.729 MHz is an artificially modified frequency that scientists publish and use only when they place gold samples in a very strong magnetic field in a laboratory.

Well my sources disagree with you on this, and say flatly that gold has no resonant frequency, and one claims it is 5 khz.

J__P also wrote

Considering the fundamental frequency is buried in noise so it can't be measured until we increase the field 47,000 times, how can we expect to get a harmonic to resonate when it is even weaker, and is also an undefined frequency like the fundamental?

Picking out a discreet item from background is the basic problem of all treasure hunting and metal detecting. The whole idea of finding a resonant frequency is that you get an increasing volume due to the resonance, thus allowing it to be readily picked out of background clutter. A receptor circuit tuned to pick up the correct resonance, with some sort of directional ability then would suffice.

J__P also wrote

How can you keep your detector resonating at the correct frequency? Built-in magnetometer correction?
That might work, but remember how we have a really sloppy frequency where most of the gold atoms are not resonating at the calculated frequency?

This set of questions are based on the idea that gold has a variable resonant frequency, which I can not find any documentation to support.

J__P also wrote

Do you know of a human sense or practical man-made machine that can localize a sub-noise strength 37 Hz electromagnetic signal?
If so, will this method or machine work for anyone who wants to try it?

Actually this discussion did give me an idea for a device that would locate gold, silver and other metals relatively easily, at a much greater range than what is possible with metal detectors, however would also be quite dangerous to operate. It would not locate any electromagnetic signal but would work due to another reaction or attribute of metals. Yes it would work for anyone who would operate it, even a robot.

Another possible biologic detector which might be possible would be by turning to the animal world for assistance. Metals buried in the earth often slowly give off molecules into the environment, gold being not very chemically reactive so probably the least detectable, but it has been proven that dogs are able to detect quite tiny amounts of whatever they have been trained to detect; that they can be trained to detect non-biologic targets has been well proven by the bomb-sniffing dogs. I suspect that it would be possible to train a dog to find silver, copper or iron with a little patience and effort. This also would then work with anyone capable of handling the dog, even if blind.

If the idea of a functional LRL is not to be based on a resonant frequency, (whether then detected by circuitry or a human sense) what would be a plausible theory of operation? Thank you in advance.

EE THr wrote

The so-called ion chambers in LRLs are also sealed units, so how can ions "enter the chamber" on these? Also, there is no sensing device attached to the LRL chambers, so how could anything be detected, even if these "certain types of ions" could enter their sealed chambers?

As I understand it, in geiger counters the radiation source emanations <particles & rays> do pass through the ion chamber; not all of course but a percentage, and the radiation causes the ions in the sealed chamber to react and produce a tiny EM signal that is then detected and amplified to a level that the human operater can perceive either as a sound or as a rise in a gauge. For a LRL that has such an ion chamber, which then would depend on the gold or silver etc being a radiation source, seems a ridiculous theory of operation since most of these metals are not radioactive at all. As to how this would be detected when the chamber has no detection circuitry connected to it, the only answer I can think of is that they do not function. In theory there would be a way, without anything directly attached, if the ion chamber would itself be generating some sort of detectable EM signal due to the excitation of the ions in it, then the EM signal could be picked up by antenna/receptors set up to receive them etc but from what I can see on those examples online none have this ability.

Thank you again for the very interesting replies, and for giving me an idea that I may just have to try out if I can figure out how to do it safely. I hope you have a great day.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

good afternoon: It was posted -->At any instant in time, a photon has only one frequency
*********************
Nature does not operate in a static fashion. so this has no true basis, but it 'is' used for a series of static calculations which we later interpolate as a dynamic factor, which is useful, but not necessarily correct.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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It was also posted -->It's similar to the problem of hearing people whispering on the other side of a large, noisy room. If they are just talking normally, and the noise isn't very loud, you can do some filtering and noise canceling, and maybe pull out most of the conversation using a very directional mic.
****************
You are neglecting many physical factors involved in the action. In Peking there is a a structure in the center of the Universe in the Forbidden city. It is called the Temple of the Moon. It is a large circular area with a high wall, no ceiling, and one entrance. Opposite from the entry there is a small altar.

In the days of the Ming's, in a difficult case, a suspected criminal was forced to walk alone from the entrance to the altar, pray to his God and explain exactly what was the truth. In those days the praying was done audibly. The general populace could never understand how the high priest knew exactly what the suspect was saying to his god and so would judge him innocent or guilty., Since it was considered an impossibility for the Priest to hear a whispered conversation over 200 ft, away, it obviously was through some divine contact so the guilty never contested the Priest.

I spent several hours in there by myself and found that acoustics were fantastic, I could not only hear a pin drop from the altar to the entrance, but, incredibly, the structure actually physically amplified it .

That was an interesting period in my life. sigh, loved it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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It was posted -->.Isn't it a fair assumption to make that the brain, if capable of detecting a resonant vibration, would be detecting vibrations that were in the same frequency ranges that the brain itself operates within
************
Obviously correct, to a point, but also others far far removed from the basic ones. A simple super heterodyne radio 'may' be an excellent mechanical example of what is being discussed. It's basic circuitry is normally 455 - 6 kc. yet it receives signals in the multi megacycle ranges and by simple mixing produces the 455-6 frequency that is useable. What isn't known is 'is this necessary' , can the brain receive and process selected frequencies above it's basic ones directly on it's own...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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It was also posted -->What about this ring in a jewelry store? What nature of a signal are we to be sensing
**************
It is simply because we are receiving the various gold frequencies directly, and possibly indirectly at the same time, through our primary frequency antenae, our 'eyes'.
Since they are frequency sensitive, they can respond to the the various differences due to atomic construction. and modifications thus allowing us to differentiate between the different rings..

Don Jose de la Mancha

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

J__P wrote

Quote
The nuclear magnetic resonance of buried gold is not in the megahertz range.
This frequency of 1.729 MHz is an artificially modified frequency that scientists publish and use only when they place gold samples in a very strong magnetic field in a laboratory.

Well my sources disagree with you on this, and say flatly that gold has no resonant frequency, and one claims it is 5 khz.

J__P also wrote

Quote
Considering the fundamental frequency is buried in noise so it can't be measured until we increase the field 47,000 times, how can we expect to get a harmonic to resonate when it is even weaker, and is also an undefined frequency like the fundamental?

Picking out a discreet item from background is the basic problem of all treasure hunting and metal detecting. The whole idea of finding a resonant frequency is that you get an increasing volume due to the resonance, thus allowing it to be readily picked out of background clutter. A receptor circuit tuned to pick up the correct resonance, with some sort of directional ability then would suffice.

J__P also wrote

Quote
How can you keep your detector resonating at the correct frequency? Built-in magnetometer correction?
That might work, but remember how we have a really sloppy frequency where most of the gold atoms are not resonating at the calculated frequency?

This set of questions are based on the idea that gold has a variable resonant frequency, which I can not find any documentation to support.

Hi Oroblanco,
Can you name your sources which disagree with the fact that the nuclear magnetic resonance frequency of buried gold is not in the megahertz range, and say the NMR frequeny of elements are not variable when the magnetic field is varied?


Best wishes,
J_P

 

[hung]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

As I understand it, in geiger counters the radiation source emanations <particles & rays> do pass through the ion chamber; not all of course but a percentage, and the radiation causes the ions in the sealed chamber to react and produce a tiny EM signal that is then detected and amplified to a level that the human operater can perceive either as a sound or as a rise in a gauge.

About correct.

For a LRL that has such an ion chamber, which then would depend on the gold or silver etc being a radiation source,

No. The gold is not the radiation source, but the fields that are produced in the interaction added to the ions of gold itself in the electric field that is spanned as I said about 180 degrees and thus prone to be detected from vast distances provided the right weather conditions are adequate.

seems a ridiculous theory of operation since most of these metals are not radioactive at all.

Nothing to do with radioactivity.

As to how this would be detected when the chamber has no detection circuitry connected to it, the only answer I can think of is that they do not function.

Sorry, you are being naive. Have you ever saw the Mineoro's schematic to state this? I don't think so.

In theory there would be a way, without anything directly attached, if the ion chamber would itself be generating some sort of detectable EM signal due to the excitation of the ions in it,

Correct.

then the EM signal could be picked up by antenna/receptors set up to receive

The ion chamber in the Mineoro detector is made of PVC which contributes to electrostatics and the ions pass easily through it.
The ionic chamber creates the same kind of 'crash' in terms of phase and frequency that is happening in the 'phenomenon', the anomaly fields around buried gold. How exactly this happens I cannot tell you as I would probably be disclosing industrial secret.

but from what I can see on those examples online none have this ability.

Not only one but two manufacturers build LRLs that perfectly work on this principle successfuly. The Mineoro long range detectors and the OKM Bionic 01. The Bionic 01 besides an ionic chamber also features two sensors in paralel configuration.
As for the Mineoros, I have been using them for more than 5 years now with several and several detections of treasure, gold veins, gold nuggets, etc. Soon we will be using a Bionic 01 as well.

Thank you again for the very interesting replies, and for giving me an idea that I may just have to try out if I can figure out how to do it safely. I hope you have a great day.
Oroblanco

You're welcome.

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

hung-up;

The gold is not the radiation source, but the fields that are produced in the interaction added to the ions of gold itself in the electric field that is spanned as I said about 180 degrees and thus prone to be detected from vast distances provided the right weather conditions are adequate.

Nothing to do with radioactivity.

The ion chamber in the Mineoro detector is made of PVC which contributes to electrostatics and the ions pass easily through it.

The ionic chamber creates the same kind of 'crash' in terms of phase and frequency that is happening in the 'phenomenon', the anomaly fields around buried gold.

Anyone could say the same thing about a jar of peanut butter. Jeeze, Is there no end to your Science Fiction and Fantasy dream world?

Have you ever saw the Mineoro's schematic to state this? I don't think so.

Please post your referenced schematic.







Don't be a doof---show the proof!
P.S. When will you man-up and take Carl's double-blind test, and collect the $25,000.00?
ref: Are LRLs More Than Just Dowsing?

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

By the way, the Mineoro Ionic Gold Detector, model IGD2005, lists the Power Source as: A sample of the material to be detected.

No Joke.

There are no batteries or power of any kind to it.

Oh Happy Daze.

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

And the OKM Bionic 01 does actually use battery power, because it has a digital display. It claims to have two modes, one the ionic thing, and the other interacts with the bio-energy of whoever is holding it.

The ionic mode is for long range, and the bio-energy is for pinpointing.

Right.

 

[aarthrj3811]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

~EE~

And the OKM Bionic 01 claims to be powered by the bio-energy of whoever is holding it.
That way, they think they don't have to worry about the test of clamping it into a vise, and seeing if it will detect a moving target.
They didn't figure that you could clamp the handle in a vise, and still have someone provide their magic nano bio-energy by holding the part of the handle that wasn't clamped down. Oops!By the way, the Mineoro Ionic Gold Detector, model IGD2005, lists the Power Source as: A sample of the material to be detected.
No Joke.
There are no batteries or power of any kind to it.
Oh Happy Daze.

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

And I thought this subject went way other my head..What’s your excuse…Art

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

~EE~

And the OKM Bionic 01 claims to be powered by the bio-energy of whoever is holding it.
That way, they think they don't have to worry about the test of clamping it into a vise, and seeing if it will detect a moving target.

They didn't figure that you could clamp the handle in a vise, and still have someone provide their magic nano bio-energy by holding the part of the handle that wasn't clamped down. Oops!

By the way, the Mineoro Ionic Gold Detector, model IGD2005, lists the Power Source as: A sample of the material to be detected.

No Joke.

There are no batteries or power of any kind to it.

Oh Happy Daze.

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

And I thought this subject went way other my head..What’s your excuse…Art

The Specifications lists: "Power Source - A sample of the substance to be detected."

The "Power Source" specification lists battery types for some of their other equipment which actually use batteries.

So what's your problem, con-artie?





P.S. What good is an antenna on an alleged ion detector?







Don't be a doof---show the proof!
P.S. When will you man-up and take Carl's double-blind test, and collect the $25,000.00?
ref: Are LRLs More Than Just Dowsing?

 

[aarthrj3811]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,291642.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,350899.0.html

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It was also posted -->What about this ring in a jewelry store? What nature of a signal are we to be sensing
**************
It is simply because we are receiving the various gold frequencies directly, and possibly indirectly at the same time, through our primary frequency antenae, our 'eyes'.
Since they are frequency sensitive, they can respond to the the various differences due to atomic construction. and modifications thus allowing us to differentiate between the different rings..

Don Jose de la Mancha

Hi Mr. Don,
According to the definition of receiveng, we are not receiveing various frequencies of gold. At least not NMR frequencies, for several reasons:
1. No signal is receivable in any medium if it is below the noise floor where we are trying to receive it, by definition.
2. If a signal was above the noise floor, then we would need suitable equipment to receive the signal before we can receive it. In this case we are wanting to receive an electromagnetic signal at around 40 Hz. What biological equipment do we have that could do that?
3. The sensors in our eyes are not responsive to any electromatic signals in the 40 Hz frequency range. Their sensitivity begins at hundreds of terahertz, and is only responsive to electromagnetic signals which are strong enough to see, not extremely tiny and dim images and buried in other blinding light all around it.

Your example was this question:
"Does an object give off a detectable energy and how can we separate a single gold ring in a jewelry store full of them of different alloys, using this inherent energy / frequency?"

In your example of a ring in a jewelry store, the detectable energy from a ring is visible light energy, not NMR energy. The way we recognize a single ring in a jewelry store is by seeing it, mostly through making the distinction that it projects a different pattern or shape than other rings. But let's take a special case of your example where things get harder. Suppose the jewelry store sold only one style ring. All are the same exact size with no ornamentation and identical in every way except slight variations in the alloy. Now we can no longer see any difference in the shape of the rings. The only visual difference is the color. It would still be possible to make a distinction of the single ring if a person was good at recognizing the exact color among a lot of similar colored rings. But the human ability to resolve different colors is limited. The human eye has the ability to see about 10 million colors if the light is bright enough to see them. Since visible light spans about 300 THz, the smallest variation in light frequency we could possibly see is 30 MHz variation. If we selected a person who was abnormally good at making distinctions of colors, then maybe this person could see the difference between two colors that are 15 MHz apart. This is still nowhere near the 37 Hz NMR frequency for the gold in the ring.

But none of this is applicable to treasure hunting or LRLs because it requires we see a visual image of the object in order to make the distinction. This is not something that could happen in a treasure hunting scenario where a ring is buried under the ground.
To put it simply, visible light is not something our eyes can sense from objects that are buried under the ground, and NMR is not something our eyes can sense at all. Nor do any other sensors on our body have an ability to sense a 37 Hz electromagnetic wave that I know of.

For this reason, I would conclude I have not heard any example of an energy signal coming from a ring at a jewelry store that has an application in LRL theory or even an application in treasure hunting.

Best wishes,
J_P

 

[EE THr]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,291642.0.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,350899.0.html

Sorry, con-artie, but video just don't cut it as proof of anything. Even in your link, SWR debunks it. Besides what SWR showed, what is the guy doing with his left hand?

Video isn't proof.









Sorry for diverging from your topic, RDT, but the other side of the story is part of the story, too!

 

[Rudy(CA)]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

good afternoon: It was posted -->At any instant in time, a photon has only one frequency
*********************
Nature does not operate in a static fashion. so this has no true basis, but it 'is' used for a series of static calculations which we later interpolate as a dynamic factor, which is useful, but not necessarily correct.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That is a nonsensical statement DJ. I presume you have proof of your conjecture?

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

J__P wrote

Hi Oroblanco,
Can you name your sources which disagree with the fact that the nuclear magnetic resonance frequency of buried gold is not in the megahertz range, and say the NMR frequeny of elements are not variable when the magnetic field is varied?

There are several online. Can you provide some source that claims otherwise?

Hung wrote

Nothing to do with radioactivity.

I beg to differ. How are the ions inside the sealed ion chamber to become in an excited state, unless affected by a radiation source? Thermally? You are mistaken here.

In fact this notion that buried gold is emitting a signal is something I don't accept on anyone's word. If the metal is actually emitting a signal, then it would be possible to detect it regardless of any "background noise" simply by holding the gold away from said "background noise" - yet even with an EM meter you do not detect any sort of EM signal being emitted by a piece of metal.
Oroblanco

 

[J__P]

Re: discussion on the various possible theories that may be applicable to LrL's

Well my sources disagree with you on this, and say flatly that gold has no resonant frequency, and one claims it is 5 khz.

J__P wrote

Hi Oroblanco,
Can you name your sources which disagree with the fact that the nuclear magnetic resonance frequency of buried gold is not in the megahertz range, and say the NMR frequeny of elements are not variable when the magnetic field is varied?

There are several online. Can you provide some source that claims otherwise?

Hi Oroblanco,

All of the sources say otherwise.
It is common knowledge for anyone working with NMR that the frequency depends on the magnetic field.
Check here to see all the sources: NMR FREQUENCIES
or check google for "NMR frequencies" to see all the sources.

This is why I am wondering about the several sources you referenced.
I have never seen these online sources that disagree.

Can you provide one of them?


Best wishes,
J_P