DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[vor]

If your interest in the subject is great, or you are like SDCFIA and VOR, and you want a lot of referencing, they are also a great source.
Mike

Nah, I believe SDCFIA's synopsis is sufficient for now. If it starts with Geronimo I know where it is headed.

But since it is floating around as a pdf.....maybe down the road.

I keep telling people to get those books...
Mike

Ya think?




Edit for Mike:
Mike
I know there is nothing we can say to get you to look at the "evidence" objectively so I will not even try. And I know there is nothing we can say to stop the hawking of a book so I will not even try. But if you could leave me out of your comments, I will try to not reply. Thx.

 

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[gollum]

Nah, I believe SDCFIA's synopsis is sufficient for now. If it starts with Geronimo I know where it is headed.

But since it is floating around as a pdf.....maybe down the road.



Ya think?

I know I sound like a shill for the author, but I have all the other books on VP (100 tons of gold, Treasure at Victoria Peak, etc etc etc) While I like them, they leave an awful lot out in the way of details. Not much is documented either. They are good for learning the basic story. The Gold House Trilogy gets into the grit of the subject. When "John" was researching, if a name came up that was dead, he searched and found surviving family members and friends and interviewed them.

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

I would imagine that most, if not all of the evidence that exists to be collected about VP has been done so in these books. Having expectations of evidence beyond what the books offer will require you to go find it yourself, unless you are lucky enough to encounter someone with the answers willing to share them with you.

 

[sdcfia]

I would imagine that most, if not all of the evidence that exists to be collected about VP has been done so in these books. Having expectations of evidence beyond what the books offer will require you to go find it yourself, unless you are lucky enough to encounter someone with the answers willing to share them with you.

I will admit that as I plow through this book, I'm getting a lot of background information in one place. I don't like the way the book is organized, but thank god the writer provided an index, making Book 1 a usable reference for names and events, as Mike suggested. Book 1 is slanted to put a Noss spin on everything of course, which tends to present Doc's role as sort of a victim instead of a perpetrator. That's understandable considering it's a family archive. I'm pleasantly surprised to see so much Caballo/Willie/Buster etc. stuff in the book so far, which is what interests me. One surprising observation so far: it seems like a bunch of folks in the 1930s knew exactly where Willie's cave was and had no problem just walking right up to it and going inside, including Doc. At least that's what the stories say.

You are correct that if you hope to actually locate one of these treasure sites, if they truly exist as presented to the public, you certainly won't find the key in a book. You'll need valid info from somebody who was there or from a private document. I expect we'll never really know the ultimate truth about the Caballos in the 30s. My interest lies in the source of all that gold. I have a few ideas about that, and this book actually hints at one theory - one that you might apply to many treasure sites around the country.

 

[UncleMatt]

I am torn between wanting to discuss what the book says and at the same time not giving away everything and hurting book sales. Gollum, what do you think is appropriate on that front, since you know the authors? Would they object to an open discussion here of the book's contents? I will defer to your judgement on that front.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen. always start a story from it's beginning to understand it. Who, how, and why is the metal in those deposits?

Hint

 

[UncleMatt]

What evidence do we have that the map above represents "the beginning" of the story at VP? Or the Caballos? And exactly what metals are shown on the map?

 

[gollum]

VOR,

Since I look at everything objectively, I won't leave you out of my comments. I only keep referencing the books because they are the best reference source written to date. Since SDCFIA got a copy, you see how he agrees with that observation? Because they are.

Exactly what objective evidence is it that you think I am ignoring? Be specific, please. Remember, I have said this before, other than a "nothing better to do" interest in just wanting to know, the origins of the Caballo/VP Gold don't really concern me. My main interest is in if there still exists any wealth to be found there. Unless they missed a cavern or two, I believe everything under VP is gone. Has been for many years. I believe the source of Willie's Gold may still hold some value (unless Fred Drolte drilled into Willie's Cave and there is some evidence to support that belief). I also believe that there are other sources of already mined wealth in the Caballos/San Andres, that have never been tapped. Do you think I REALLY care if Doc Noss was nothing more than a huckster? Do you think I care if Willie Doughit was a multiple murderer? Not in the least. All I care about is what parts of their treasure stories are true. What part of their treasure (if any) is still hidden. That's why, to me, Book#1 was interesting for background reference, but books 2 and 3 that detail what was taken from where interest me the most. Because of that, I know that (in 1961) poor Pvt. Robert Jones was robbed of the find he made at Ft Huachuca in 1942. Nothing left to find there, so "X" it off my list. VP was most likely wiped out in 1961, so "X" that off my list. Was Willie's Cave real? Yes. Did somebody else find it and murder the Loriuses and Heberers in it? Possibly. Did Fred Drolte drill into it and get what was left? Possibly. One day, Drolte up and let all of his employees go. He paid each of them about $100,000 severance. At least two people saw Drolte hauling something away from his "HOLE" late at night on several occasions.

SDCFIA,

My first thought after reading everything that Ova said, was that, even though Doc dumped her, she was still in love with him, and everything she said about Doc and VP till her dying day was to keep him in a good light.

I promise, the more you read, the more you will find in those books. They also gave me a starting point for finding other people whose relatives were involved. I have found a few people not previously interviewed because of those books.

.........and yes, I have already told the author that I REALLY believe he should either print, or include a CD with quality versions of all the pictures and referenced documents. The reason for the tiny font (which I hated as well), was because he had to choose between leaving information out and the page count. While it is bothersome, in the end, I agree with him. Keep the info in, make the font small, and keep the page count to around 1,000.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Matt,

The books have been out long enough, that you won't significantly damage any sales by discussing specific things from them. Hell, there is so much knowledge in the three volumes, you couldn't spoil much by writing a book about the books.

I say go ahead.

Mike

 

[johnmark29020]

I think we have been thinking to small. When I started researching the ldm. I was only focused on waltz. What I found was evidence of a larger mining operation that had been abandoned for one reason or another. Looking into vp and comparing NP maps to my location that I found while in AZ. I think there was a mining operation that started in Mexico and went to California. I dont think we are dealing with multiple mining companies. Instead I think it was one large operation. Waltz,noss and others found peaces of that operation. So we are focused on the individual accounts. I believe we should see how they fit together.
In other words. I think the source of the gold at VP and the Ldm site are caches from a large outfit. So why were they abandoned. Thats the real question for me.

 

[UncleMatt]

One thing I have noticed while reading is that the questions I form actually get answered later on in the text. My biggest question at this point in time is why Noss didn't simply use his "secret entrance"when the main entrance was blocked by the incompetent use of 13 sticks of dynamite? Why go to all the trouble to open up the entrance from the top of VP after the blast? Why form a mining company and involve many people prior to WWII, if you already have a way to access the treasure? If the goal was retrieval of the treasure he claimed was there, why the show?

And he claimed he buried gold bars around VP as a way to cache them until he could sell them. In the book they claim a government topographic map was marked with locations by Doc's assistant, and that this map is still in the possession of the Noss family. Want to prove there was gold at VP? Finding some of those cached bars is perhaps the only way anyone will ever do so in a verifiable way.

 

[sdcfia]

One thing I have noticed while reading is that the questions I form actually get answered later on in the text. My biggest question at this point in time is why Noss didn't simply use his "secret entrance"when the main entrance was blocked by the incompetent use of 13 sticks of dynamite? Why go to all the trouble to open up the entrance from the top of VP after the blast? Why form a mining company and involve many people prior to WWII, if you already have a way to access the treasure? If the goal was retrieval of the treasure he claimed was there, why the show?

And he claimed he buried gold bars around VP as a way to cache them until he could sell them. In the book they claim a government topographic map was marked with locations by Doc's assistant, and that this map is still in the possession of the Noss family. Want to prove there was gold at VP? Finding some of those cached bars is perhaps the only way anyone will ever do so in a verifiable way.

His step-daughter kept asking a similar question, "If you've got a big treasure at VP, why are you continuing to spend so much time in the Caballos?" It seems pretty obvious he had no treasure room at VP, except for the staging of a recovery from the top to draw peoples' attention there. The entrance "accident" and all the work trying to clear the debris was likely just a dog and pony show. Secret entrance? Even a good liar sometimes slips up.

Here's an interesting Noss tidbit that seems weird. Since when do the Masons invite a rough and tumble part breed Cherokee with a history of trouble with the law into their organization? Doc is buried in the Masonic Cemetery in Las Cruces. And if Ova loved Doc so much, why did she put him in an unmarked grave there?

 

[UncleMatt]

That's easy, to prevent people from desecrating Doc's grave.

And its a funny characteristic of most treasure hunters: they get addicted to the chase. Even with treasure in hand, if there is rumor of more over the next hill, they head that way...

 

[UncleMatt]

I am open to the idea that VP was a distraction from the Caballos. Eyewitness reports such as Benny offered are suspect, simply due to the fact Doc may have paid him to lie, which would explain how Benny was able to but the houses and lots he did, and give a couple of $10,000 checks to charity from his deathbed. But then his wealth could have been pilfered from VP's treasure when he often worked there alone as well.

I still think VP deserves a serious look. The fact the military was seen operating there with heavy equipment, shoring timbers, and generators is a strong tell for me that treasure was there of some kind at some point. Especially for cached gold bars in the vicinity of VP. Even if they originated from the Caballos, they would still be a great treasure to find for all kinds of reasons!

 

[markmar]

A good question for a new scenario : Was the small cache at VP a Doc's lure or a Willie's lure ? If was the second , I believe Noss never found the Willie's main cache in Caballos .

 

[sdcfia]

I am open to the idea that VP was a distraction from the Caballos. Eyewitness reports such as Benny offered are suspect, simply due to the fact Doc may have paid him to lie, which would explain how Benny was able to but the houses and lots he did, and give a couple of $10,000 checks to charity from his deathbed. But then his wealth could have been pilfered from VP's treasure when he often worked there alone as well.

I still think VP deserves a serious look. The fact the military was seen operating there with heavy equipment, shoring timbers, and generators is a strong tell for me that treasure was there of some kind at some point. Especially for cached gold bars in the vicinity of VP. Even if they originated from the Caballos, they would still be a great treasure to find for all kinds of reasons!

If you believe all the stories, then Noss may have stashed a couple hundred bars in a variety of places near VP (on the military reservation), and possibly elsewhere near the roads accessing VP from the west, coming in from T or C or Las Cruces. It seems reasonable to assume that a paranoid guy would make stashes away from the place everyone was watching. There are a lot of greasewood bushes in that Jornada that a guy could hide a bar of gold under if he knew how to return to the right one. Also, a shallow hole near a certain fencepost would work. Good luck Matt!

 

[UncleMatt]

I never said I was going out there to look for them! lol The paperwork alone would be an obstacle, and that's a lot of area to cover with a metal detector!

Now if the topo map the Noss family is holding was made available...

 

[johnmark29020]

If you believe all the stories, then Noss may have stashed a couple hundred bars in a variety of places near VP (on the military reservation), and possibly elsewhere near the roads accessing VP from the west, coming in from T or C or Las Cruces. It seems reasonable to assume that a paranoid guy would make stashes away from the place everyone was watching. There are a lot of greasewood bushes in that Jornada that a guy could hide a bar of gold under if he knew how to return to the right one. Also, a shallow hole near a certain fencepost would work. Good luck Matt!

Why wouldn't he cache his gold closer to his home. In case he needed to get to it quickly. Where was doc living when he found the vp treasure.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

H Matt, you posted---> What evidence do we have that the map above represents "the beginning" of the story at VP?

Case 'I' said so, and by inference, The Jesuits. After all my initales are not JC without reason.

Coffee?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Guliloto, you posted ---> the origins of the Caballo/VP Gold don't really concern me.


Ah but it does, you first have to explain the possibility of them actually existing from an actual mining group capable of producing that much. Only the Sonora / Chihuahua group were capable. As for a single mine, forget it, there would be a tailing pile the size of Victorio peak it self. or they evaporated and Noss, etc. were lying