Do you...you...feel like I do?

[1320]

Back in 2012 Boomer made a post that made complete sense to the skeptical side of me. No one responded out loud to this thoughts, including me however, I wonder if anyone other than me is an agreement?

"part 2: if swift was smart he would never put his name near the mine. after one trip they would know how to get there.
why all the carvings? to sale land, to sale maps and it would be a way to send people looking in the wrong direction."

I try to put myself in Swifts' shoes as best I can. As a guy that makes an average living, if I discover a means of wealth, my lips are pretty much sealed. However, if I were of considerable wealth, it's likely I wouldn't give much of a damn who knew what I found. The silver just wouldn't mean that much to me. It's hard for me to imagine what it would be like in the mid 1700's, maybe you could trust others, leave clues and write journals and not worry about it. Perhaps Swift was well to do when he made his discovery.

I find much difficulty buying into the legend as it's largely told, too many holes in it for me. Is it possible that only the beginning of the tale is true, that John Swift found silver and the rest of the story just became garbage over the years?

 

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[Crow]

Sadly that is the curse for all of those who research into treasure legends.

Like all treasure legends they bewitch us. Some will be just myths based on a real person or event just enough to give a little credibility. Others will have more to Tell and a few on very rare occasions can be even the real deal.

One thing I can guarantee you they will be picked over forever and day by those seeking the real deal.

Crow

 

[KY Hiker]

That is possible. I think your going at this by putting yourself in Swift's shoes is good perspective. Once the route (Indian Trace) is known all that is needed are guide posts (turkey tracks, landmarks ect.) and a good judgement of time to target so to speak. If it took him, lets say, 32-35 days to make the trip from X location to Y location then all that would be needed would be the sequence of marks whether they be landmarks or carvings to give turn by turn direction. After all, once you are in a valley during the 9 months of a year there are leaves on the trees, all the bends around the ridges begin to look the same except for certain outcroppings. Imagine traveling by horse and foot for hundreds of miles in mostly mountainous wooded terrain that was unmapped. Keeping a journal would be expedient to the process. Especially having to backtrack to get back out several months later. I think the more probable reason Swift never found his way back was not due just to blindness but rather the marking of trees. The marks could have been chopped out or the tree chopped down by Indians or others to prevent their return. Greed had to be a factor among those in his party and in Swift's absence who knows what might have take place.

 

[KY Hiker]

Bumping this topic to the top as it needs more discussion than it got originally....

1320 makes some good points.

So we have time traveled in days (pick your version of the journal and which trip about 30-40days) and a typical foot traveler can move around 2.2 mph on average. Depending on the time of year (days are shorter in the winter) you only have so many hours to walk each day at this latitude. About 14hrs daylight in the middle of summer and around 10 in winter. 14x2.2=30.8miles Max in summer per day... 10x2.2=22miles Max in winter per day....lets say 26.4miles per day average Max distance traveled with no breaks summer and winter...I would be more apt to say the animals needed water and grazing time and so would the men. That may bring the travel distance per day down to 15-20 miles once you think about time for setting up and taking down camp and food prep in the morning and evening. So...30-40 days at an average of roughly 15-20 miles per day traveled comes to around 450-550 miles maximum if all went well.
If they followed the traces they would make good time but would be in danger because the Indians used them as well. If they stuck to the stream beds to avoid the Indians they would take much longer as they wind around the hills and mountains.
So if Swift would be foolish to mark his way right to the mine, how would one go about finding his way? Would he use landmarks where he could and make marks where there are no landmarks? I would guess that a landmark and his own marks would be used at critical turns until right up to the last landmark.... and from there either take a heading or keep it in memory to go the last bit to the mine(s). He would have no time to put or place marks or landmarks to lead people away. As a matter of fact, most of the landmarks in the journals are of the area immediately around the mine/furnace. Also, the journal is not written for his own reference (at least the ones I have been exposed to) but to lead others to the place(s) because it is written in past tense from his own memory. Probably after he got out of jail and while trying to relocate his workings. Did his memory fail like his eyesight? Or was it just a way to generate funds selling journals while out searching? Or was it all a lie and he was selling them in hopes of selling the land granted to him in Kentucky?

 

[KY Hiker]

Back in 2012 Boomer made a post that made complete sense to the skeptical side of me. No one responded out loud to this thoughts, including me however, I wonder if anyone other than me is an agreement?

"part 2: if swift was smart he would never put his name near the mine. after one trip they would know how to get there.
why all the carvings? to sale land, to sale maps and it would be a way to send people looking in the wrong direction."

I try to put myself in Swifts' shoes as best I can. As a guy that makes an average living, if I discover a means of wealth, my lips are pretty much sealed. However, if I were of considerable wealth, it's likely I wouldn't give much of a damn who knew what I found. The silver just wouldn't mean that much to me. It's hard for me to imagine what it would be like in the mid 1700's, maybe you could trust others, leave clues and write journals and not worry about it. Perhaps Swift was well to do when he made his discovery.

I find much difficulty buying into the legend as it's largely told, too many holes in it for me. Is it possible that only the beginning of the tale is true, that John Swift found silver and the rest of the story just became garbage over the years?

The original thread is here: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/lost-silver-mines-jonathan-swift/323458-swift-map-2-a.html

 

[Terry Soloman]

Sorry, I can't help myself sometimes

 

[KY Hiker]

If Swift's party could have traveled 450 miles or more in the time given in the journals (30-40days) how far could they have gone?
Here are some 'as the crow flys' distances to known landmarks from the journals via google maps.
From old town Alexandria to Castlewood, VA is 316 miles.
Castlewood to Cumberland Gap is 77 miles.
Castlewood to Pound gap 27 miles.
From Cumberland gap to red river gorge is 89 miles.
From Louisa to red river gorge is 65 miles.
From Alexandria to Pound gap is 325 miles.
From Pound gap to red river gorge is 74 miles.
From Alexandria to red river gorge is 366 miles.
From Martin's Station (cabin) North East to Pound gap is 60miles! This is a reference to the Filson Land entry.
The red river gorge area is North of Martin's Station and would not fit the Filson reference but the Pound area does exactly.
I believe Mr. Gibson made his find around Jenkins? Don't know exactly where pigeon water cave is...
I picked the red river gorge only because of Swift camp creek and its the furthest West of most of the accepted possible mine locations. Its also close to the maximum range they could have traveled in the time frame given. Remember that these are 'as the crow flys' and not overland distances.
I noticed using the map that the longest route would be to Castlewood and then through the Cumberland gap. Unless the mine location was in the Southern part of Pine Mt. it wouldn't make much sense traveling that route. The most direct route would be Westward toward Pound gap then to Louisa (Big Sandy forks area) and on to the mines... either SW along Levisa fork or West toward Paintsville or NW toward Carter Caves/Caney ck areas.

 

[1320]

As best I can tell (by exhaustive research) Swift Camp and Swift Camp Creek are relatively "new" place names in John Swift speak. There was a huge assumption by the men that stumbled on and named them as such. "Camp" criteria hasn't changed much if any over the years and camps have a tendency to be reused over and over without existing knowledge of the previous camp. War of 1812 camps were used during the Civil War. Not all of them but without doubt, some of them. Thousands of Native American sites have thousands of years of interspersed occupation. No one can say for certain why those men thought they had found Johns' camp, probably just camp talk.

 

[KY Hiker]

Swift Camp Creek got its name from the town of Campton. Campton was called Camp town before that and is associated to both Swift and Soldiers Camp. Which soldiers and from what time I do not know. As I recall it was founded in the mid 1800s?

1320 you posted a topo map with notes around the margins. Look at the right hand side margin about Campton.
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1618362&d=1533300418

 

[1320]

Sorry, I can't help myself sometimes

Was honestly listening to this when I started this thread...lol

 

[Rebel - KGC]

SPOOKY!

 

[Curtis]

On the markings, if you want to know why he did it, just go out into the national forest and hike just 50 miles and then try to follow that same trail again after 2-3 month, see if you can follow it ...I bet you cant. This is what is a very common thread threw many many lost treasure stories--just look at the documented civil war stories about when Morgan went thru Ohio...people buried all kinds of stuff and weren't able to find it later..the rebels buried stuff and came back years later and couldn't find the stuff-why? they didn't mark the place!

 

[KY Hiker]

That makes sense, at least for the stash locations. As for the route to and from the mines, the majority of the trip should have been on or along the traces don't you think?

 

[KY Hiker]

If Swift's party could have traveled 450 miles or more in the time given in the journals (30-40days) how far could they have gone?
Here are some 'as the crow flys' distances to known landmarks from the journals via google maps.
From old town Alexandria to Castlewood, VA is 316 miles.
Castlewood to Cumberland Gap is 77 miles.
Castlewood to Pound gap 27 miles.
From Cumberland gap to red river gorge is 89 miles.
From Louisa to red river gorge is 65 miles.
From Alexandria to Pound gap is 325 miles.
From Pound gap to red river gorge is 74 miles.
From Alexandria to red river gorge is 366 miles.
From Martin's Station (cabin) North East to Pound gap is 60miles! This is a reference to the Filson Land entry.
The red river gorge area is North of Martin's Station and would not fit the Filson reference but the Pound area does exactly.
I believe Mr. Gibson made his find around Jenkins? Don't know exactly where pigeon water cave is...
I picked the red river gorge only because of Swift camp creek and its the furthest West of most of the accepted possible mine locations. Its also close to the maximum range they could have traveled in the time frame given. Remember that these are 'as the crow flys' and not overland distances.
I noticed using the map that the longest route would be to Castlewood and then through the Cumberland gap. Unless the mine location was in the Southern part of Pine Mt. it wouldn't make much sense traveling that route. The most direct route would be Westward toward Pound gap then to Louisa (Big Sandy forks area) and on to the mines... either SW along Levisa fork or West toward Paintsville or NW toward Carter Caves/Caney ck areas.

Just to add to this thought, there are versions that mention going by way of Ft Pitt (Pittsburg, PA). It would not make any sense to go by land from Ft Pitt to the Kanawa and Sandy but it would if on a raft/boat on the Ohio river. It would be much quicker too, but how would they move their pack animals on rafts? I think it is doubtful this route was taken at all because of the extra distance up to Ft Pitt then SW along the banks of the Ohio...