DO TREASURES HAVE REAL SPIRITS

[Crosse De Sign]

Go to ANY History museum and look at the items that were stolen from the graves of the Native People and then you may understand why I made the statement the way I did.

JRedHorse

Have seen a few, I see what you're saying
Some archaeologists discoveries are thought
to be for discovering, learning, preserving history.
Some have done excellent work, presenting evidences.

I realize there has been a lot of greed involved as well,
especially before laws were passed, and even since. I do
have mixed thoughts, tho also appreciate the awesome learning
value. A potential tool to help instruct of the ever continuing repetitions,
of mortal man's existence, however dark or light, corrupt or pure...

Thanks again, have any spirited stories, treasure tales?...

 

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[releventchair]

There are accounts of communal burials here. At timed intervals with gifts involved,some of which went into the burials.
Mounds not outright removed/destroyed have been dug. Some to pilfer ,others to study. Some not for burial.
I have been near but leave them be. Not my place or my peoples.
Have wandered the same river valley a couple three thousand years later and found that to be enough though a different sight for change of tree dominance and river damning. Pun intended.
Then last year when setting a crawfish trap,(looking to pull some foreign invader rusty crawfish) and fishing while waiting I became unhappy with the foreign invaders of zebra mussels damaging my line. Then started catching those foreign invader gobies. Looking towards the dam it occurred to me I was as much an invader.
Now ,history is what it is but I am at home outdoors. And here. My elemental origin is of this locales dust from time. No early native but a type of claim through birth of being from a particular area..of residence more than any right of inheritance of territory.
Would I pocket a worked lithic off a gravel bar rather than leave it for some one else to view like a flower? Perhaps. But no interest in wresting anything from a humans resting place when both were destined to be together. No fear of spirits; but one of crossing a line of no respect for strangers ways and traditions in hopes my dust or ashes float free unmolested in exchange. Should my flint and steel be placed with me , in my culture it would be more for who placed it than myself. But so? Some things should be left for their original intents sake. If not then everything,everyone,everywhere should be fair game? That would be chaotically interesting....

 

[Crosse De Sign]

There are accounts of communal burials here. At timed intervals with gifts involved,some of which went into the burials.
Mounds not outright removed/destroyed have been dug. Some to pilfer ,others to study. Some not for burial.
I have been near but leave them be. Not my place or my peoples.
Have wandered the same river valley a couple three thousand years later and found that to be enough though a different sight for change of tree dominance and river damning. Pun intended.
Then last year when setting a crawfish trap,(looking to pull some foreign invader rusty crawfish) and fishing while waiting I became unhappy with the foreign invaders of zebra mussels damaging my line. Then started catching those foreign invader gobies. Looking towards the dam it occurred to me I was as much an invader.
Now ,history is what it is but I am at home outdoors. And here. My elemental origin is of this locales dust from time. No early native but a type of claim through birth of being from a particular area..of residence more than any right of inheritance of territory.
Would I pocket a worked lithic off a gravel bar rather than leave it for some one else to view like a flower? Perhaps. But no interest in wresting anything from a humans resting place when both were destined to be together. No fear of spirits; but one of crossing a line of no respect for strangers ways and traditions in hopes my dust or ashes float free unmolested in exchange. Should my flint and steel be placed with me , in my culture it would be more for who placed it than myself. But so? Some things should be left for their original intents sake. If not then everything,everyone,everywhere should be fair game? That would be chaotically interesting....

I also see it as evidence in stone. Carrying on the sacred knowledge,
knowing the beliefs, actions, outcomes of previous cultures, societies.

To gain maybe some of the wisdom, from the learned of centuries gone
past. Often misunderstood, or even lost, by the carelessness and selfish
destruction of those that would take without giving the experience to who
the earth preserved it for...

...Modern man to ponder how he could get such a great treasured, fantastic
beautiful, pure simplistic life, so twisted around, the best evidence, from dirt,
back to the dirt. Spirit back to Great Spirit. Total simplicity, for some, seems
is very hard to get learned, even from seeing spirited mother nature herself...

Only the bones, various rocks and treasures left with the ancients' script.
Paintings, hieroglyphs, petroglyphs, pottery, location, type of lifestyle,
knowledge of weather patterns and geography, and such, can really
convey the material evidence of the true past, rather than just
someone's propaganda, or hearsay...

Perhaps the price, for the violation of the sacred is, will be repaid,
depending on the motive, power...

 

[JRedHorse]

As Native People we are left wondering at HOW old a grave must be before it is open and the contents put on public display, there are many "Institutes of Higher Learning" that refuse to return the bones of our dead.

We feel if it is NOT OK to dig up a grave 1 day, 1 month, 1 year or 1 decade old why is it OK to disturb a grave that is 500 years old, at what age is the gave "Open season"?

I would not dig up a white mans grave no matter what the age but for some reason modern scholar's seem to think that the person in the grave has no living descendants so it is ok to dig them up and make nice museum displays of our peoples bones, a lot like the Egyptian Mummies, they forget or ignore the fact that these are someone's blood line relatives.

I feel that 95% of MD'ers and relic hunters are honorable and wouldn't rob a grave but it is the other 5% that have done great harm to our Culture and traditions, I ask you all this, If your phone just rang and you were informed that YOUR Grand Parents graves were just opened and the caller was inviting you to come see them on display at the local Museum HOW would you feel?

I am very easy going but when it comes to the continued exploitation of my Ancestors and our way of life I can become very militant out of respect and love for my people.

 

[L.C. BAKER]

The slavery was horrific, and terribly wrong, but only part of the big picture.
Nothing new under the sun, when men find a reason, excuse to steal, kill, and destroy.
Or, to steal, kill, and destroy back, for vengeance, etc.

Do two evil wrongs, really ever make one good right?

Only if ye spirit really finds the hidden treasure, right? ...

Never in history that I know of, but we are human and that is just one of our flaws as a species. As far as the slavery issue goes, it was just another one of those flaws as a species I spoke of. The good thing is we adapted and overcome that flaw so there is still hope for us.

L.C.

 

[releventchair]

As Native People we are left wondering at HOW old a grave must be before it is open and the contents put on public display, there are many "Institutes of Higher Learning" that refuse to return the bones of our dead.

We feel if it is NOT OK to dig up a grave 1 day, 1 month, 1 year or 1 decade old why is it OK to disturb a grave that is 500 years old, at what age is the gave "Open season"?

I would not dig up a white mans grave no matter what the age but for some reason modern scholar's seem to think that the person in the grave has no living descendants so it is ok to dig them up and make nice museum displays of our peoples bones, a lot like the Egyptian Mummies, they forget or ignore the fact that these are someone's blood line relatives.

I feel that 95% of MD'ers and relic hunters are honorable and wouldn't rob a grave but it is the other 5% that have done great harm to our Culture and traditions, I ask you all this, If your phone just rang and you were informed that YOUR Grand Parents graves were just opened and the caller was inviting you to come see them on display at the local Museum HOW would you feel?

I am very easy going but when it comes to the continued exploitation of my Ancestors and our way of life I can become very militant out of respect and love for my people.

At what age is a grave fair game?
I have debated such in an archaeology course.
Personally I feel the dead should be left alone. If a science organisation wanted permission to exhume me and had my sound mind consent when alive that would be fine.
Those bones and relics that for rare reasons need relocating should be done by those who care for them in an empathetic way. Those who would uncover to learn, (if uncovering or molesting can be accepted) should be direct relation.
What was done in the past after a death mattered to those involved. Time does not change the cause of their actions. The very real emotions and beliefs and ceremony are still followed today with differences that do not void the past's respects.
It won't matter to me if I'm disturbed should burial follow. Kinda hope it would bother others though.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Not making allowance, or excuses. Personally, I'm an organ
donor, they can bury what's left after, if any were left usable.
Or, cremate remains, I used to think would be horrible.
Not any more. For part of me to give life to another,
that to my mind, would be beyond awesome, like
someone giving up one kidney, to provide life
for another, is almost incomprehensible.

I agree with what you folks have expressed.
Still lessons to be learned, if possible. If
my remains were of some benefit to be
studied, that to me would be awesome
too! Handled with scientific respect, of
course, just me personal view, with
all due respect for everyone's own
personal thoughts...

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Not making allowance, or excuses. Personally, I'm an organ
donor, they can bury what's left after, if any were left usable.
Or, cremate remains, I used to think would be horrible.
Not any more. For part of me to give life to another,
that to my mind, would be beyond awesome, like
someone giving up one kidney, to provide life
for another, is almost incomprehensible.

I agree with what you folks have expressed.
Still lessons to be learned, if possible. If
my remains were of some benefit to be
studied, that to me would be awesome
too! Handled with scientific respect, of
course, just me personal view, with
all due respect for everyone's own
personal thoughts...

Plan to donate & be cremated; made into a Healing Rattle, with ankle screws & metal "strip" in a "rebuilt" Rt. Ankle (after NASTY fall on Black Ice, years ago)...

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Plan to donate & be cremated; made into a Healing Rattle, with ankle screws & metal "strip" in a "rebuilt" Rt. Ankle (after NASTY fall on Black Ice, years ago)...

Not worried about any of that at all.
Just want to be all good, in spirit land.
A truly pleasant, and treasured place.

A healing rattle. Very interesting, yes.
Sounds cool and interesting.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Unfortunately for me, I can relate to the hardware aspect too, a little bit of titanium.
I guess they'd get it, rods, screws, plate, etc., afterwards. I would think it kinda'
strange, it they were to cut my skin, and get it out first. Not worried about any
of that at all. Probly not all that many people are like L.C., and take time to
visit cemeteries, etc., maybe not all that much, though some of us think
of our ancestors a lot. When I know I am at a special place, I feel glad
to get to be there, reflect, consider always, it is sacred to me, to know.

Just want to be all good, in spirit land, dimension. A true treasure place.
Don't know what temp that titanium melts at...
A healing rattle. Very interesting, yes.
Sounds cool and interesting.

Funeral home folks would take out screws, etc. & add to cremated "remains"; put in a "special" container designed by me, with "Secret Symbols" of Healing, etc. When "I" (HUMAN body) was in a coma, "special healers" came in & did their prayers, etc. I STILL have the RATTLE Stone, used by some Native People (1st Nation); it is what gave me the idea.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

As Native People we are left wondering at HOW old a grave must be before it is open and the contents put on public display, there are many "Institutes of Higher Learning" that refuse to return the bones of our dead.

We feel if it is NOT OK to dig up a grave 1 day, 1 month, 1 year or 1 decade old why is it OK to disturb a grave that is 500 years old, at what age is the gave "Open season"?

I would not dig up a white mans grave no matter what the age but for some reason modern scholar's seem to think that the person in the grave has no living descendants so it is ok to dig them up and make nice museum displays of our peoples bones, a lot like the Egyptian Mummies, they forget or ignore the fact that these are someone's blood line relatives.

I feel that 95% of MD'ers and relic hunters are honorable and wouldn't rob a grave but it is the other 5% that have done great harm to our Culture and traditions, I ask you all this, If your phone just rang and you were informed that YOUR Grand Parents graves were just opened and the caller was inviting you to come see them on display at the local Museum HOW would you feel?

I am very easy going but when it comes to the continued exploitation of my Ancestors and our way of life I can become very militant out of respect and love for my people.

I was shown very close to where an old Choctaw Chief was laid to rest.
This man would have to be a close direct ancestor of my family, and mine.
The Old Choctaws knew of the Ancient Hebrew, Levitical Priest's 12 courses
of Abijah. The Cherokees, of several if not all bands, know and practice
similar customs, festivals, as the Ancient Israelites.

They had lived in this land many long happy millennia, before the
Europeans came and took it. We supposedly have abolished slavery,
yet I've not heard of even the first Native American President. We
supposedly have religious freedom, yet it is persecuted more
continually. This has all been long bought and paid for, by
the blood and honor, of my Indian and also honorable White,
Great Fathers... Yet I cannot speak freely of these things.

In the spirit life, I believe the most considerate, willing to learn
and give, are qualified to be as priests, or servants, teachers
to the unlearned, for a millennium, of peace, from the bad
thoughts, continual temptations of the evil spirits...

 

[JRedHorse]

I salute ALL the opinions stated above because I can read the commitment in all your words.

I wish I could donate parts of me so that others may suffer less (as in organ donation) BUT, I was raised in a different culture, we want to arrive in the Spirit Lands WHOLE!

Why do you think the Warriors from my blood lines mutilated those we killed, it wasn't out of anger or revenge, it was simply because If we had to face them in battle in the Spirit Lands they would not be whole, we believe that if we lose a body part, that , that portion of our Spirit will remain earth bound with the severed limb.

And that is why I am happy all people do not follow our ways or the organ transplant business would never have been.

I see I will learn so much here and I look forward to such exchanges!

 

[mdog]

I was shown very close to where an old Choctaw Chief was laid to rest.
This man would have to be a close direct ancestor of my family, and mine.
The Old Choctaws knew of the Ancient Hebrew, Levitical Priest's 12 courses
of Abijah. The Cherokees, of several if not all bands, know and practice
similar customs, festivals, as the Ancient Israelites.

They had lived in this land many long happy millennia, before the
Europeans came and took it. We supposedly have abolished slavery,
yet I've not heard of even the first Native American President. We
supposedly have religious freedom, yet it is persecuted more
continually. This has all been long bought and paid for, by
the blood and honor, of my Indian and also honorable White,
Great Fathers... Yet I cannot speak freely of these things.

In the spirit life, I believe the most considerate, willing to learn
and give, are qualified to be as priests, or servants, teachers
to the unlearned, for a millennium, of peace, from the bad
thoughts, continual temptations of the evil spirits...

Hey Crosse,

I've spent some time studying the Choctaw and Chickasaw and even got in touch with historians from both tribes. I was fascinated by the legend of the White Dog and how the tribe travelled from a place far to the west led by a sacred pole that pointed the direction for them to follow. I had a feeling that the pole might have been used to determine latitude, something like a cross staff. One of the historians confirmed that the tribes used a staff to determine the location of sacred sites. One of these sites was a sacred mound, Nanih Waiyah, located in the state of Mississippi. This mound has the same latitude as Akko, Acre, in Israel, a very old city. Another location far to the west with the same latitude is Victorio Peak in New Mexico. I have a couple questions about this legend that you might be able to help me with. Do you know how many years it took them to travel from the west to the site of Nanih Waiyah? Also, could it be that the white dog in the legend was a white man and not a dog?

Thanks, Crosse

 

[Crosse De Sign]

Hey Crosse,

I've spent some time studying the Choctaw and Chickasaw and even got in touch with historians from both tribes. I was fascinated by the legend of the White Dog and how the tribe travelled from a place far to the west led by a sacred pole that pointed the direction for them to follow. I had a feeling that the pole might have been used to determine latitude, something like a cross staff. One of the historians confirmed that the tribes used a staff to determine the location of sacred sites. One of these sites was a sacred mound, Nanih Waiyah, located in the state of Mississippi. This mound has the same latitude as Akko, Acre, in Israel, a very old city. Another location far to the west with the same latitude is Victorio Peak in New Mexico. I have a couple questions about this legend that you might be able to help me with. Do you know how many years it took them to travel from the west to the site of Nanih Waiyah? Also, could it be that the white dog in the legend was a white man and not a dog?

Thanks, Crosse

Hey mdog,

Very interesting questions. I honestly do not know the answers, to
either one of them. It sounds like I have some more studying to do.
I will acquire some info, if it is available, and read some books I know
have been written, but haven't read. It may take some time, but I will
get back to you, on this subject. I spoke with a couple of historians with
the Chickasaw Tribe, and one very nice lady smiled and said:

"We are of the mound builder culture", however, I have learned
that there were more, perhaps several cultures that had similar burial
practices, such as the Caddo's, for example, of S/W ARK., S/E OK., etc.

But there were many more than that, from vastly
different time frames, even millenniums...

As far as the Choctaw and Chickasaw tribal origins in the S/E,
I know the legend is, that they used "The Leaning Pole" to give them
the desired direction of travel, perhaps the latitude, as you mentioned.
The two brothers, Chick and Choc, each chose two different directions
to head off toward, related to the pole, creating the two tribes from one.

I think the Choctaws lands, were mostly in the area of what is now approx.
Alabama. While the Chickasaws home lands, were more approx. in MISS.,
which are of course, neighboring states. The Cherokees were to the north
and east of their lands, maybe even at one point, moved as far west as
TENN., and ARK., before their forced removal, and "Trail Of Tears" from
their lands in the beautiful Appalachians of Carolina, GA., etc. I'm sure
with your studies, you have already known more than this. I did hear
a legendary story of the Chickasaws tricking, defeating the Spanish,
I believe, and they are very proud of that important, potentially life
changing historical event...

Anyway, I will do some research, inquiring and digging, to see if I can
come up with some answers. Thanks for the info you shared, I obviously
have been told things, but not the "why" of beliefs, of long past events.
I don't know, if the information has even been passed down this far,
from back then, or written down, to be interpreted fully in this age.

My Great Grandfather left the Cherokee Nation in N/E OK., and traveled
far south, through the Creek, Muskogee Nations to the Choctaw Nation
in S/E OK. There he chose to marry a fair, full blood Choctaw maiden.

He was supposedly numbered on the Dawes Rolls of 1907, I believe.
Grandma told me that he refused any lands or allotments, for him
or his family. He had blue eyes and fair skin, from early European
inter marriage, and said, "I don't want anything they have",
meaning the soldiers, and the Indians of his native birth.
There have been attempts to find his roll number, with
no success, so he was possibly removed, due to refusal.

So living with other whites, and mixed European Indian
peoples, he blended well, and lived satisfied, not to be
"Called an Indian". His family all worked hard, and also
suffered the hardships that were common of the time,
even more complicated, by his wild lifestyle, restlessness.

Don't know what exactly he saw as a child, but he never went
back to the Cherokee tribal lands, or seemed to have any known
interest, in any information of ancestry, or benefits. Almost like he
may have left, or ran away, due to some kind of severe trauma
that he experienced. It was remembered that he had serious
bitter resentment, though no one seemed to really know just
exactly why. I was told he worked and played hard (moonshine
and poker), and was known to have been seriously respected,
maybe even feared somewhat, for if a man made the mistake
of crossing him, that was the last mistake made by some.


Did you begin your research, because of some personal Tribal Ancestry?

Thanks again, for your very interesting info, questions, and interest.

 

[Crosse De Sign]

As Native People we are left wondering at HOW old a grave must be before it is open and the contents put on public display, there are many "Institutes of Higher Learning" that refuse to return the bones of our dead.

We feel if it is NOT OK to dig up a grave 1 day, 1 month, 1 year or 1 decade old why is it OK to disturb a grave that is 500 years old, at what age is the gave "Open season"?

I would not dig up a white mans grave no matter what the age but for some reason modern scholar's seem to think that the person in the grave has no living descendants so it is ok to dig them up and make nice museum displays of our peoples bones, a lot like the Egyptian Mummies, they forget or ignore the fact that these are someone's blood line relatives.

I feel that 95% of MD'ers and relic hunters are honorable and wouldn't rob a grave but it is the other 5% that have done great harm to our Culture and traditions, I ask you all this, If your phone just rang and you were informed that YOUR Grand Parents graves were just opened and the caller was inviting you to come see them on display at the local Museum HOW would you feel?

I am very easy going but when it comes to the continued exploitation of my Ancestors and our way of life I can become very militant out of respect and love for my people.

JRedHorse,

The close family friend, also of Choctaw-French Ancestry, who showed
me the approx. location of the Choctaw Chief's burial location, on his family's
land, also said that they were once contacted by archaeologists. They wanted
to dig up the Chief. They were flatly turned down. Among the areas, that my
folks had been born, lived, worked, and spent their lives.

Lumber, blacksmithing, farming, driving mules and teams, until they
could get ahead and save up enough, or to trade, and get used cars
and trucks at first, then trucking, etc. Observing deadly outlaws, all
coming and going through their country. The knowledge of others
unknown recovery, missed finds and losses, of buried and
secreted, stolen, then forgotten golden treasures...

Raising kids, working hard, paying tax and Social Security, when the
employers, would actually pay it. They didn't have the best, or the
worst of life, in this world. Most of them lived honestly, though
not perfectly, but desired, and strove to exist honorably. They
knew mostly, and lived, by the white man's ways. It's the way
they were raised, and though most were not that educated,
though wizened from pure, real working life. They had all
loved where they lived, the choice of their fathers, a
great place, and were a happy, intelligent family,
to live and work with, and be around.

Needless to say, they lost all of their Native American Heritage,
and not only, any US government compensation due to them.
They also lost the knowledge of their history, ancient customs.

They took their place, however minute, in the building, and
defense, of the country. I have had the pleasure to have
known some of them, the old timers, now almost all gone.

I have noticed, that they did retain, perhaps through inherited
DNA, vivid instinct, and the value of living honorably, and sensed
this in them, as they did in me. I was glad, that I traveled to meet,
and live with them. To get to know, laugh with, love them. Even as
the clannish hillbillies that they were. If I could, I would have gladly
chosen to be born in their generation, lived, worked, and died with
them, in that seemingly, totally different world, of the recent past...

That was just a few years ago, in terms of the scope of time, but in
culture and values, seems a whole different age ago...

Where hand made tools on ancient village sites, as old as the hills and
old worn mountains, still lay unseen. Older than the waterways, every
one, where The Ancient Ones lived, hunted, and traveled...

 

[Crosse De Sign]

I said no record of their Indian ancestry...

Although, I plan to travel, to go see my last Great Aunt.

My much loved Indian Grandma's youngest sister, 93+ yrs. young.
Still walks well, and of good sound mind.

She claims to have signed some of our people up in the Choctaw Nation Roll,
"but they didn't believe me, that I could get it done" she said, and so none
of the other old timers, really ever checked it out...

 

[L.C. BAKER]

At what age is a grave fair game?
I have debated such in an archaeology course.
Personally I feel the dead should be left alone. If a science organisation wanted permission to exhume me and had my sound mind consent when alive that would be fine.
Those bones and relics that for rare reasons need relocating should be done by those who care for them in an empathetic way. Those who would uncover to learn, (if uncovering or molesting can be accepted) should be direct relation.
What was done in the past after a death mattered to those involved. Time does not change the cause of their actions. The very real emotions and beliefs and ceremony are still followed today with differences that do not void the past's respects.
It won't matter to me if I'm disturbed should burial follow. Kinda hope it would bother others though.

If you are digging up a grave it is never acceptable to me, unless there is a legal reason to do so. If you are looking for something that was left for you to find, it will not be in or directly on a grave. Hallowed ground should always be treated with the up-most respect, and should always be left looking better than it did when you arrived. Just my two cents.

L.C. Baker

 

[Crosse De Sign]

If you are digging up a grave it is never acceptable to me, unless there is a legal reason to do so. If you are looking for something that was left for you to find, it will not be in or directly on a grave. Hallowed ground should always be treated with the up-most respect, and should always be left looking better than it did when you arrived. Just my two cents.

L.C. Baker

Yeah, a long time ago, a guy said his dad had seen what
appeared to be a bone, or something on his property,
while out walking, not far from a river, where Indians
were thought to have once hunted and camped.

The man left hurriedy, spooked by the sight, and
may not have checked to determine age, he was
just wanting to forget he ever saw it, like bad sign.

Unfortunately, the level of respect seems to have
greatly diminished, with the fairly recent horrible
reports of vandalism and theft in cemeteries, sad...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd evening, I am a bit curious. is there a square meter of ground of earth that doesn't have history or a body buried it at one time or another? As for war graves, my interest in them consists in solely the historical value. Before any start, I started out in WW-2 in the Guadalcanal campaign. I never considered the Japanese soldier as a subhuman but a man that was fighting for what he believed in or was trained , as I was. That didn't stop any intention of killing him before he killed me. In fact my adopted sister was a full blooded Japanese and damn cute
So who does grave protection apply to ?? every one, or only selected few ? Coffee ?

 

[mdog]

People, I love to exchange ideas on the forums but for the past four months I've been having a terrible time posting. I have to log in several times just to get one post accepted. I've had enough. I wish you all well and thanks for sharing with me over the years.

Rick